Byblos wrote: Read this. Especially the posts about the 2 covenants (or 1 covenant, 2 gospels rather).
But if you’re saying that repentance is a necessary antecedent to belief and thus to salvation, and quoting Scripture in order to back this up, then aren’t you saying that repentance contributes to salvation?jlay wrote:I would never say repenting 'contributes'.I’m certain that my repenting cannot contribute one jot to my salvation.
I surely do.I know you say you believe that repentance is 'a change of mind,'
Okay I’ll try. Salvation led me to change my mind about my sin. It was not okay to sin anymore. So I repented of my sins. I didn’t “turn away from” my sin. But I did not think it was okay to sin anymore. Repentance is not me turning away from. That’s more of a sanctification, and sanctification is a process that will continue until our bodies are redeemed.So give me a concrete example of how you are using repentance as it relates to when you say, "But my salvation sure contributes to my repentance."
jlay wrote: Danny, all scripture is useful. It is an important distinction, and I'm sorry if this has muddied the water. The Gentile gospel is no respecter of persons. Jew and gentile are no different. One's individual, personal salvation.
There is a salvation for Israel, the Nation. The Messiah is to restore the Kingdom of God on Earth. Israel is God's chosen people to do this. So, when JTB preached to Israel, 'repent....' it did have a specific context. And perhaps I was hasty in using it as an example of repentance preceding a gentiles conversion.
Do they? How do they get to that belief?The RCC thinks they are the Kingdom of God, and thus makes no distinction regarding these uses.
I linked this before.DannyM wrote:Do they? How do they get to that belief?The RCC thinks they are the Kingdom of God, and thus makes no distinction regarding these uses.
Paul said that he received his gospel not from men, but from direct revelation. He also said that it was a mystery not revealed to the prophets before. Well the expectation of a Messiah for Israel was certainly no secret. Jesus demonstrated this when He opened the scriptures to the disciples. It isn't that salvation is not a central tenet to both. It has to do with God's plans for Israel, His chosen people, whom He will not abandon. The two are not at war. They are God's sovereign plans being fulfilled.I don’t know about “2 gospels”. What about the gospel of the Kingdom?
We shouldn't avoid these terms when they are right and used in the scriptures themselves. We need to elevate our understanding, not dumb it down. (I know you're not advocating this. I'm just making a broad statement.) The bible refers to salvation in different context, some of which are personal salvation to eternal life, some which have a different application. Just as the each time the word 'baptism' is used doesn't mean water is involved.Calling it a “salvation” might confuse some, though.
I was hasty in that, because what I was driving at was that the RCC doesn't make the distinction in the pre-cross gospel that was preached by JTB and Jesus, and the gospel that Paul was given to preach to the gentiles. Not to take a pot shot at the RCC.Do they? How do they get to that belief?
It's all in the semantics. The words contribute and necessary are not interchangeable in this way. Nor do I think the way you are using contribute is reflective of what is taking plce. We already know that Christ is drawing all men to Himself. No one can be saved apart from the grace that God has already worked.But if you’re saying that repentance is a necessary antecedent to belief and thus to salvation, and quoting Scripture in order to back this up, then aren’t you saying that repentance contributes to salvation?
OK, lets break it down. You are saying that your salvation led you to change your mind. I have no question that as believers that we are constantly led by the Holy Spirit to renew our minds. So, we are totally on the same page regarding sanctification. I don't see how your example contradicts what I am speaking about. So let's go back to your salvation. What were you trusting Christ to save you from when you were saved? What was your 'salvation' from?Salvation led me to change my mind about my sin. It was not okay to sin anymore. So I repented of my sins. I didn’t “turn away from” my sin. But I did not think it was okay to sin anymore.
Of course. Gal 3:28 Romans 10:10-13my point is to recognise Paul was among Jews and Greeks.
The agnostic is a non-believer and doesn’t know anything. I think this is where we are locked, J. I don’t think that non-belief is a state of mind. The mind is not at a ‘state’ when we talk of a non-belief. You can say “my mind is passive on the subject” and call that aLet's say that you meet an agnostic. You start a dialogue and over time your conversations direct this person to change their mind about the existence of God and eventually to trust Christ. Did you 'contribute?' In a way. Did you add anything to the work of Christ? No.
OK, lets break it down. You are saying that your salvation led you to change your mind.
I trust Christ to save me from hell and give me life. To save me from myself.I have no question that as believers that we are constantly led by the Holy Spirit to renew our minds. So, we are totally on the same page regarding sanctification. I don't see how your example contradicts what I am speaking about. So let's go back to your salvation. What were you trusting Christ to save you from when you were saved? What was your 'salvation' from?
Sounds odd. But knowing Christ was what helped me understand the necessity to repent of my sins. But whether repentance occurs before, after or during one’s salvation, the verdict appears to be that repentance isn’t a necessary antecedent to salvation in Christ.It sounds to me as if you are saying that you didn't see the need of forgiveness and redemption until afterwards. It seems perplexing that someone would call on Christ as savior and yet be unaware that sin is what they are being saved from. Can you elaborate.
Thanks, Byblos.Byblos wrote:I linked this before.DannyM wrote:Do they? How do they get to that belief?The RCC thinks they are the Kingdom of God, and thus makes no distinction regarding these uses.
Danny, I promise if you approach this without trying to win the argument, you will see what I'm saying.I trust Christ to save me from hell and give me life. To save me from myself.
That's because you are using an extremely narrow definition that supports your conclusions. An agnostic is not an ignoramus per se. They certainly can be.The agnostic is a non-believer and doesn’t know anything. I think this is where we are locked, J.
jlay wrote: Danny, I promise if you approach this without trying to win the argument, you will see what I'm saying.
I came to know by believing in Christ. I’m open to probing the subconscious because I distinctly recall the wonder I felt, that Christ had suffered horrendously so that I might have life. I can understand some subconscious repentance from a nihilism, perhaps.How did you come to know your were in need of saving. Why were you going to Hell? How did you come to see 'yourself' as the problem?
At what point? Do you remember the point when you realised there was a hell? I don’t. I don’t remember these conscious thoughts prior to my belief. I don’t remember going,You obviously at some point became persuaded that Hell was real, that you were going there, and were in need of saving. Why were you going to Hell?
That's because you are using an extremely narrow definition that supports your conclusions. An agnostic is not an ignoramus per se. They certainly can be.
Agnosticism is the view that the truth value of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—is unknown or unknowable.
Agnosticism can be defined in various ways, and is sometimes used to indicate doubt or a skeptical approach to questions.
Under this common definition the agnostic isn't saying they don't know the claims of the Bible, etc., but claim that discovering religious truth is unknowable.
You’re right. I repent. I have been too hard on agnosticism.Guess what they have to repent of? This position. If they do not, how do you propose they could be saved?
This example is not universal but specific. But I could give you hundreds of other scenarios. You could substitute agnostic, for atheist, Buddhist, Mormon, or any worldview for that matter.
You’re missing the point. It is obviously a necessity. But this is not adding a stipulation since it is not biblical. Likewise repentance does not appear to be a biblical stipulation to salvation in Christ. If it’s not stated biblically, then it cannot be a stipulation. So you can say to any person anything you like in order for them to be saved. I’d say to the person to see what Scripture says about salvation.If I say a person must exist to be saved, am I adding a stipulation to salvation? Yes, in a sense. Let's not be so dogmatic that we redefine what faith alone salvation really means at the core.
Not taking cheap shots Danny. Jesus certainly didn't die to save us from annihilation. I get the impression that you are determined to refuse to acknowledge some things because of how it would support my position. That's fine. I admit I could be wrong. But statements like the above just don't seem logically consistent too me. I obviously can't argue with your experience. You were obviously aware that Christ suffered, but at the same time seem to state that there was no reality as to what He suffered for. Many people suffered terrible deaths on a cross. Why would Jesus' save you from anything? You obviously turned (mentally) to Christ in faith. Yet somehow you didn't turn from anything.I came to know by believing in Christ. I’m open to probing the subconscious because I distinctly recall the wonder I felt, that Christ had suffered horrendously so that I might have life. I can understand some subconscious repentance from a nihilism, perhaps.
I didn't ask you exact time? Only said, 'at some point. I asked why? So, it would seem to say, that you were going to Hell but didn't know why? That Jesus died, but you didn't know what for. I talked to a 5 year old yesterday, who was able to tell me why there was a Hell, and why someone would go there. And what/who Jesus died for? He placed his trust in Christ to be his savior.At what point? Do you remember the point when you realised there was a hell? I don’t.
I never said He did. I said I certainly changed my mind from a nihilistic viewpoint.jlay wrote:
Not taking cheap shots Danny. Jesus certainly didn't die to save us from annihilation.
I get the impression that you are determined to refuse to acknowledge some things because of how it would support my position.
Tell you what, for argument sake, let’s just agree that a repentance precedes every believers belief. Let me grant that here. The more we talk and the more I think about it I am actually leaning more towards you on this. My original argument is that it is not a biblical requirement stipulated for our salvation. I’m afraid that since you haven’t shown otherwise then I’ll have to stand firm on that. But as I say, the more I think about this the more I think you might be right that, whatever the biblical case, it does seem difficult to imagine some sort of repentance not occurring prior to one’s salvation. I’ll think more privately about it to confirm with myself. And I’ll pray that, if I’m wrong, God will forgive me for causing any offence to or for any undermining of Christ’s work on the cross.That's fine. I admit I could be wrong. But statements like the above just don't seem logically consistent too me. I obviously can't argue with your experience. You were obviously aware that Christ suffered, but at the same time seem to state that there was no reality as to what He suffered for. Many people suffered terrible deaths on a cross. Why would Jesus' save you from anything? You obviously turned (mentally) to Christ in faith. Yet somehow you didn't turn from anything.
At what point? Do you remember the point when you realised there was a hell? I don’t.
Yeah, I still see the subconscious and conscious intertwined somewhat here.I didn't ask you exact time? Only said, 'at some point. I asked why? So, it would seem to say, that you were going to Hell but didn't know why? That Jesus died, but you didn't know what for. I talked to a 5 year old yesterday, who was able to tell me why there was a Hell, and why someone would go there. And what/who Jesus died for? He placed his trust in Christ to be his savior.
And thank the Lord for that. I always expect candidness from you, J, you’d be missing something without it.Anyway, although it's been frustrating, it's been fun. Again, no cheap shots. Just my honest, candid opinion.
LOl, I wish you could meet this 5 year old. I assure you, this kid is just a blessing. From the mouths of babes as they say. What it teaches me is that they gospel is simple enough for a child to grasp. I have older kids I work with, who have no conceptualization, when it comes to these matters. Even teens and adults. We just can't manipulate God's timing.Nice to be compared to a 5 year old, J. Looks like I didn’t come out well…
jlay wrote:LOl, I wish you could meet this 5 year old. I assure you, this kid is just a blessing. From the mouths of babes as they say. What it teaches me is that they gospel is simple enough for a child to grasp. I have older kids I work with, who have no conceptualization, when it comes to these matters. Even teens and adults. We just can't manipulate God's timing.Nice to be compared to a 5 year old, J. Looks like I didn’t come out well…
Absolutely, and I'm trying in vain to separate or connect the two...either way...but it can 'do' one's brain in...Regarding the subconscious. Good point, as a lot of things we "believe" in may not be decided consciously, or in our inner-monologue.
God is omiscient isn't He? God doesn't "need" to see anything from us to demonstrate our choice. Perhaps it's something "we need."kmr wrote:Hey, just a quick glance at some subjects, and I just want to note something. Repentance does not contribute to salvation at all, but by repenting you are telling God that you would accept his gift of grace. It is God that is doing the work of saving you (made possible by the cross), but repenting and turning to him is the step that you need to take to show him your choice.
