Secured Salvation

[DannyM]

Secured Salvation says that once a Christian is saved, he is *forever* saved. This does not include apostates and counterfeit believers. It is important that I stress this in anticipation of the standard scriptures which will come my way. Apostates and counterfeits were never really part of the faith 1 John 2:19 Hebrews 6:8,9 Jude 1:19,20

To begin, no-one is righteous. We are in need of God’s grace to save us from this body of sin. Everything not of faith is sin. Paul is explicit here.

The body continues in sin Romans 7:14,15,16

It is no longer ‘us’ doing the sinning Romans 7:17,18,19,20,21,22,23

How can we as believers sin our way out of our salvation if it is not ‘us’ doing the sinning?

Who will deliver us from this body of death? Romans 7: 24,25

Christ came to cover all sins. Not just petty thievery, not only the sins that we as humans can so generously find it in our hearts to forgive, but ALL sin. I take this to mean past, present and future. It is done.

And Paul confirms it Romans 7:24,25

Sin is apart from faith Romans 14:23

Whoever believes on Him shall not be ashamed Romans 10:11

All who believe in the Son *have* eternal life, will never be lost and shall be raised on the last day John 6:39,40

We are justified by the faith of Christ Galatians 2:16 Ephesians 2:8

We are not justified *by* us, or *by* our belief. Nothing we do can save us. So then, if nothing we do can save us, how do we imagine there might be something we can do which will ‘keep’ us in salvation?

We are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise Ephesians 1:12,13,14

We are sealed at salvation Ephesians 4:30

God keeps His commitment to us and He keeps *our* commitment to Him 2 Timothy 1:12

We have eternal security. A believer can not lose his salvation. His commitment counted as righteousness, he is kept and sealed until the day of his redemption. Nobody knows the depth of God’s Love and grace; one can only imagine. As a believer, if I continue to sin, whether my sin to not sin ratio be 60/40, 70/30 or 90/10, I can not nullify God’s promise, and I can not break God’s seal.

We are called to good works, to be holy 1 Peter 1:13,14,15

But we have an inheritance. Our inheritance being kept for us, nothing can spoil it 1 Peter 1:4

We are shielded by God until the day 1 Peter 1:5

We are born again of an imperishable seed, and the word of God stands 1 Peter 1:23,24,25

‘Perseverance’ is grounded in the believer’s union with Christ Colossians 3:1,2,3,4

Christ keeps us strong 1 Corinthians 1:8

Despite our continued sinful state we are given life, “hidden” in Christ Colossians 3:3

And we are no longer slaves to sin, but heirs to Heaven Galatians 4:6,7

Counterfeit believers are those who were never really of the fold 1 John 2:19

Apostates were never true believers Hebrews 6:8,9 Jude 1:19,20

The implication here is there are genuine and counterfeit believers. Hebrews Ch. 6 actually suggests it is possible for people to be enlightened and yet not be in receipt of salvation Hebrews 6:9

The doctrine of secured salvation holds that it is not our ability to be faithful which is the guarantor of salvation, but the eternal faithfulness of Christ 1 Corinthians 1:8,9

God bless

[neo-x]

Brother Danny, I agree with you all the way. But when we build the case on the following assumption as in apostates and counterfeit believers are not Christians to begin with, never were, never would have been-

"Secured Salvation says that once a Christian is saved, he is *forever* saved. This does not include apostates and counterfeit believers. It is important that I stress this in anticipation of the standard scriptures which will come my way. Apostates and counterfeits were never really part of the faith 1 John 2:19 Hebrews 6:8,9 Jude 1:19,20"

-Then we are a forming a "no true Scotsman" argument. I think there can be a fair amount of criticism on this logical position. Most would consider it a logical fallacy but I would be interested to discuss this though, as I understand your intentions.

[DannyM]

Brother Danny, I agree with you all the way. But when we build the case on the following assumption as in apostates and counterfeit believers are not Christians to begin with, never were, never would have been-

"Secured Salvation says that once a Christian is saved, he is *forever* saved. This does not include apostates and counterfeit believers. It is important that I stress this in anticipation of the standard scriptures which will come my way. Apostates and counterfeits were never really part of the faith 1 John 2:19 Hebrews 6:8,9 Jude 1:19,20"

-Then we are a forming a "no true Scotsman" argument. I think there can be a fair amount of criticism on this logical position. Most would consider it a logical fallacy but I would be interested to discuss this though, as I understand your intentions.

Neo, if my argument is correct, there is no fallacy. You would need to show me I am incorrect. The terms 'promise' and 'inheritance' are used to emphasise the guarantee of the believer's salvation. All who believe will be raised on the last day. Counterfeit believers, by definition, can not have been saved.

[neo-x]

Neo, if my argument is correct, there is no fallacy. You would need to show me I am incorrect. The terms 'promise' and 'inheritance' are used to emphasise the guarantee of the believer's salvation. All who believe will be raised on the last day. Counterfeit believers, by definition, can not have been saved.

Danny, the problem is, there is no way to ascertain 100% what you are implying is true. I do not have to show you incorrect if the premise itself stands in question, the logical fallacy exists not on your content but the way you are executing it. We can move forward only once we are past these issues. I am not against the idea of the believers salvation secured, nor am I saying the problem lies there. The problem lies in the premise on which the case is being built upon that such people (apostates and non-believers) do not count. This poses a lot of problem. I am not trying to say that you are incorrect. Anybody can be incorrect, that is the easy part to debate. Please elaborate

Why such people do not count, where does the scriptures back this up?
How can we be sure or in any way ascertain if the person we are talking about was never a christian to begin with?

Let me illustrate to you, my family converted from Muslim syeds almost 125 years ago, but I am biologically, a great great....... great descendant of Muhammad. Now the Muslim claim and believe that such a conversion from the line of Muhammad is impossible. They say it can not happen. And that if it did happen, I (my family) was never true Muslim to begin with back till the point where our lines meet with Muhammad, which I seriously doubt. Now I hope you can see my point. What they believe does not count cuz they do not know what they are saying is true one hundred percent. They are making a supposition, and if everyone agrees then it becomes official. Please note my points are not on your point that we have eternal promise of salvation, that we have - which is true. But what I am saying is that the second part of your claim is not clear enough, what happens to such people and how they fit in the explanation is not yet complete, at least all I see right now is that they are just shifted out of the equation based on one supposition. That they do not count to begin with. It eliminates a lot of question, but raises others too. I do not believe this is a fair stance. When they believed they were "promised" that same salvation. If I become an apostate right at this very moment, does all the things that I have experienced of the holy spirit, would automatically become null? If that is so then was God and myself, playing a game. I was about to leave faith, and God being omnipotent and all knowing - played along, he never meant what I felt or read, in that case what I believed at that time was false to begin with since for me individually those promises were never there to begin with.

I do not see how you can form a case without addressing this issue. 2 peter 2:20-21

"20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them."

This means that they knew what they were in, what they signed up for. What happened to their "secure salavtion".

God bless.

[DannyM]

Danny, the problem is, there is no way to ascertain 100% what you are implying is true. I do not have to show you incorrect if the premise itself stands in question, the logical fallacy exists not on your content but the way you are executing it.

No fallacies here. Scripture is the final authority and you do have to show me incorrect in light off John 6:39, 40, 1 Peter 1:4 and so on.

The problem lies in the premise on which the case is being built upon that such people (apostates and non-believers) do not count. This poses a lot of problem. I am not trying to say that you are incorrect. Anybody can be incorrect, that is the easy part to debate. Please elaborate.

I gave scripture. How can apostates and counterfeits lose a salvation they never had? Hebrews 6:9, 1 John 2:19

Why such people do not count, where does the scriptures back this up?
How can we be sure or in any way ascertain if the person we are talking about was never a christian to begin with?

Neo, I’m giving you scripture here. Have you read the first post, Brother?

I do not see how you can form a case without addressing this issue. 2 peter 2:20-21

"20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them."

This means that they knew what they were in, what they signed up for. What happened to their "secure salavtion"

Where does it say they were saved and lost their salvation?

[PaulSacramento]

Christ said that only those that blasphemy the HS will be destroyed ( words to that effect) and to fear that which can kill the soul.
To Blasphemy the HS is to deny Christ and deny God and Deny the HS and for that to happen one must KNOW them.
You can't deny or reject that which you don't know, not really.
It can be argued that anyone that was a christian and then rejects Christ was not really a "true" christian, at least not a christian at heart but merely of "words".
I think there are many that SAY they Have Christ, but certainly their words and actions belay that, but that is NOT for US to decide, that is for Christ for only He and God can judge since only they know "the hearts of men".
I think that when a person truly and openly and out of love, gives themselves to Christ then they are assured Salvation as per Christ gift of Grace to Us.
Does that mean that they can do whatever they want?
Of course not but Gods gift of Grace through Christ is given freely to all those that choose to receive it and to keep it.
Free will means that we can, at any point, reject Christ and God but if we reject them, have we ever really had them?

[Byblos]

Danny, the problem is, there is no way to ascertain 100% what you are implying is true. I do not have to show you incorrect if the premise itself stands in question, the logical fallacy exists not on your content but the way you are executing it.

No fallacies here. Scripture is the final authority and you do have to show me incorrect in light off John 6:39, 40, 1 Peter 1:4 and so on.

The problem lies in the premise on which the case is being built upon that such people (apostates and non-believers) do not count. This poses a lot of problem. I am not trying to say that you are incorrect. Anybody can be incorrect, that is the easy part to debate. Please elaborate.

I gave scripture. How can apostates and counterfeits lose a salvation they never had? Hebrews 6:9, 1 John 2:19

Why such people do not count, where does the scriptures back this up?
How can we be sure or in any way ascertain if the person we are talking about was never a christian to begin with?

Neo, I’m giving you scripture here. Have you read the first post, Brother?

I do not see how you can form a case without addressing this issue. 2 peter 2:20-21

"20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them."

This means that they knew what they were in, what they signed up for. What happened to their "secure salavtion"

Where does it say they were saved and lost their salvation?

Neo picked up on exactly the point I wanted to address first so that there are no ambiguities as we go with this thread ('cause I have a felling it's gonna be a long one).

Neo is NOT saying they lost their salvation. What I think he's saying is that there is no way to distinguish between a saved person who acts like an apostate and a true apostate that was never saved. You see at the heart of secured salvation is 100% absolute, unconditional assurance. But an apostate who never really was saved who actually truly believed he was, at the time he THOUGHT he was saved. He also thought he had 100% absolute, unconditional assurance. But it turned out this absolute assurance is no assurance at all since he really is an apostate.

The bottom line is, how do we distinguish between a true believer who is saved and an apostate who was never saved but believed at some point that he was. There simply isn't any way, not by works, not by deeds, not by belief or faith because they can all turn out to be false indicators.

In other words what it boils down to is this, either you believe in 100% absolute, unconditional assurance where there is no room even for apostates to prove they were never saved, or you simply do not believe in secured assurance.

I think we need to nail this down before going any further.

[DannyM]

John,

Good idea.

1. First, I’m not sure it is in all cases possible for us to distinguish between a saved person and an apostate.

2. This doesn’t negate the fact of the saved man’s salvation and the apostate's damnation.

3. An apostate knows he is not saved. I don’t see how an apostate can think he is saved? Take Hebrews Ch. 6. It is talking about the rejection of the Holy Spirit. Salvation is rejected. Salvation is not received then rejected; it is just rejected. Salvation is perhaps tasted, but it is never received.

Hebrews 6:9
Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case— things that accompany salvation.

Those spoken of in verses 4-8 did not have salvation.

2 Peter Ch. 2, which Neo brought up, is talking about false teachers, revelling in their sins. These are not saved men.

4. To distinguish between true believers, we can pray for discernment.

1 John 2: 1-6
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defence— Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.

4 The man who says, I know him, but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:

6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

[Echoside]

Brother Danny, I agree with you all the way. But when we build the case on the following assumption as in apostates and counterfeit believers are not Christians to begin with, never were, never would have been-

"Secured Salvation says that once a Christian is saved, he is *forever* saved. This does not include apostates and counterfeit believers. It is important that I stress this in anticipation of the standard scriptures which will come my way. Apostates and counterfeits were never really part of the faith 1 John 2:19 Hebrews 6:8,9 Jude 1:19,20"

-Then we are a forming a "no true Scotsman" argument. I think there can be a fair amount of criticism on this logical position. Most would consider it a logical fallacy but I would be interested to discuss this though, as I understand your intentions.

I don't agree that a no true scotsman fallacy really applies here.

Take Matthew 7:15 for example, the bible never makes the claim that all people who outwardly support God have received salvation, here it applies the opposite. It also makes it clear that God is the final judge, not man. Our inability to discern who has received salvation and who has not isn't an issue. Unless you've made the claim that you can know when someone is saved then modified it to say someone really wasn't, then I don't see the fallacy.

[Byblos]

John,

Good idea.

1. First, I’m not sure it is in all cases possible for us to distinguish between a saved person and an apostate.

I think you misunderstand me. I'm not saying it is for US to distinguish between a saved person and an apostate, that's only for God to decide. I'm saying the person HIMSELF is not able to tell. There have been plenty of people who really truly thought they were believers to then become militant atheists. At the time they were believers they thought they had absolute assurance but now lead an apostate's life. This can happen to anyone Danny, including you and me. Unless you have a crystal ball that looks ahead to the day we die, you don't know weather or not either of us will become apostates (or more to the point, believe that we became apostates). The point of all of this is to say that those who believe one can prove they were never saved to begin with don't actually believe in secured salvation because proving one was never saved is tantamount to destroying assurance. And without assurance there can be no secured salvation.

So the logical conclusion of secured salvation is true OSAS no matter what. There is no such thing as one proving they were never saved. Once a person is saved, they could become worse than Hitler and will still be saved.

2. This doesn’t negate the fact of the saved man’s salvation and the apostate's damnation.

Agreed.

3. An apostate knows he is not saved. I don’t see how an apostate can think he is saved? Take Hebrews Ch. 6. It is talking about the rejection of the Holy Spirit. Salvation is rejected. Salvation is not received then rejected; it is just rejected. Salvation is perhaps tasted, but it is never received.

There have been plenty who were led to believe they were saved, for years, to then believe otherwise. You can say they were deceived yes, but how does one know if they were being deceived or not. You can say well when one is indwelled by the Holy Spirit they will know. But these people were deceived into believing they were indwelled by the Holy Spirit. You might say well they didn't display the fruits but not every believer displays the fruits of faith. And some do display them but are again deceived as to their source. None of us can guarantee that we're not being deceived into believing we are believers. This leaves us with 2 and only 2 choices, either one believes in eternal security as I've described (no matter what) in order to have absolute assurance, or leaves us with a moral assurance of salvation and perseverance.

And I don't want to keep harping on the point but it's important that we define our positions clearly so that we don't get bogged down with different rabbit trails down the line.

Honestly I'm not sure yet how to proceed from here as I do not wish that this thread become a point-by-point debate but rather to present our respective cases then ask questions and clarifications. I will be preparing a summary in the next few days, just bear with me as this will be time consuming and time is a precious commodity these days.

[jestes]

The way I look at it is this: If I am honest with myself, I can be sure of my own salvation but not yours. This is exactly why I feel Paul said:,"Who are you to judge another man's servant? To his own master he stands or falls, and he will stand for God is able to make him stand" Paul also said something along the lines of believers being disciplined so they will not be condemned with the rest of the world.

I believe that faith and sin stand in direct opposition to one another. When one is practiced, the other is weakened. I feel that sin slowly destroys faith by removing the conviction a person has of the fact that sin is terrible. When sin has been allowed to totally overcome this person, faith dies. Here's the saving grace, so to speak: The Bible clearly mentions the fact that God disciplines us. Paul said this, Jesus said we would be pruned to bear more fruit, and Peter and/or John spoke of this. Basically, God can and will give us a spanking if we act out too much. What loving parent wouldn't discipline his child? Look at the images from the Hubble telescope. I'd hate to make the one who painted those pictures angry...

At it simplest form, my belief is this: I am and forever will be secure not because of any of my own effort, but because of the fact that Jesus Christ bought me at a price and has absolutely ZERO intention of letting go of someone he loves dearly and was tortured and mutilated to save. He told me He would never leave me. He also told me that He would leave the 99 to come find me if I should wander. He never said He would be "polite" in bringing me back though.

Greater is He who is within me.

[DannyM]

Byblos, sorry if I‘m racing ahead. I‘ll try to address your concerns.

I think you misunderstand me. I'm not saying it is for US to distinguish between a saved person and an apostate, that's only for God to decide. I'm saying the person HIMSELF is not able to tell. There have been plenty of people who really truly thought they were believers to then become militant atheists. At the time they were believers they thought they had absolute assurance but now lead an apostate's life.

Right. Then all I can say is, if they were born again, they will never be lost. I can only take Jesus’ word for it:

John 6:37-40
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Personally I don’t know how a born again believer can become an apostate. If someone wants to say to me they were born again but now don’t believe then I’ll take their word for it. But God is not averse to keeping His word in the face of unbelief. Israel itself being a prime example.

This can happen to anyone Danny, including you and me. Unless you have a crystal ball that looks ahead to the day we die, you don't know weather or not either of us will become apostates (or more to the point, believe that we became apostates). The point of all of this is to say that those who believe one can prove they were never saved to begin with don't actually believe in secured salvation because proving one was never saved is tantamount to destroying assurance. And without assurance there can be no secured salvation.

John, if we start going down the road of ‘we can never really know’ then we are already approaching the apostate’s turf. Are you certain Christ died for you? Are you certain you trusted in Christ? I am and I am. Similarly, I am certain I am saved. If I fall on hard times and go out robbing banks for the rest of my days, I am saved. Now, being born again of Christ, I fail to see how I would ever resort to such things Colossians 3:1,2,3,4 1 Corinthians 1:8 My very union with Christ keeps me strong and preserves me. It doesn’t mean my sin to not sin scales are in credit; it means Christ keeps me strong in the face of adversity.

So the logical conclusion of secured salvation is true OSAS no matter what. There is no such thing as one proving they were never saved. Once a person is saved, they could become worse than Hitler and will still be saved.

If that person is truly born again then, absolutely, they have eternal security. I have a very hard time believing a born again Christian will commit such heinous crimes.

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

There have been plenty who were led to believe they were saved, for years, to then believe otherwise. You can say they were deceived yes, but how does one know if they were being deceived or not.

‘Were led’ to believe they were saved? Led by whom?

You can say well when one is indwelled by the Holy Spirit they will know. But these people were deceived into believing they were indwelled by the Holy Spirit. You might say well they didn't display the fruits but not every believer displays the fruits of faith. And some do display them but are again deceived as to their source.

None of us can guarantee that we're not being deceived into believing we are believers. This leaves us with 2 and only 2 choices, either one believes in eternal security as I've described (no matter what) in order to have absolute assurance, or leaves us with a moral assurance of salvation and perseverance.

I can guarantee you I am not being deceived.

And I don't want to keep harping on the point but it's important that we define our positions clearly so that we don't get bogged down with different rabbit trails down the line.

Honestly I'm not sure yet how to proceed from here as I do not wish that this thread become a point-by-point debate but rather to present our respective cases then ask questions and clarifications. I will be preparing a summary in the next few days, just bear with me as this will be time consuming and time is a precious commodity these days.

Byblos, I understand about the time.

We can only go by what we’ve got. I hope I have answered some of your concerns. But I most certainly believe that once you are saved, you will never be put to shame. I have used an abundance of scripture, consistent in context, to support this view. I’m prepared to be proven wrong, Brother. So I shall brace myself for your return

[Murray]

I believe that faith and sin stand in direct opposition to one another. When one is practiced, the other is weakened. I feel that sin slowly destroys faith by removing the conviction a person has of the fact that sin is terrible. When sin has been allowed to totally overcome this person, faith dies.

That was very well put

[zoegirl]

With these debates it seems like we are always viewing the situation from the finite human view. But if we look at scripture, it seems that the born again, new creation, nothing will separate us from Christ versus always support the view from Christ's perspective that who HE has saved, He will maintain.

That was what always bugged me about previous debates about this topic. No, we don't know whether someone was never a believer or whether they turned away. But it seems that once we have been made a new creation in Christ, that is about not only justification but sanctification....what Christ has declared righteous will be continued to be made righteous. It is not simply about a position (we have been declared righteous), but it is about a relationship and a changed heart (we have been declared righteous and we are being made righteous).

I don't think it will ever be a simple answer, nor is there a simple formula for judging one's journey in their sanctification (which is why we should always be reaching out to fellow believers and supporting and encouraging them in their walk and relationship with Christ). Of course we can't simply believe and then go off and sin, but IF we are a new creation, If we are in a relationship with Christ, then He will not let us continue (isn't that, after all, the work of the Holy Spirit, regenerating hearts, convicting sins?).

But the Christ that is presented in scripture is no wimpy Savior, passive and stoic. He is active and works in us. That doesn't mean we don't have our dark moments, straying from Him, but it seems clear to me from scripture that there is an active and proactive role in saving us. He doesn't just declare us righteous and hope we continue, we are a new creation in Him.

If salvation is that easy to lose, then scripture seems to present a rather schizophrenic salvation, on one hand, there is nothing that can separate us from God and we are a new creation and then, whoops, we are not saved.

[RickD]

I can't believe I've been on these boards as long as I have, and I missed this until now:
http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/s ... r.html#n15
All the searching I've done to try to show why I know I have absolute assurance in Christ, is summed up in that article. Why would I want any other god, except the one true God who promises me I am eternally secure in Him?
Those of you who doubt your salvation, or aren't sure you have absolute assurance of eternal life, accept Christ today.

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:13)