Was the West founded on Christian Values?

RickD · Post by **RickD** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:58 pm

Rick, if chattel slavery was being endorsed after the Declaration then I’ll take back everything I’ve bloody said. I’m aware that it still went on, but if it was being endorsed or had some blind eyes turned to it by those who had drawn up the Declaration then that’s a different matter.

Danny, the DOI was signed in 1777, I believe. The 13th amendment was adopted in 1865. You do the math.

Danny, something I encountered at work last year, led me to study slavery in the US. I used to believe that we were a Christian nation. Just like I believed in young earth creationism. Once I did my own research on both those topics, I came to different realizations. I was told by Christians that yec is the only biblical interpretation of creation. I was told by many Christians that we are a Christian nation.

It's amazing what I learned when I started searching for myself.

DannyM · Post by **DannyM** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:21 pm

RickD wrote:
Rick, if chattel slavery was being endorsed after the Declaration then I’ll take back everything I’ve bloody said. I’m aware that it still went on, but if it was being endorsed or had some blind eyes turned to it by those who had drawn up the Declaration then that’s a different matter.
Danny, the DOI was signed in 1777, I believe. The 13th amendment was adopted in 1865. You do the math.

Rick, what does this matter?

Danny, something I encountered at work last year, led me to study slavery in the US. I used to believe that we were a Christian nation. Just like I believed in young earth creationism. Once I did my own research on both those topics, I came to different realizations. I was told by Christians that yec is the only biblical interpretation of creation. I was told by many Christians that we are a Christian nation.

Hey, Rick, dispensing with YEC was probably a good thing, but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water

It's amazing what I learned when I started searching for myself.

I've been looking into the Declaration and Constitution myself for years now, looking at the organic documents, and never come across evidence that chattel slavery was permitted by the very men who drew up the Declaration. Maybe I wasn't looking hard enough. We'll see.

Canuckster1127 · Post by **Canuckster1127** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:37 pm

The DOI makes overt references to God or a creator. The Constitution makes none.

Slavery was an issue from the very founding of the nation and there are countless ways in which the ideals expressed in founding documents were contrary to actual practice. Southern colonies argued against stronger language and further over time, Supreme Court decisions provided rationalization that at times was just ridiculous. The Dred Scott case just before the civil war where blacks were counted as 3/5 of a human being so that they could be credited to the census counts and representation in the democratic representation process was just an amazing (in retrospect) exercise in abject hypocrisy. Even Lincoln's strong actions were in the end last resorts and he was fully willing to keep slavery in effect if doing do would preserve the union.

The US is a democratic Republic and it has a great deal of ideals in place that find their roots in popular philosophy of the day which included Christian Social Values as well as the diestic philosophies of John Locke and other philosophers of Europe. The US benefitted from their isolation from the more radical forms that arose in Europe and there was indeed a great more Christian Influnce in America in the early 19th century (which became the view through which a lot of early colonial history was first written.)

DannyM · Post by **DannyM** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:49 pm

Canuckster1127 wrote:The DOI makes overt references to God or a creator. The Constitution makes none.

Slavery was an issue from the very founding of the nation and there are countless ways in which the ideals expressed in founding documents were contrary to actual practice. Southern colonies argued against stronger language and further over time, Supreme Court decisions provided rationalization that at times was just ridiculous. The Dred Scott case just before the civil war where blacks were counted as 3/5 of a human being so that they could be credited to the census counts and representation in the democratic representation process was just an amazing (in retrospect) exercise in abject hypocrisy. Even Lincoln's strong actions were in the end last resorts and he was fully willing to keep slavery in effect if doing do would preserve the union.

The US is a democratic Republic and it has a great deal of ideals in place that find their roots in popular philosophy of the day which included Christian Social Values as well as the diestic philosophies of John Locke and other philosophers of Europe. The US benefitted from their isolation from the more radical forms that arose in Europe and there was indeed a great more Christian Influnce in America in the early 19th century (which became the view through which a lot of early colonial history was first written.)

'Chattel' slavery, Bart. Any overt references to this being endorsed by the authors of the Declaration? I'm in LONANG at the moment, going through many documents that talk about slavery. Been there, done that. This isn't my problem. I'm looking for authors of the Declaration personally implicated for their endorsement of chattel slavery...

RickD · Post by **RickD** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:32 pm

'Chattel' slavery, Bart. Any overt references to this being endorsed by the authors of the Declaration? I'm in LONANG at the moment, going through many documents that talk about slavery. Been there, done that. This isn't my problem. I'm looking for authors of the Declaration personally implicated for their endorsement of chattel slavery...

Danny, start with a list of founding fathers, then see who owned slaves.

Re: Was the West founded on Christian Values?
by DannyM » Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:21 pm
RickD wrote:
Rick, if chattel slavery was being endorsed after the Declaration then I’ll take back everything I’ve bloody said. I’m aware that it still went on, but if it was being endorsed or had some blind eyes turned to it by those who had drawn up the Declaration then that’s a different matter.

Danny, the DOI was signed in 1777, I believe. The 13th amendment was adopted in 1865. You do the math.

Rick, what does this matter?

Danny, you said if chattel slavery was being endorsed after the declaration of ind., then you'd take back everything you said. For 88 years after the DOI was finished and signed, chattel slavery was still here.

DannyM · Post by **DannyM** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:01 pm

RickD wrote:Danny, start with a list of founding fathers, then see who owned slaves.

Having slaves is not the issue. Slaves can still have equal rights.

Danny, you said if chattel slavery was being endorsed after the declaration of ind., then you'd take back everything you said. For 88 years after the DOI was finished and signed, chattel slavery was still here.

Rick, you mentioned the 13th amendment.

ARTICLE XIII

Sect. 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Sect. 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

http://www.lonang.com/exlibris/organic/1787-usc.htm

I don’t see slaves as commodities. There were slaves in the Bible, and they were not commodities.

Anyway, I’m rifling through some documents on slavery as property, most notably in Virginia, and I’ll comment on them tomorrow, since I’m supposed to be up at 6 and I’m still sitting here talking to you

RickD · Post by **RickD** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:12 pm

Having slaves is not the issue. Slaves can still have equal rights.

Danny, chattel slaves were subhuman. They didn't have rights like their owners. Kinda sounds like fetuses. Subhuman, and no rights.

Rick, you mentioned the 13th amendment.

the 13th amendment didn't free slaves until the 1860's. Well after the ff were dead and buried.

RickD · Post by **RickD** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:19 pm

Just one example of slaves as property:
http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html

There are others from other confederate states. Just google "declaration of causes of secession".
That shows in the states own words, why they wanted to secede from the union. Slavery was the a#1 reason.
Slave owners claim they had a right to their property(slaves). Slaves rights to freedom were ignored in favor of slaveowners right to property.
Similarly,a fetus' right to life is ignored in favor of a persons right to "choose".

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

DannyM · Post by **DannyM** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:51 am

Thanks for the link, Rick.

RickD wrote:Just one example of slaves as property:
http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html
There are others from other confederate states. Just google "declaration of causes of secession".
That shows in the states own words, why they wanted to secede from the union. Slavery was the a#1 reason.
Slave owners claim they had a right to their property(slaves). Slaves rights to freedom were ignored in favor of slaveowners right to property.
Similarly,a fetus' right to life is ignored in favor of a persons right to "choose".
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

I’m going to do a lot of extra reading over the next days. Maybe I’m romanticising about America, but I don’t see how any of this interferes with the ideals expressed in the Declaration. I don’t think there can be any doubt that the Declaration was the catalyst for abolition. It did not come immediately, and if chattel slavery was still being practiced by FFs then this is an anomaly that sticks in the gut. But it doesn’t alter the ideals. Anyway(s)…

I’m going to look a lot deeper into the personal activities of some and I may change my opinion of some individuals…but I doubt very much that I’ll change my opinion about the Declaration itself and from why it came to be and to where it went. Even if there is a stinking hypocrisy at the heart of some individuals, it doesn’t negate the merits of the ideals put forward. Was it a failure because it did not outlaw chattel slavery immediately? Policy, unfortunately, does not work like that. Men were stuck in their ways; I mean just look at the link you gave - these men thought they were being perfectly reasonable and felt affronted. Sometimes some men have to be dragged kicking and screaming.

RickD · Post by **RickD** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:54 am

I’m going to do a lot of extra reading over the next days. Maybe I’m romanticising about America, but I don’t see how any of this interferes with the ideals expressed in the Declaration.

Danny, you have to realize that when the declaration of independence is referring to men, that doesn't include black African men. They were considered less than men. So, I'm saying they justified slavery because black African slaves were less than human. Just like people justify abortion because unborn babies are less than human.

jlay · Post by **jlay** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:45 pm

Rick found an article from my alma mater. Go Big Orange!!

RickD · Post by **RickD** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:02 pm

jlay wrote:Rick found an article from my alma mater. Go Big Orange!!

Do you mean Tennessee?

I have a great respect for the real tennessee volunteers, after reading about The Fort Pillow massacre.

jlay · Post by **jlay** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:39 pm

That's right. Tennessee.

Having slaves is not the issue. Slaves can still have equal rights.

I think that is a bit self-defeating. If slaves had equal rights, they wouldn't be slaves. Chattell slavery was a violation of human rights as laid out in the DOI. "That all men are created equal and endowed by their creator ......life, liberty, pursuit of happiness."

RickD · Post by **RickD** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:51 pm

That's right. Tennessee.

U. Of Florida > U. Tennessee

DannyM · Post by **DannyM** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:33 pm

jlay wrote:If slaves had equal rights, they wouldn't be slaves. Chattell slavery was a violation of human rights as laid out in the DOI. "That all men are created equal and endowed by their creator ......life, liberty, pursuit of happiness."

Chattel slavery is indeed a violation of the DOI. Having servants and helpers doesn't violate equal rights at all. That's what I'm driving at.

RickD wrote:you have to realize that when the declaration of independence is referring to men, that doesn't include black African men. They were considered less than men. So, I'm saying they justified slavery because black African slaves were less than human. Just like people justify abortion because unborn babies are less than human.

So black African men were deliberately excluded from the terms "Mankind" and "all Men" in the eyes of "their Creator" ?

When in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation.

We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.