Was the West founded on Christian Values?

[Jonouchi Katsuya]

Treaty of Tripoly

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

Written by John Adams. Unanimously ratified.

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!" - John Adams

George Washington, the first president of the United States, never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. His wife and daughters were Christian.

Jefferson rejected the divinity of Christ and denied the orthodox Christian God.

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - Madison. In other words he did not want us to say it was a Christian nation or have religion in our government.


More I could say, but I am really busy.

[Grizz_1]

Your John Adams quote is bogus. That was supposed to be said in the "“Treaty of Tripoli” but it was NOT in the document, its just made up. That quote was supposed to be in article 11 of the treaty but there is no article 11. Read it for yourself.

George Washington, the first president of the United States, never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. His wife and daughters were Christian.

Why did George Washington decide to place his right hand on the Bible at his inauguration and every President of the U.S. has done so?

Every President has claimed to be a Christian, every one. Do you know what the first act of congress was? We have a newly established government...lots to do...lets go...what to do first? The first act of congress was to appoint a Chaplin. That's right a Chaplin (who was paid by the government) On April 27 1789 Congress passed a resolution in the Senate and 2 days later in the house, giving instructions with regard to the Inauguration of George Washington as the first President of the United States: "Resolved after the oath have been administered to the president, he, attended by the Vice President and the members of the Senate, and House of Representatives, proceed to St. Paul's church, to hear DIVINE service, to be preformed by the Chaplin of congress already appointed"

On Jan 1 1795 Washington gave his National Thanksgiving proclamation, in it he stated: "Our duty as a people, with devout reverence and affectionate gratitude, to acknowledge our many and great obligations to ALMIGHTY GOD, and implore Him to continue and confirm the blessings we experienced"

July 9, 1776 "The General hopes and trusts that every officer and man, will endeavor so to live, and act, as becomes a Christian Solider defending the dearest Rights and Liberties of his country" -George Washington

On Jan 1 1795 Washington gave his National Thanksgiving proclamation, in it he stated: "Our duty as a people, with devout reverence and affectionate gratitude, to acknowledge our many and great obligations to ALMIGHTY GOD, and implore Him to continue and confirm the blessings we experienced"

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!" - John Adams

How disingenuous, you might want to Quote the entire passage. That will debunk your assertion and make the context clear. I will for you, here is the complete quote in an April 19, 1817, letter to Thomas Jefferson:

"Twenty times in the course of my late reading have I been on the point of breaking out, 'This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion at all!!!' But in this exclamation I would have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean hell."

Certainly changes the meaning.

John Quincy Adams

Sixth President of the United States

"There are three points of doctrine the belief of which forms the foundation of all morality. The first is the existence of God; the second is the immortality of the human soul; and the third is a future state of rewards and punishments. Suppose it possible for a man to disbelieve either of these three articles of faith and that man will have no conscience, he will have no other law than that of the tiger or the shark. The laws of man may bind him in chains or may put him to death, but they never can make him wise, virtuous, or happy."

(Source: John Quincy Adams, Letters of John Quincy Adams to His Son on the Bible and Its Teachings (Auburn: James M. Alden, 1850), pp. 22-23.)

John Witherspoon
Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"I entreat you in the most earnest manner to believe in Jesus Christ, for there is no salvation in any other [Acts 4:12]. . . . f you are not reconciled to God through Jesus Christ, if you are not clothed with the spotless robe of His righteousness, you must forever perish."

John Witherspoon, The Works of John Witherspoon (Edinburgh: J. Ogle, 1815), Vol. V, pp. 276, 278, The Absolute Necessity of Salvation Through Christ, January 2, 1758.

Robert Treat Paine
Signer of the Declaration of Independence


"I desire to bless and praise the name of God most high for appointing me my birth in a land of Gospel Light where the glorious tidings of a Savior and of pardon and salvation through Him have been continually sounding in mine ears."

Robert Treat Paine, The Papers of Robert Treat Paine, Stephen Riley and Edward Hanson, editors (Boston: Massachusetts Historical Society, 1992), Vol. I, p. 48, March/April, 1749.

Jefferson rejected the divinity of Christ and denied the orthodox Christian God

Really?

Thomas Jefferson
3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

I'm not seeing the rejection of anything here.

So all of your quotes are either bogus or partial quotes to change the context. I'm not surprised.

[Jonouchi Katsuya]

Would you care to meet me halfway and at least agree that... they wanted everyone to have the freedom to practice how they wished and what they wished? That they were for a secular government because of the king they fled from?

[neo-x]

Would you care to meet me halfway and at least agree that... they wanted everyone to have the freedom to practice how they wished and what they wished? That they were for a secular government because of the king they fled from?

Whats the point katsuya, he just gave you straight answers with references as opposite to yours. You just speak what atheist websites tell you? And they wanted to have everyone believe what they will, which is a certain christian thing to do. Next time at least check your references before posting.

[B. W.]

Was the West founded on Christian Values? I am speaking only of American Ideal - not the entire West...

The answer was yes - these were men of the Enlightenment who investigated all forms of Governmental systems. And found that the Judaic /Christian philosophy was the best to model and new Governmental system after. Islam was Tyrannical as was King/Queen systems, Hinduism supported a caste system – tyranny again. These men wanted a Government that can avoid tyranny and used principles within the bible to frame one, like grace, liberty, etc… The three branches of Government was Trinitarian model of check and balances to protect the rights of the common citizen contained in the Bill of Rights... etc…

Below is a quote from a website – it has useful info

Judeo-Christian Roots of America's Founding Ideals and Documents

From this website refrence: http://www.nccs.net/newsletter/may03nl.html

Dear Friends,

Most states have now put in place a series of standards and performance objectives which students must attain in order to graduate from high school. As a member of Arizona's Standards Committee for Social Studies I was anxious to get some meaningful standards in place relating to an understanding of our roots. We were successful. Two of these requirements are that students must be able to identify fundamental principles in the Declaration of Independence and also be able to explain American moral and ethical ideals which have their antecedent in the Judeo-Christian tradition.

A number of teachers in my state have asked for resource material relating to these and other standards they are required to teach. In an attempt to respond to their request, the following is published as part of a more complete compilation called Sources. Sources also includes sample assessment questions for student study.

Listed below are a few principles or ideals to which the Founders adhered. Given immediately following each one are passages showing Judeo-Christian roots of that principle and then passages reflecting the use of the principle in America's founding documents. This list is by no means meant to be exhaustive, but only to exemplify the concept that America's Founding ideals have their roots in Judeo-Christian tradition. It should not be surprising that the Bible is quoted often as the source of the Founders' thinking for studies have shown the Bible is by far the most often quoted source in all of the publications and speeches of the founding era.

Principle: Reliance on the Providence of God

Judeo-Christian Roots

"For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee. O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires. And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones. And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children. In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee. Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake. Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD. (Isaiah 54:10 - 17)

American Founding Ideal:

"We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name, and by authority of the good people of these colonies, solemnly publish and declare that these United Colonies are, and of right ought to be, free and independent states; .. And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor." (Declaration of Independence. See also John Eidsmoe, Christianity and the Constitution, Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, MI, 1987, pp. 355-377)

Principle: Law of God forms basis of good human laws

Judeo-Christian Roots

"The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. (Psalms 19:7 -

American Founding Ideal:

"Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be." John Adams, February 22, 1756 (Federer, William J., America's God and Country Encyclopedia Of Quotations , FAME Publishing, Coppell, Texas, 1994, p.5)

"These laws laid down by God are the eternal immutable laws of good and evil .... This law of nature dictated by God himself, is of course superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all the globe, in all countries, and at all times: no human laws are of any validity if contrary to this...

"The doctrines thus delivered we call the revealed or divine law, and they are to be found only in the holy scriptures ... [and] are found upon comparison to be really part of the original law of nature. Upon these two foundations, the law of nature and the law of revelation, depend all human laws; that is to say, no human laws should be suffered to contradict these. William Blackstone (Federer, p.52)

Principle: Religion and Morality form basis of Liberty

Judeo-Christian Roots

"Proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof." (Leviticus 25:10)

"Ye have not hearkened unto me, in proclaiming liberty, every one to his brother, and every man to his neighbor: behold, I proclaim a liberty for you, saith the Lord." (Jeremiah 34:17)

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." (2 Chronicles 7:14)

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (John 8:32)

American Founding Ideal:

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams (Federer, p. 10)

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible" George Washington (Federer, p.660)

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports.... And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion ... Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail to the exclusion of religious principle." George Washington's Farewell Address

Principle: The Equality of Man

Judeo-Christian Roots

"Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him. Ye shall not respect [discriminate against] persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God's: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it." (Deuteronomy 1:16-17)

"Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect [discriminate against] the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbor." (Leviticus 19:15)

"God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34)

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28)

American Founding Ideal:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal." Declaration of Independence

"No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States" U.S. Constitution, Art. I, Sec. 9, Paragraph

Principle: God-Given Human Rights

Judeo-Christian Roots

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. (Genesis 1:27 - 28)

"Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. Thou shalt not covet.. (Exodus 20:13-17)

American Founding Ideal:

".that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." (Declaration of Independence)

Principle: Government authority by Consent of the Governed

Judeo-Christian Roots

"Judges and officers shalt thou make thee in all thy gates, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, throughout thy tribes: and they shall judge the people with just judgment." (Deuteronomy 16:18)

"Take you wise men, and understanding, and known among your tribes, and I will make them rulers over you.. So I took the chief of your tribes, wise men, and known, and made them heads over you, captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, and captains over fifties, and captains over tens, and officers among your tribes." (Deuteronomy 1:13 - 15)

American Founding Ideal:

".governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." (Declaration of Independence)

"The United States shall guarantee to every state in this Union a republican form of government" (U.S Constitution, Art. IV, Section 4)

Principle: Sanctity of Contract

Judeo-Christian Roots

"If a man vow a vow unto the Lord, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth." (Numbers 30:2)

American Founding Ideal:

"No state shall.pass any. law impairing the obligation of contracts." (U.S Constitution, Art. I, Section 10, Paragraph 1)

Principle: Two Witnesses

Judeo-Christian Roots

"At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death." (Deuteronomy 17:6)

American Founding Ideal:

"No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court." (U.S Constitution, Art. III, Section 3, Paragraph 1)

Principle: No Corruption of Blood

Judeo-Christian Roots

"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin." (Deut. 24: 6)

American Founding Ideal:

".but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted." (U.S Constitution, Art. III, Section 3, Paragraph 2)

Principle: Sabbath Day Excepted

Judeo-Christian Roots

"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work." (Exodus 20:8-10)

American Founding Ideal:

"If any bill shall not be returned by the President within ten days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the same shall be a law, in like manner as if he had signed it." (U.S Constitution, Art. I, Section 7, Paragraph 2)

Principle: Separation of Church and State

Judeo-Christian Roots

"Render therefore unto Cæsar the things which be Cæsar's, and unto God the things which be God's." (Luke 20:25)

American Founding Ideal:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. (First Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

Principle: Teaching the Law of Liberty to Next Generation

Judeo-Christian Roots

"And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. (Deuteronomy 6:7)

American Founding Ideal:

"Let [the Constitution] be taught in schools, in seminaries, and in colleges, let it be written in primers, in spelling books and in almanacs, let it be preached from the pulpit, proclaimed in legislative halls, and enforced in courts of justice. And, in short, let it become the political religion of the nation." (Abraham Lincoln, "The Perpetuation of Our Political Institutions", January 27, 1838)

From this sampling it can be readily seen that no nation has a closer parallel to the Judeo-Christian tradition than the United States of America.

Sincerely,



Earl Taylor, Jr.

[Grizz_1]

I'm sorry but there is no half way on the Christian Principles or the FACT that this Nation was founded By Christians, for Christians. Now that is not to say, and I agree with you on the FACT, that people are granted the absolute right to worship whatever they want in this country. And that Right was granted by the Christian founders based on the Christian principles they used to found the nation. But we were founded a Christian nation and there is no half way about it.

I will make my case firmer although I don't think I have too. Its for your benefit. Just a few of the many Court opinions in support of Christianity.

"The morality of the country is deeply ingrafted upon Christianity, and not upon the doctrines or worship of other religions. In people whose manners are refined, and whose morals have been elevated and inspired with a more enlarged benevolence, it is by means of the Christian religion." United States Supreme Court, 1811

"Why may not the Bible, and especially the New Testament be read and taught as a divine revelation in the school? Where can the purest principles of morality be learned so clearly or so perfectly as from the New Testament?" United States Supreme Court, 1844

"The morality of the country is deeply ingrafted upon Christianity, and not upon doctrines or worship of other religions." United States Supreme Court, 1892

"It yet remains a problem to be solved in human affairs whether any free government can be permanent where the public worship of God, and the support of religion, constitute no part of the policy or duty of the state in any assignable shape." Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story

"Whatever strikes at the root of Christianity tends manifestly to the
dissolution of civil government, because it tends to corrupt the morals of the people, and to destroy good order." Supreme Court of New York, 1811

"A malicious intention, to vilify the Christian religion and the scriptures, would prove a nursery of vice, a school of preparation to qualify young men for the gallows, and young women for the brothel, and there is not a skeptic of decent manners and good morals, who would not consider such a common nuisance and disgrace." Pennsylvania Supreme Court, 1824

"Christianity has reference to the principles of right and wrong; It is the foundation of those morals and manners upon which our society is formed; it is their basis. Remove this and they would fall. Morality has grown upon the basis of Christianity." Supreme Court of South Carolina, 1846

"What constitutes the standard of good morals? Is it not Christianity? There Certainly is none other. Say that cannot be appealed to, and what would be good morals? The day of moral virtue in which we live would, in an instant, if that standard were abolished, lapse into the dark and murky night of pagan immorality." Supreme Court of South Carolina, 1846

[RickD]

I'm sorry but there is no half way on the Christian Principles or the FACT that this Nation was founded By Christians, for Christians. Now that is not to say, and I agree with you on the FACT, that people are granted the absolute right to worship whatever they want in this country. And that Right was granted by the Christian founders based on the Christian principles they used to found the nation. But we were founded a Christian nation and there is no half way about it.

We discussed this topic ad nauseum a while back. Just because you post FACT in all caps doesn't make it a fact. You are partly correct that this nation was founded by Christians. Some were Christian, and some weren't. I also agree that the U.S. Founding was based on biblical principles. But, to say it was founded AS a Christian nation, is as wrong as you can get IMO. The founders left a "Christian" nation, with the Church of England, as its church. The ff wanted a pluralistic society where there is freedom of religion, not a state religion. There are many other Christians here that have the same opinion as I.

You certainly are entitled to have the opinion that you want, but it is an opinion that many others don't share, and many people more educated than me on this topic, disagree with you.

[Grizz_1]

The ff wanted a pluralistic society where there is freedom of religion, not a state religion

I believe I said that. There is and was much cultural diversity in our country. I also believe and the evidence bears it out that our country was founded as a Christian nation. Now what does that mean? I believe it to mean that the principles are Christian principles based on Biblical principles. What I believe, and I said, was that you are free to worship whatever you like. There is freedom of religion. But what I believe (and I'm sure its controversial) is that when the FF's referred to "Religion" they meant the Christian Religion. And did not want any denomination to hold any special place. They left a Nation that was indeed a "Christian Nation" but its was "The Church of England" (denomination) and if you did not conform you were persecuted in England. That is why they did not want any Christian denomination to hold a special place in this country. Thus the no state religion.

I did say

this Nation was founded By Christians, for Christians

and that might be taken as an exclusion of others. But that was not my meaning. Just simply that most (vast majority) of the FF's were Christian and most (vast majority) people here at that time were Christian. It only follows that the instituted government would be leaning, in its principles, toward the people that were living here at the time, Christians, and the FACTS bear that out. They did not found the country IMHO on who might be living here in the future but on who lived there at that time.

But, to say it was founded AS a Christian nation, is as wrong as you can get IMO

Now after reading what I believe a "Christian Nation" is, meaning not excluding any non Christians, but founded on the principals of Christianity do you still thing I'm

as wrong as you can get IMO

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. As I am entitled to disagree with it. I based my opinion on the evidence that I posted. Your opinion is based on? And how do you reconcile all the references to Christianity in the above posts of mine if in fact we were not founded as a Christian nation?

[RickD]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. As I am entitled to disagree with it. I based my opinion on the evidence that I posted. Your opinion is based on? And how do you reconcile all the references to Christianity in the above posts of mine if in fact we were not founded as a Christian nation?

I agree with pretty much all that you clarified, with the exception still of it being founded as a Christian nation. I guess maybe I'm quibbling over the definition of "Christian". I can't see how it can be both pluralistic, and Christian at the same time. Again, I agree that many of the founders were probably some form of Christian. I'm just not sure they fall into the narrow definition I have of Christian. I just believe there is a difference between a true born-again Christian, and someone who is nominally Christian.

As far as the quotes you posted, I've seen at least as many by founding fathers that were either nominally Christian, or just generically religious in nature. I'm not convinced that someone who claims to be Christian, while also belonging to the anti-Christian masons, is truly a spirit filled Christian.

[Grizz_1]

Ah i see. Ok I can agree with you. The definition of "Christian" can (But should not) be a bit sticky lol

I just believe there is a difference between a true born-again Christian, and someone who is nominally Christian.

I see your point and am in agreement with you. I suppose the Broad term Christian that I use for the FF's mean only that they held the main doctrines of Christianity and the world at large at the time would have deemed them "Christians".

Christian is an interesting word. I believe It has changed over time to mean different things to different people. But that's another discussion.

God Bless!

[jlay]

But we were founded a Christian nation and there is no half way about it.

Certainly not. Because there is no such thing, nor can there be.
I am a Christian. I will certainly agree that the USA was founded by men who were not only Christian, but would be considered Christian scholars by the standards of today. And, yes, I believe the USA is best suited for Christian people. But the USA is not a Christian nation. And I do not think people who make this claim have any idea what they are actually claiming when they say so.

These were Christian men in some respect. But they were also rebels who violated the very teachings of scripture. 1 Peter 2:13, Romans 13:1-2
How can one read those verses and even attempt to say that the US is a Christian nation, or founded as a Christian nation? What Christ founded was in his blood, and not in the blood of human warfare. And it has nothing to do with temporary governments of men. I have no doubt that the FFs were heavily influenced by their knowledge of the Bible. But they certainly ignored it and violated when they took up arms. What a noble cause. Taxation without representation. Now, there is a cross to die upon. Jesus said, rend to Caesar what is Caesers.

The USA is not a theocracy, and I am thankful that these rebels were wise in that they did not use any founding document to impose a Christian theocracy, because they knew it would have been corrupt. Our battle is not flesh and blood. Nor is it in constitutions and declarations. You will get no argument that Christian ethics influenced the West and the USA. But when someone says the USA was founded a Christian nation, they have stepped over a line and have confused the American dream for Christ crucified. The USA will fail. It will turn to dust. Christ will never.

There is NOTHING in the Constitution or DOI that says anything about a Christian nation, or a nation for Christians. NOTHING. Influence is just that, influence. No doubt our FFs were also influenced by the Thomas Paine, who was anit-religious, and many other political factors of the time, which had nothing to do with Christianity.

[Grizz_1]

Please read my interpretation on "Christian Nation".

I did say

this Nation was founded By Christians, for Christians

and that might be taken as an exclusion of others. But that was not my meaning. Just simply that most (vast majority) of the FF's were Christian and most (vast majority) people here at that time were Christian. It only follows that the instituted government would be leaning, in its principles, toward the people that were living here at the time, Christians, and the FACTS bear that out. They did not found the country IMHO on who might be living here in the future but on who lived there at that time.

Now were they by your definition Christian? I would not care to venture a guess. But I'm pretty sure that as far as a nation can be a Christian nation we were. Does it fit your interpretation? I guess not. Did the other nations of the world think us a Christian nation? I believe they did. And still do.

In a strict sense you are correct, there is no such thing and can not be. But that was not my intention, and I clarified that. As far a nation (founded on Christian principles) can be, we were. I did not mean that we are or were a Theocracy.

These were Christian men in some respect. But they were also rebels who violated the very teachings of scripture.

Don't we all? There are no perfect Christians. The one, and only one, was evacuated out of here some 2000 years ago. We try as best we can, as did the FF's.

[RickD]

Grizz, while I agree with this:

These were Christian men in some respect. But they were also rebels who violated the very teachings of scripture.


Don't we all? There are no perfect Christians. The one, and only one, was evacuated out of here some 2000 years ago. We try as best we can, as did the FF's.

They also condoned one of the most heinous institutions in the history of mankind. Chattel slavery. Those who condoned that, certainly left their "Christianity" open for questioning in my book.

I see your point and am in agreement with you. I suppose the Broad term Christian that I use for the FF's mean only that they held the main doctrines of Christianity and the world at large at the time would have deemed them "Christians".

We're not debating what the world at large calls Christians. We're debating what you are calling Christian, and the quotes YOU are using to back up your side of the issue.

There are many things that the "world at large" associates with Christianity, such as the crusades, for example. We, as true Christians know that the crusades were perpetrated by those using the name of Christ to do something that Christ never taught. The same could be said for "Christians" who supported chattel slavery.
I guess my point is that what the world calls "christian", isn't true Christianity.

[DannyM]

Here we go again. It's all about definition. Clearly America was founded by Christian men (the pathetically few exceptions not even worth wasting
breath on). America was founded on Christian principles. Anybody wishing to disassociate America from its Christian heritage ought to ask themselves where values, ideals and principles have their base? Where does the ideal of the equality of men have its base? What is the root of such morality? Did it evolve? Did we just adapt to it out of thin air? Did it float by and we just grabbed hold of it? Did some man just by happenstance think up morality?

You and I know that there is no objective standard of morality without God.

Forget about capitalism versus socialism. This is about Christian men, tired of tyranny, tired of injustice, seeking freedom, seeking new opportunity, seeking self determination…Seeking equal dignity and equality for themselves and the people they served.

What and Who is the guiding light behind all of this?

Forget about the red herrings of “theocracy,” of “freedom of religion,” as if the non-existence of the former and existence of the latter disprove a theoretical Christian nation. These are red herrings put out by those fighting against the argument.

Get your definitions straight and we might see some common agreement.

[Jonouchi Katsuya]

Would you care to meet me halfway and at least agree that... they wanted everyone to have the freedom to practice how they wished and what they wished? That they were for a secular government because of the king they fled from?

Whats the point katsuya, he just gave you straight answers with references as opposite to yours. You just speak what atheist websites tell you? And they wanted to have everyone believe what they will, which is a certain christian thing to do. Next time at least check your references before posting.

No I have studied. And no, I don't get it from just websites. I actually have a book of things that I have copied from library books.

I just don't feel it is worth fighting with someone who full heartedly believes something already so strongly. I don't want to fight. And I can tell it makes some people feel special to feel that this is a Christian nation. Just know that I disagree.