The Case for the Global Flood
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Forum Monk
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The Case for the Global Flood
It has been claimed on this forum that the great flood of Noah was a local flood of the Meospotamia region. It has beed further claimed that the entire population of the earth was destroyed in this flood because people only lived in this region. This is a necessary construct because, if one believes people existed outside of Mesopotamia, then the Bible is false by claiming all people on earth were destroyed. Yet to make such a claim as support of science evidence, ignores scientific evidence to the contrary that people were scattered across the entire globe and evidence of their existence in various places stretches back to the beginnings of Homo Sapien as a species. One of the principle reasons for believing the Bible referred to a local flood is simply the fact that scientific evidence for a global flood does not exist.
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Forum Monk
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The Testimony of the Old Testament.
Genesis Chapter 6 begins the flood narrative by presenting that God was displeased with the corruption and evil that filled the earth. "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them." (Gen 6:5-7) Genesis also tells us the corruption had permeated into all living creatures, not just man. "The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth." (Gen 6:11-13) While we are given no further details how the entire earth had become corrupted, the scope of the corruption is clearly stated: all flesh. We know this includes animals because when God instructs Noah about which animals to bring upon the ark, he says: "And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female." (Gen 6:19). All flesh in this verse clearly includes animals.
In chapter 7 of Genesis, the actual flood event begins and God again reminds Noah of its purpose. "...and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth." (Gen 7:4) This verse specifies every living substance made is to be destroyed. Notice what it does not say. It does not say, "from the face of the earth will I destroy every living substance". The distinction is intentional and profound that there can be know doubt the scope is related to living things not geographical places. In verse 11 we are told, all the fountains of the deep were opened up and windows of heaven were opened. The implication is globally cataclysmic as not some of the fountains were broken open; all of them were opened. Later in chapter 7, the enormous scale of the flood is illuminated. "And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters. And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered." (Gen 7:18-20). The author of Genesis is letting the reader know this flood was no ordinary flood as it prevailed greatly upon the earth and covered the hills that were under the "whole heaven". Endless waters which even covered the highest mountains. The end result, as tragic as it was, completely fulfilled God's purpose, to destroy all living things upon the earth. "And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark." (Gen 7: 21-23). Repeatedly we are told all flesh died, every man, all who breathed (animals breathe also), every living substance completely destroyed and "Noah only" and those with him on the ark survived.
So Genesis tells us specifically that all living substance was to be destroyed. The principle emphasis of the text, how pervasive the destruction is to be, ALL FLESH. The location of the flesh is irrelevant.
It is very important to note that from the time these words were committed to writing and began to be translated into other languages, no one has ever interpreted the hebrew word for "world" (ersatz) to mean "land", "Country" or "region" when speaking of the flood. The reason is obvious when examining the context of the words and the principle emphasis of the language indicating the flood was to be a judgement on all living things in whom was the breath of life. The Hebrew scholars from the earliest manuscripts until the time of Christ and even beyond have always rendered this word in Genesis 6 and 7 as "earth", never "region", and who would claim, that the Jews could not properly interpret their own Hebrew writing?
Genesis Chapter 6 begins the flood narrative by presenting that God was displeased with the corruption and evil that filled the earth. "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them." (Gen 6:5-7) Genesis also tells us the corruption had permeated into all living creatures, not just man. "The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth." (Gen 6:11-13) While we are given no further details how the entire earth had become corrupted, the scope of the corruption is clearly stated: all flesh. We know this includes animals because when God instructs Noah about which animals to bring upon the ark, he says: "And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female." (Gen 6:19). All flesh in this verse clearly includes animals.
In chapter 7 of Genesis, the actual flood event begins and God again reminds Noah of its purpose. "...and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth." (Gen 7:4) This verse specifies every living substance made is to be destroyed. Notice what it does not say. It does not say, "from the face of the earth will I destroy every living substance". The distinction is intentional and profound that there can be know doubt the scope is related to living things not geographical places. In verse 11 we are told, all the fountains of the deep were opened up and windows of heaven were opened. The implication is globally cataclysmic as not some of the fountains were broken open; all of them were opened. Later in chapter 7, the enormous scale of the flood is illuminated. "And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters. And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered." (Gen 7:18-20). The author of Genesis is letting the reader know this flood was no ordinary flood as it prevailed greatly upon the earth and covered the hills that were under the "whole heaven". Endless waters which even covered the highest mountains. The end result, as tragic as it was, completely fulfilled God's purpose, to destroy all living things upon the earth. "And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark." (Gen 7: 21-23). Repeatedly we are told all flesh died, every man, all who breathed (animals breathe also), every living substance completely destroyed and "Noah only" and those with him on the ark survived.
So Genesis tells us specifically that all living substance was to be destroyed. The principle emphasis of the text, how pervasive the destruction is to be, ALL FLESH. The location of the flesh is irrelevant.
It is very important to note that from the time these words were committed to writing and began to be translated into other languages, no one has ever interpreted the hebrew word for "world" (ersatz) to mean "land", "Country" or "region" when speaking of the flood. The reason is obvious when examining the context of the words and the principle emphasis of the language indicating the flood was to be a judgement on all living things in whom was the breath of life. The Hebrew scholars from the earliest manuscripts until the time of Christ and even beyond have always rendered this word in Genesis 6 and 7 as "earth", never "region", and who would claim, that the Jews could not properly interpret their own Hebrew writing?
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The Testimony of God's Promises
After the flood had subsided, God said to Noah, "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done." (Gen 8:21) Since all people have been destroyed, God commands Noah, "Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth..."(Gen 9:1) God in his wisdom knows the command will be disobeyed later when the people remain close together and begin to build the tower of Babel, so he repeats, "As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it." (Gen 9:7) When Adam and Eve were commanded to be fruitful and multiply and subdue the earth, the command was not repeated as it was here. Why? Because the command was followed in the preflood world. Man scattered throughout the planet as commanded and subdued the entire earth. The descendents of Noah are much more reluctant to obey the words of the Lord and so God confirms his intention. In the next verses, God establishes his convenant with Noah, but not only Noah, ""I now establish my covenant with you and with your descendants after you and with every living creature that was with you—the birds, the livestock and all the wild animals, all those that came out of the ark with you—every living creature on earth. I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be cut off by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth." (Gen 9:9-11). It is very important to realize that God makes two promises. First to never again destroy all life by a flood. Second, to never again flood the entire world. If the flood had been a local flood where all men lived clustered together in a region, the first covenant would have sufficed. The second makes it clear beyond doubt the flood was global.
Local floods have continued to this day, often with devastating consequences and thousand of lives lost. God never breaks a promise. This fact alone tells the reader that God promises to never send a flood of the type which devastated Noah's world; a world-wide castastrophe which destroyed all air breathing life.
After the flood had subsided, God said to Noah, "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done." (Gen 8:21) Since all people have been destroyed, God commands Noah, "Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth..."(Gen 9:1) God in his wisdom knows the command will be disobeyed later when the people remain close together and begin to build the tower of Babel, so he repeats, "As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it." (Gen 9:7) When Adam and Eve were commanded to be fruitful and multiply and subdue the earth, the command was not repeated as it was here. Why? Because the command was followed in the preflood world. Man scattered throughout the planet as commanded and subdued the entire earth. The descendents of Noah are much more reluctant to obey the words of the Lord and so God confirms his intention. In the next verses, God establishes his convenant with Noah, but not only Noah, ""I now establish my covenant with you and with your descendants after you and with every living creature that was with you—the birds, the livestock and all the wild animals, all those that came out of the ark with you—every living creature on earth. I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be cut off by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth." (Gen 9:9-11). It is very important to realize that God makes two promises. First to never again destroy all life by a flood. Second, to never again flood the entire world. If the flood had been a local flood where all men lived clustered together in a region, the first covenant would have sufficed. The second makes it clear beyond doubt the flood was global.
Local floods have continued to this day, often with devastating consequences and thousand of lives lost. God never breaks a promise. This fact alone tells the reader that God promises to never send a flood of the type which devastated Noah's world; a world-wide castastrophe which destroyed all air breathing life.
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Forum Monk
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The Testimony of the New Testament
More compelling evidence for the belief in a global flood is found in the writing of the Biblical New Testament. Jesus Christ made an important confirmation of the validity of the flood and the existence of Noah when he said, "Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all." (Luke 17:26-27) This is corroboarated in Matthew 24:38.
In other places in the New Testament, we can see the Christian leaders of the early church truly believed the flood was global. For example, Peter illuminates the teaching of His Master Jesus Christ. "if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;" (2 Peter 2:5). The greek word translated world is "kosmos" which is never interpreted as "region" or "country". "Kosmos" speaks of the totality of existence. Later, Peter speaks of world-wide judgement and the destruction of the earth by fire. He makes mention of the primordial waters from which the earth was formed and states they are the same used to destroy the earth in Noah's day. "But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men." (2 Peter 3:5-7). Again the word used is "Kosmos". Peter links the final destruction of the earth and unglodly men to the former judgement which took place during the time of Noah. A judgement which destroyed the earth and thus all ungodly men. All men except Noah and his family. The author of Hebrews confirms the fact that the flood was a judgement against the world ("kosmos") when he states, "By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith." (Heb 11:7). The condemnation of "kosmos" suggests the totalilty of existence, not a portion of it.
Throughout the early history of the Christian church, the writings of the early church fathers indicate without exception, the universal belief, that the flood was global. This is reflected in the wrtings and teachings of Eusebius, Augustin, Africanus, Bishop John of Nikiu, and Sir Isaac Newton.
More compelling evidence for the belief in a global flood is found in the writing of the Biblical New Testament. Jesus Christ made an important confirmation of the validity of the flood and the existence of Noah when he said, "Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all." (Luke 17:26-27) This is corroboarated in Matthew 24:38.
In other places in the New Testament, we can see the Christian leaders of the early church truly believed the flood was global. For example, Peter illuminates the teaching of His Master Jesus Christ. "if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;" (2 Peter 2:5). The greek word translated world is "kosmos" which is never interpreted as "region" or "country". "Kosmos" speaks of the totality of existence. Later, Peter speaks of world-wide judgement and the destruction of the earth by fire. He makes mention of the primordial waters from which the earth was formed and states they are the same used to destroy the earth in Noah's day. "But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men." (2 Peter 3:5-7). Again the word used is "Kosmos". Peter links the final destruction of the earth and unglodly men to the former judgement which took place during the time of Noah. A judgement which destroyed the earth and thus all ungodly men. All men except Noah and his family. The author of Hebrews confirms the fact that the flood was a judgement against the world ("kosmos") when he states, "By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith." (Heb 11:7). The condemnation of "kosmos" suggests the totalilty of existence, not a portion of it.
Throughout the early history of the Christian church, the writings of the early church fathers indicate without exception, the universal belief, that the flood was global. This is reflected in the wrtings and teachings of Eusebius, Augustin, Africanus, Bishop John of Nikiu, and Sir Isaac Newton.
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Forum Monk
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The Testimony of Science
Is it actually possible that science can directly prove the flood was global and not just a local event? As far as the people of faith of concerned, yes. The believer of God who examines the scientific evidence and the scriptures is left with a problem trying to understand how science claims, no evidence exists for a universal flood and yet the Genesis narrative seems to be saying the flood was global. During the modern age, of scientific investigation, nearly every claim of "Noah's flood has been found" has been claimed by scientists who were themselves believers. And yet all of these claims were later shown to be either local events or unexplainable anomalies. The overwhelming evidence of Noah's flood has yet to be discovered. Therefore within the last few decades, many Christians have begun to question the interpretation of the scripture as universally accepted for thousands of years. Only four beliefs are possible:
1. The flood was global and all flesh died.
2. The flood was local and all men and some animals died
3. The flood was local but some men and animals were unaffected
4. The flood did not happen.
Virtually all Christians must accept either scenario 1 or 2 in order to avoid the untenable position that scriptures lied and God did not destroy all men. The only possible way to accept the universal judgement of God on man and believe in a local flood is to believe that all men lived in a local area which was flooded. It is for this reason that science actually proves scenario one.
Is it actually possible that science can directly prove the flood was global and not just a local event? As far as the people of faith of concerned, yes. The believer of God who examines the scientific evidence and the scriptures is left with a problem trying to understand how science claims, no evidence exists for a universal flood and yet the Genesis narrative seems to be saying the flood was global. During the modern age, of scientific investigation, nearly every claim of "Noah's flood has been found" has been claimed by scientists who were themselves believers. And yet all of these claims were later shown to be either local events or unexplainable anomalies. The overwhelming evidence of Noah's flood has yet to be discovered. Therefore within the last few decades, many Christians have begun to question the interpretation of the scripture as universally accepted for thousands of years. Only four beliefs are possible:
1. The flood was global and all flesh died.
2. The flood was local and all men and some animals died
3. The flood was local but some men and animals were unaffected
4. The flood did not happen.
Virtually all Christians must accept either scenario 1 or 2 in order to avoid the untenable position that scriptures lied and God did not destroy all men. The only possible way to accept the universal judgement of God on man and believe in a local flood is to believe that all men lived in a local area which was flooded. It is for this reason that science actually proves scenario one.
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Forum Monk
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The Science of Mathematics
It is not certain how many years elapsed from Adam to the flood of Noah, but based on the literal interpretation which presents the shortest possible amount of time, there were 1656 years. Scientists who have studied the statistics of population growth have examined the scriptural evidence in order to estimate, the approximate population of the world destroyed by the flood. Men lived to greater age in these years and the average considerations of age at first fatherhood and average number of children per generation have been considered. The results of one such study are quoted here:
"Although it is difficult to obtain an actual value of world population at the time of the flood, 5 to17 billion people would appear to be reasonable populations, with an average of around 10 billion. The best ages for childbirth would be 80.8 to 92 years with 6 to 7 children per family. This would be 20 to 18 generations produced from Adam to the Flood in 1656. The Book of Genesis indicates (Chapter 5) that each family had at least 5 children. Adam and Eve had a total of 7 (including Abel). However, Noah apparently had only 3 children. (It is possible that he could have had sons and daughters that aren't recorded and who weren't on the ark.)" (ref: http://www.ldolphin.org/pickett.html)
Another such study conducted independently corroborated the estimate.
"Population growth was very rapid for 1656 years until the Flood of Noah reduced the population to eight persons (4 couples). I have arbitrarily chosen the population at the time of the Flood as 9 billion, though as shown above this may be too conservative. Very little data on world population is available until recent times, so a few intermediate points have been selected. I have guessed the world population at the time of Abraham at 5 million. For example there seems to be broad agreement that the world population at the time of Christ was between 200 and 300 million." (ref: http://www.ldolphin.org/popul.html)
The number of people on the earth at the time of the flood is estimated to be nearly twice the number of people living on the world today. These kinds of numbers suggest several things. If the population of 9 or 10 billion people was concentrated into the flood plain of Mesopotamia, life would have impossible as the ability to grow food, dispose of waste, and find adequate living space could not have been overcome. It can also be reasoned that any population that large would have attained to a high degree of sophistication and knowledge in order to support such numbers upon the earth.
The preflood population was scattered over the face of the earth.
It is not certain how many years elapsed from Adam to the flood of Noah, but based on the literal interpretation which presents the shortest possible amount of time, there were 1656 years. Scientists who have studied the statistics of population growth have examined the scriptural evidence in order to estimate, the approximate population of the world destroyed by the flood. Men lived to greater age in these years and the average considerations of age at first fatherhood and average number of children per generation have been considered. The results of one such study are quoted here:
"Although it is difficult to obtain an actual value of world population at the time of the flood, 5 to17 billion people would appear to be reasonable populations, with an average of around 10 billion. The best ages for childbirth would be 80.8 to 92 years with 6 to 7 children per family. This would be 20 to 18 generations produced from Adam to the Flood in 1656. The Book of Genesis indicates (Chapter 5) that each family had at least 5 children. Adam and Eve had a total of 7 (including Abel). However, Noah apparently had only 3 children. (It is possible that he could have had sons and daughters that aren't recorded and who weren't on the ark.)" (ref: http://www.ldolphin.org/pickett.html)
Another such study conducted independently corroborated the estimate.
"Population growth was very rapid for 1656 years until the Flood of Noah reduced the population to eight persons (4 couples). I have arbitrarily chosen the population at the time of the Flood as 9 billion, though as shown above this may be too conservative. Very little data on world population is available until recent times, so a few intermediate points have been selected. I have guessed the world population at the time of Abraham at 5 million. For example there seems to be broad agreement that the world population at the time of Christ was between 200 and 300 million." (ref: http://www.ldolphin.org/popul.html)
The number of people on the earth at the time of the flood is estimated to be nearly twice the number of people living on the world today. These kinds of numbers suggest several things. If the population of 9 or 10 billion people was concentrated into the flood plain of Mesopotamia, life would have impossible as the ability to grow food, dispose of waste, and find adequate living space could not have been overcome. It can also be reasoned that any population that large would have attained to a high degree of sophistication and knowledge in order to support such numbers upon the earth.
The preflood population was scattered over the face of the earth.
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Forum Monk
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The Science of Anthropology and Archaeology
Most evidence of early man and his civilizations are dated within the the last 6000 to 10,000 years. Most Christians are already familiar with the ancient civilations which thrived at Sumer, Egypt, the Indus Valley, Peru, and the British Isles. Great monoliths and earthworks prove their existence and millions of surviving artifacts have been categorized and dated. These civilizations were clearly scattered over the earth.
No one can say for sure how these dates may coincide with the date of the great flood. Perhaps the Great Pyramids of Giza predate the flood, perhaps they were built after. The Bible implies that the preflood world was utterly destroyed as Peter likened the destruction to the same kind which will occur when the earth is consumed by fire.
So how far back must we go to find a time when men lived clustered in the region of Mesopotamia? According to science, early Indians were thriving in North America as early as 12,000 years ago and some evidence being revealed now, pushes that date back to about 18,000 years ago. Cave paintings and tools have been found in central Europe with date to 40,000 years ago. Skulls and tools have been found in Africa which push the date back to 100,000 years ago. Science is telling us, that man did not originate in Mesopotamia and there is no evidence within the last 100,000 years that is the only place early man lived. Given this, the Christian who believes the Bible and chooses to reconcile science must conclude that people existed throughout the earth and therefore the flood could only have been global.
Most evidence of early man and his civilizations are dated within the the last 6000 to 10,000 years. Most Christians are already familiar with the ancient civilations which thrived at Sumer, Egypt, the Indus Valley, Peru, and the British Isles. Great monoliths and earthworks prove their existence and millions of surviving artifacts have been categorized and dated. These civilizations were clearly scattered over the earth.
No one can say for sure how these dates may coincide with the date of the great flood. Perhaps the Great Pyramids of Giza predate the flood, perhaps they were built after. The Bible implies that the preflood world was utterly destroyed as Peter likened the destruction to the same kind which will occur when the earth is consumed by fire.
So how far back must we go to find a time when men lived clustered in the region of Mesopotamia? According to science, early Indians were thriving in North America as early as 12,000 years ago and some evidence being revealed now, pushes that date back to about 18,000 years ago. Cave paintings and tools have been found in central Europe with date to 40,000 years ago. Skulls and tools have been found in Africa which push the date back to 100,000 years ago. Science is telling us, that man did not originate in Mesopotamia and there is no evidence within the last 100,000 years that is the only place early man lived. Given this, the Christian who believes the Bible and chooses to reconcile science must conclude that people existed throughout the earth and therefore the flood could only have been global.
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Forum Monk
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Conclusions
The only reason today there is a move to find justification in the language of the Bible to support the local flood belief is because, according to well reasoned and intelligent people, the evidence for the global flood does not exist. However, changing the meaning of the text in spite of 3000 years of traditional belief has no historical precedence and is not necessary. Christians need to accept that simple fact the evidence does not exist. And why should it? The flood happened thousands of years ago as a sweeping judgement by God to purge the earth of all traces of the ungodly. Frankly, the evidence was destroyed. Further, there is no scientific reason to believe, that such evidence should exist. A six mile deep flood lasting less than one year would leave very little evidence of its presence in only a few hundred years. There is no reason to believe a significant layer of silt would remain and certainly no reason to believe that sedimentary rock would have formed. Even today, under the oceans at depths of multiple miles we do not find evidence of sedimentary rock formation even after thousands of years of standing water.
The purpose of the flood was judgement on all livings things. Many of the details are missing from the flood narrative because they are inconsequential to the message being communicated. Nevertheless a careful examination of the scriptures with logic and science can support the believe the flood was global. Saying otherwise is answering a question that is not being asked.
The evidence is gone. Trust God and move on.
The only reason today there is a move to find justification in the language of the Bible to support the local flood belief is because, according to well reasoned and intelligent people, the evidence for the global flood does not exist. However, changing the meaning of the text in spite of 3000 years of traditional belief has no historical precedence and is not necessary. Christians need to accept that simple fact the evidence does not exist. And why should it? The flood happened thousands of years ago as a sweeping judgement by God to purge the earth of all traces of the ungodly. Frankly, the evidence was destroyed. Further, there is no scientific reason to believe, that such evidence should exist. A six mile deep flood lasting less than one year would leave very little evidence of its presence in only a few hundred years. There is no reason to believe a significant layer of silt would remain and certainly no reason to believe that sedimentary rock would have formed. Even today, under the oceans at depths of multiple miles we do not find evidence of sedimentary rock formation even after thousands of years of standing water.
The purpose of the flood was judgement on all livings things. Many of the details are missing from the flood narrative because they are inconsequential to the message being communicated. Nevertheless a careful examination of the scriptures with logic and science can support the believe the flood was global. Saying otherwise is answering a question that is not being asked.
The evidence is gone. Trust God and move on.
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Gman
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Forum Monk wrote:So Genesis tells us specifically that all living substance was to be destroyed. The principle emphasis of the text, how pervasive the destruction is to be, ALL FLESH. The location of the flesh is irrelevant.
No... Animals are not moral creatures... The Bible clearly states that the flood mainly happened as a response to the wickedness of man, not animals.. If so the focus was on mankind.. Unfortunately many animals lived near the humans so they met their doom as well.Forum Monk wrote:The purpose of the flood was judgement on all livings things.
Here in Genesis 6:5 it is attributing to man's "thoughts of the heart" being "evil" all the time. Nowhere else in the Bible I can see where animals were attributed to having evil or immoral thoughts.. If they did, we better start reading them their rights in our courts of law...
Genesis 6:5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.
Here God grieves that he made man, not the animals directly...
Genesis: 6:6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.
Again because of the violence of man God is going to destroy the earth..
Genesis 6:11 Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. (in their local area).
Later confirmed in the NT..
2 Peter 2:5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others...
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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Forum Monk
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Like you, I doubt that the animals are considered "moral" creatures. But they do breath air, and the scripture explicits states that he would destroy everything which had the "breath of life".
Why did you omit this scripture in your rebuttal?
Gen 6:7 So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."
or this:
Gen 6:17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish.
Why did you omit this scripture in your rebuttal?
Gen 6:7 So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."
or this:
Gen 6:17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish.
Re: The Case for the Global Flood
Did he wipe out the Giants too? How come we don't have any fossil records of the Giants?
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Forum Monk
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Re: The Case for the Global Flood
Good question.Banky wrote:Did he wipe out the Giants too? How come we don't have any fossil records of the Giants?
How many fossilized skeletons of "normal" humans do we have that are less than 10,000 years old? (Assuming of course, the flood did occur within the last 10,000 years.)
Re: The Case for the Global Flood
Forum Monk wrote:The only reason today there is a move to find justification in the language of the Bible to support the local flood belief is because, according to well reasoned and intelligent people, the evidence for the global flood does not exist. However, changing the meaning of the text in spite of 3000 years of traditional belief has no historical precedence and is not necessary. Christians need to accept that simple fact the evidence does not exist. And why should it? The flood happened thousands of years ago as a sweeping judgement by God to purge the earth of all traces of the ungodly. Frankly, the evidence was destroyed.
Sounds like thi sjob was done by a true professional....well.....until h ewent and blabbed about it.
Seriously though.....Giants, sons of God, daughters of men, corruption.....God's grief and sorrow....it kind of sounds to me like someone made a mistake. Do you believe that man.....ALL of man (except the 7) should have been punished via drowning?
If I may predict the answer, it woul dbe "yes, because God can do no wrong. If he killed man with a flood, then it was right to do so." (my apologies if this is not your position).
So allow me to ask with reference to a more humane sense of morality. Removing God from the situation and, lets say some other source was to cast a similar judgement with similar results, is this conssitent with your understanding of "right" and "fair?"
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Forum Monk
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Re: The Case for the Global Flood
My judgement of what is "right and fair" is not God's judgement of what is "right and fair". And God is not judged by me.
As for the hypothetical question. It is only hypothetical so my opinion doesn't matter.
Many look at God's judgments as horrible acts of vengeance and violence, often appearing unmerciful and pitiless. But they often fail to recognise the years of forgiveness, mercy and grace, pleading for repentance and turning back to God, the warnings, the messages of coming sorrows. And when judgment does come, a remant is always saved. The nature of God is not judgment although He warns judgment is inevitable. He has a heart of mercy, grace and love. And in the end, it is man who suffers the consequences of his decisions and his actions. This is why He pleads with us today to choose life.
As for the hypothetical question. It is only hypothetical so my opinion doesn't matter.
Many look at God's judgments as horrible acts of vengeance and violence, often appearing unmerciful and pitiless. But they often fail to recognise the years of forgiveness, mercy and grace, pleading for repentance and turning back to God, the warnings, the messages of coming sorrows. And when judgment does come, a remant is always saved. The nature of God is not judgment although He warns judgment is inevitable. He has a heart of mercy, grace and love. And in the end, it is man who suffers the consequences of his decisions and his actions. This is why He pleads with us today to choose life.
Re: The Case for the Global Flood
So was pre-flood mankind sort of a rough draft? Did God really require a rough draft? If he pleaded for people to choose life back then, then it must have fallen on deaf ears or he wasn't very clear in his pleas.Forum Monk wrote:My judgement of what is "right and fair" is not God's judgement of what is "right and fair". And God is not judged by me.
......It is only hypothetical so my opinion doesn't matter.
quote]
I'll grant you that you are in no way required to answer my question, but I was asking for *your* opinion which matters to me.
Forum Monk wrote:This is why He pleads with us today to choose life.
We are talking about drowning the entire world. Were there only SEVEN rightious people on the entire planet at the time? If so, then how can an omnipotent being allow that to happen? Free will can only account for so much. At some point the designer must be help responsible for *something*.