Secured Salvation

[RickD]

You still do not get that as long as you argue that someone can prove they were never saved then you do not believe in secured salvation my friend. There CANNOT be absolute assurance if that assurance can turn out to be a false one. Absolute assurance carries the burden of 'NO MATTER WHAT' and that does include one proving they were never saved, otherwise you're adding a condition to NO MATTER WHAT. Anyway, I'm preparing a post to present my case, it will take a few more days.

Byblos,
I have absolute assurance in Christ. And, I obviously believe that a true believer in Christ, indwelt with the Holy Spirit of God, is promised absolute assurance. The 'NO MATTER WHAT' you speak of only applies to TRUE Christians, not apostates. Danny has been arguing this all along. There is no absolute assurance for someone who is not a new creature in Christ. Absolute assurance can never be proven false in a true believer. 1 John 2:19 states how we know an apostate was never a true believer.

EDIT:
Jlay wrote:

I can assure you of this, I have never met a person who said, "I used to be a Christian," who has ever been able to convince me under the most basic scrutiny. EVERY time, through questioning, I've been able to reveal the deception of their supposed belief.

This shows what I'm trying to tell you. Just because someone claimed he was a true Christian, and claimed absolute assurance, doesn't mean he ever had true redeeming faith in Christ.
I bet if anyone that claimed to be a true Christian, and then said he didn't believe anymore, would fail the test that jlay talked about, as well.

[RickD]

Taken directly from the official Catholic website vatican.va


http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/ponti ... dy_en.html

Pay close attention to this paragraph. The discerning mind will see:

The Catholic Church also maintains with Lutherans that these good works of the justified are always the fruit of grace. But at the same time, and without in any way diminishing the totally divine initiative, they are the fruit of man, justified and interiorly transformed. We can therefore say that eternal life is, at one and the same time, grace and the reward given by God for good works and merits.

[Byblos]

EDIT:
Jlay wrote:

I can assure you of this, I have never met a person who said, "I used to be a Christian," who has ever been able to convince me under the most basic scrutiny. EVERY time, through questioning, I've been able to reveal the deception of their supposed belief.

This shows what I'm trying to tell you. Just because someone claimed he was a true Christian, and claimed absolute assurance, doesn't mean he ever had true redeeming faith in Christ.
I bet if anyone that claimed to be a true Christian, and then said he didn't believe anymore, would fail the test that jlay talked about, as well.

And what is this test exactly and how do we make sure Jlay is not deceived? (no offence J, just making a point).

You and Danny keep repeating the same thing over and over but you still cannot show how you can know for sure you are not being deceived. You or Jlay may not believe someone was a genuine believer and now they are not but that's not the point at all of secured salvation. The person HIMSELF that actually believed at some point he was a believer and is now an apostate, at the time he believed he genuinely thought he had absolute assurance. But it turned out he wasn't a genuine believer and now he has no assurance at all. Let me repeat this: he thought he had the HS in him and absolute assurance, but now he doesn't. What makes you better than him?

Taken directly from the official Catholic website vatican.va


http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/ponti ... dy_en.html

Pay close attention to this paragraph. The discerning mind will see:

The Catholic Church also maintains with Lutherans that these good works of the justified are always the fruit of grace. But at the same time, and without in any way diminishing the totally divine initiative, they are the fruit of man, justified and interiorly transformed. We can therefore say that eternal life is, at one and the same time, grace and the reward given by God for good works and merits.

Yes, please do pay very close attention particularly to the bolded and underlined part.

Let's not look at buzz words but the whole context, shall we? Might I add this was a JOINT declaration agreed upon between Catholics and Lutherans so if you think something is wrong with it you might be condemning a whole lot more than Catholics.

[Byblos]

So here we go,


The following are the topics I would like to address in this post as related to secured salvation and OSAS in general. I will generally cover them as I go and not in any particular order so please don't look for them as separate topics. Hopefully this will serve to clarify my position on the subject.

- What is the plan of redemption
- Are redemption and salvation the same
- Are salvation and eternal life the same
- What are works
- What does scripture say about losing salvation / eternal life

The plan of redemption, what is it?

We see from the OT that the way God deals with his people is through covenants. These covenants can be made with people or nations (a corporate type of covenant), or with individuals (personal covenant). A covenant of any kind is by nature an agreement between two parties where both parties are expected to do certain things or to adhere to certain clauses in that agreement. Ezek. 16:8 is a good description of a biblical covenant. A perfect analogy would be one of marriage and that is what Jesus was referring to in Mt 19:9. Note again how the marriage bond can be broken. Does that nullify the marriage itself? of course not.

God's covenant with the nation of Israel was such that if Israel remains faithful, God will protect Israel and will deliver her from her enemies. And we see evidence of that throughout the OT when Israel was faithful to God, He protected her but when Israel
was not faithful, God did not protect her. So covenants do indeed get broken by one party or both but that's for later. The point for now is that even in the OT we see evidence of the universality of God's covenant. It was open for all, not only for Jews but also to the Egyptians and even the pagans. That is God's plan of redemption for all mankind (1 John 2:2, 1 Tim 2:4).
We partook of the covenant breaking through Adam and now partake of the new covenant of redemption through the blood of Jesus Christ (Rom. 5:12). What kept this covenant going between God and his people? Well it was none other than the high priest (and him alone) making the yearly sacrifice (otherwise known as Yum Kippur) on behalf of the nation of Israel.
That is what kept the covenant bond between God and his people. Weekly sacrifices were done for individual forgiveness of sins.

Unlike the OT, however, in the NT we have enetered into a new and everlasting covenant that is the blood of Jesus Christ. Christ's sacrifice on the cross closed the door on Yum Kippur sacrifices and made the covenant between us and God an everlasting one, a permament one because Jesus is at the right hand of the father and his sacrifice is always made manifest on our behalf. Jesus is our high priest and this covenant will never be broken.

Personal salvation, on the other hand, is an individual choice, a choice to become part of God's new covenant and His Kingdom. What does it mean I am saved? It means I am part of the family that belongs to Christ and no longer part of the family that belongs to Adam. Being in Adam is being dead to God, being in Christ is being alive to God. Alive and made intrinsically righteous by the Holy Spirit.

I happen to believe the mecahnism by which we enter into the new covenant is through baptism, the symbolism of which is between that and Israel (again as a nation) being saved once and for all through the parting of the Red Sea, and Noah and his family being saved through the flood, so are we saved through baptism (Ro 6:3). And here's the shocker, once a person is baptised into Christ they have become a born-again Christian. THERE IS NO WAY THEY CAN UNCHRISTIANIZE. I know this will surprise some people that I'm saying this but there it is. They have become part of the family of believers and partakers of the covevant of grace, they are no longer under the law.

Now does this mean being a Christian is guaranteed eternal life? No, it does not. As I said, salvation is being made part of the family of God through Christ, that is a free gift. Eternal life is conditional on keeping the individual covenant and whether or not one has eternal life is determined at the great judgment. John 5:29 and Romans 2:7 are emphatic on this point.
Does this mean it is salvation by works? Of course not as salvation is the state of being saved from being dead to God through Adam. It is done by Christ and Christ alone as the high priest through his blood that is the new covenant. Inheriting the kingdom of God and eternal life is done through becoming part of the family of God AND keeping the covenant which carries certain promises (an inheritance). Look at Eph 1:11, Eph 1:14, and Eph 1:18 for the promise of this inheritance then look at Mt 19:29 to see what that inheritance, you guessed it, none other than everlasting life. Note particularly how this inheritance is obtained, is it through faith ALONE? I don't think so, it is through the fruits of the spirit made possible by being in the family of Christ and only through him are made possible. Look at Mt 25:34 for more emphasis of that point, then look at 1 Cor 6:9-10, 1 Cor 15:50, Ga 5:21 that show who will not inherit eternal life and contrast that with Romans 2:7 and Heb 6:12.

So works of love and charity are the fruits of the spirit within us, I don't think there ought to be much disagreement there. But what about baptism and repentance, are they works? First let us define what they are, they are called sacraments. The word sacrament means an oath, but whose oath is it? Is it our oath? No it is not,
it is God's oath to us, in baptism to become part of the redemtpive plan, in repentance to partake of his grace of forgiveness, in marriage to manifest the family unit with Christ as the head, etc. etc. They are not my oaths, they are not my doing, there is nothing I can boast about because their effect on me is not of me but of God's. A crude analogy would be for a drowning man to boast of being alive for grabbing a stick someone held out for him so he doesn't drown. We cooperate with God's oaths, we do not claim them as our doing.

To summarize:

- Redemption: Christ established a new and everlasting covenant to prelace the old one that needed to be renewed
- Salvation: Being saved (redeemed) from our union with the old Adam and being placed in union with the new Adam.
- Born again: Being taken out of the life with Adam (which is dead to God) and being placed in Christ
through baptism (and now become alive in Christ) (Rom 6:3-4 and Gal. 3:27).
- Eternal Life: The promise of inheritance of the family that is in the new covenant, made possible by Christ
as well as dispensed by him at the judgement day (John 17:2).

One final note and as always, I honestly do not wish for this to become a debate because we all know where this is going to lead, i.e. a matter of interpretation of scripture. I offer this as an explaianation of what I believe and why I believe it, that is all.

Blessings to all,

John.

[DannyM]

You and Danny keep repeating the same thing over and over but you still cannot show how you can know for sure you are not being deceived.

How am I being deceived, John? Who is deceiving me?

You or Jlay may not believe someone was a genuine believer and now they are not but that's not the point at all of secured salvation. The person HIMSELF that actually believed at some point he was a believer and is now an apostate, at the time he believed he genuinely thought he had absolute assurance. But it turned out he wasn't a genuine believer and now he has no assurance at all. Let me repeat this: he thought he had the HS in him and absolute assurance, but now he doesn't. What makes you better than him?

I'm saying, like the unbeliever in gerneral, this unbeliever is without excuse. The scripture is there to tell him he is of unbelieving heart. Scripture is my final authority, and I'll take God's word over and above some misguided counterfeit's word. Once we have the Holy spirit, there is no going back. So either the scripture is wrong or the counterfeit and apostate are wrong...

[DannyM]

So here we go,


The following are the topics I would like to address in this post as related to secured salvation and OSAS in general. I will generally cover them as I go and not in any particular order so please don't look for them as separate topics. Hopefully this will serve to clarify my position on the subject.

- What is the plan of redemption
- Are redemption and salvation the same
- Are salvation and eternal life the same
- What are works
- What does scripture say about losing salvation / eternal life

The plan of redemption, what is it?

We see from the OT that the way God deals with his people is through covenants. These covenants can be made with people or nations (a corporate type of covenant), or with individuals (personal covenant). A covenant of any kind is by nature an agreement between two parties where both parties are expected to do certain things or to adhere to certain clauses in that agreement. Ezek. 16:8 is a good description of a biblical covenant. A perfect analogy would be one of marriage and that is what Jesus was referring to in Mt 19:19. Note again how the marriage bond can be broken. Does that nullify the marriage itself? of course not.

God's covenant with the nation of Israel was such that if Israel remains faithful, God will protect Israel and will deliver her from her enemies. And we see evidence of that throughout the OT when Israel was faithful to God, He protected her but when Israel
was not faithful, God did not protect her. So covenants do indeed get broken by one party or both but that's for later. The point for now is that even in the OT we see evidence of the universality of God's covenant. It was open for all, not only for Jews but also to the Egyptians and even the pagans. That is God's plan of redemption for all mankind (1 John 2:2, 1 Tim 2:4).
We partook of the covenant breaking through Adam and now partake of the new covenant of redemption through the blood of Jesus Christ (Rom. 5:12). What kept this covenant going between God and his people? Well it was none other than the high priest (and him alone) making the yearly sacrifice (otherwise known as Yum Kippur) on behalf of the nation of Israel.
That is what kept the covenant bond between God and his people. Weekly sacrifices were done for individual forgiveness of sins.

Unlike the OT, however, in the NT we have enetered into a new and everlasting covenant that is the blood of Jesus Christ. Christ's sacrifice on the cross closed the door on Yum Kippur sacrifices and made the covenant between us and God an everlasting one, a permament one because Jesus is at the right hand of the father and his sacrifice is always made manifest on our behalf. Jesus is our high priest and this covenant will never be broken.

Personal salvation, on the other hand, is an individual choice, a choice to become part of God's new covenant and His Kingdom. What does it mean I am saved? It means I am part of the family that belongs to Christ and no longer part of the family that belongs to Adam. Being in Adam is being dead to God, being in Christ is being alive to God. Alive and made intrinsically righteous by the Holy Spirit.

I happen to believe the mecahnism by which we enter into the new covenant is through baptism, the symbolism of which is between that and Israel (again as a nation) being saved once and for all through the parting of the Red Sea, and Noah and his family being saved through the flood, so are we saved through baptism (Ro 6:3). And here's the shocker, once a person is baptised into Christ they have become a born-again Christian. THERE IS NO WAY THEY CAN UNCHRISTIANIZE. I know this will surprise some people that I'm saying this but there it is. They have become part of the family of believers and partakers of the covevant of grace, they are no longer under the law.

Now does this mean being a Christian is guaranteed eternal life? No, it does not. As I said, salvation is being made part of the family of God through Christ, that is a free gift. Eternal life is conditional on keeping the individual covenant and whether or not one has eternal life is determined at the great judgment. John 5:29 and Romans 2:7 are emphatic on this point.
Does this mean it is salvation by works? Of course not as salvation is the state of being saved from being dead to God through Adam. It is done by Christ and Christ alone as the high priest through his blood that is the new covenant. Inheriting the kingdom of God and eternal life is done through becoming part of the family of God AND keeping the covenant which carries certain promises (an inheritance). Look at Eph 1:11, Eph 1:14, and Eph 1:18 for the promise of this inheritance then look at Mt 19:29 to see what that inheritance, you guessed it, none other than everlasting life. Note particularly how this inheritance is obtained, is it through faith ALONE? I don't think so, it is through the fruits of the spirit made possible by being in the family of Christ and only through him are made possible. Look at Mt 25:34 for more emphasis of that point, then look at 1 Cor 6:9-10, 1 Cor 15:50, Ga 5:21 that show who will not inherit eternal life and contrast that with Romans 2:7 and Heb 6:12.

So works of love and charity are the fruits of the spirit within us, I don't think there ought to be much disagreement there. But what about baptism and repentance, are they works? First let us define what they are, they are called sacraments. The word sacrament means an oath, but whose oath is it? Is it our oath? No it is not,
it is God's oath to us, in baptism to become part of the redemtpive plan, in repentance to partake of his grace of forgiveness, in marriage to manifest the family unit with Christ as the head, etc. etc. They are not my oaths, they are not my doing, there is nothing I can boast about because their effect on me is not of me but of God's. A crude analogy would be for a drowning man to boast of being alive for grabbing a stick someone held out for him so he doesn't drown. We cooperate with God's oaths, we do not claim them as our doing.

To summarize:

- Redemption: Christ established a new and everlasting covenant to prelace the old one that needed to be renewed
- Salvation: Being saved (redeemed) from our union with the old Adam and being placed in union with the new Adam.
- Born again: Being taken out of the life with Adam (which is dead to God) and being placed in Christ
through baptism (and now become alive in Christ) (Rom 6:3-4 and Gal. 3:27).
- Eternal Life: The promise of inheritance of the family that is in the new covenant, made possible by Christ
as well as dispensed by him at the judgement day (John 17:2).

One final note and as always, I honestly do not wish for this to become a debate because we all know where this is going to lead, i.e. a matter of interpretation of scripture. I offer this as an explaianation of what I believe and why I believe it, that is all.

Blessings to all,

John.

Lovely stuff, John! I'll start a response on this tomorrow, when I can give it the full attention it deserves.

[Byblos]

You and Danny keep repeating the same thing over and over but you still cannot show how you can know for sure you are not being deceived.

How am I being deceived, John? Who is deceiving me?

You or Jlay may not believe someone was a genuine believer and now they are not but that's not the point at all of secured salvation. The person HIMSELF that actually believed at some point he was a believer and is now an apostate, at the time he believed he genuinely thought he had absolute assurance. But it turned out he wasn't a genuine believer and now he has no assurance at all. Let me repeat this: he thought he had the HS in him and absolute assurance, but now he doesn't. What makes you better than him?

I'm saying, like the unbeliever in gerneral, this unbeliever is without excuse. The scripture is there to tell him he is of unbelieving heart. Scripture is my final authority, and I'll take God's word over and above some misguided counterfeit's word. Once we have the Holy spirit, there is no going back. So either the scripture is wrong or the counterfeit and apostate are wrong...

Danny, you might want to hit Jac up for this one, it is HIS argument I'm using and it makes the most sense wrt secured salvation. There are only two logical positions, either absolute assurance with no ifs, ands, or buts, or there is a moral assurance. If you believe one can prove they never had the spirit and were never saved then you do NOT believe in the former, only the latter.

[RickD]

You or Jlay may not believe someone was a genuine believer and now they are not but that's not the point at all of secured salvation.

It's not up to jlay or me to decide if someone was or is a genuine believer. Jlay was talking about people who made the claim themselves, that they were true believers, and then were not.

he thought he had the HS in him and absolute assurance, but now he doesn't. What makes you better than him?

I don't think I'm better than anyone, Byblos. You said it yourself:"he thought he had the HS in him and absolute assurance, but now he doesn't." The difference is that I know I have the Holy Spirit of God in me. Byblos, do you have the Holy Spirit in you? I am 100% sure I have the "deposit guaranteeing what is to come". That is why I have absolute assurance.

Questions
1) Byblos, do you know you have the Holy Spirit of God inside you?

2) Have you earnestly prayed to God for His guidance and discernment on this?(When I say pray to God, I specifically mean, pray to God in the name of Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit) I don't mean to sound insulting to you when I mention this, as this may be obvious to you, but I just want to be sure we're on the same page here.

[DannyM]

I'm saying, like the unbeliever in gerneral, this unbeliever is without excuse. The scripture is there to tell him he is of unbelieving heart. Scripture is my final authority, and I'll take God's word over and above some misguided counterfeit's word. Once we have the Holy spirit, there is no going back. So either the scripture is wrong or the counterfeit and apostate are wrong...

Danny, you might want to hit Jac up for this one, it is HIS argument I'm using and it makes the most sense wrt secured salvation. There are only two logical positions, either absolute assurance with no ifs, ands, or buts, or there is a moral assurance. If you believe one can prove they never had the spirit and were never saved then you do NOT believe in the former, only the latter.

John, can you remind me, does Jac claim an unbeliever or apostate has salvation because they always had assurance?

[RickD]

There are only two logical positions, either absolute assurance with no ifs, ands, or buts, or there is a moral assurance. If you believe one can prove they never had the spirit and were never saved then you do NOT believe in the former, only the latter.

Byblos,
You keep saying this. EDIT: It seems like you are trying to get us to believe in what you think absolute assurance is. That is a strawman of absolute assurance. That's not what Danny and I are saying absolute assurance is. Danny and I also keep saying that there is absolute assurance for ONLY the true believer.

We cannot convince each other that we are in error. We need the guidance of the Holy Spirit on this.

[RickD]

Byblos,

I need to know that you have been earnestly praying for God's guidance on this, like I thought we agreed upon before this thread got started.

Byblos,
I know you or I wouldn't change each others mind. That's why I asked if you'd pray, as I will. I'm going to ask God, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, to show me where I'm wrong. As I can't convince you, and you can't convince me to change positions, if we are open to Gods correction as He shows us our error, He can convict us of our incorrect beliefs. Just as I believe that I could witness to someone till I'm blue in the face, with no result, until the person is open to Gods calling.

I'm open to the Holy Spirit's correction, are you?

I can't go further in this discussion with you, if I don't have absolute assurance from you , that you are agreeing to this.

[Byblos]

I'm saying, like the unbeliever in gerneral, this unbeliever is without excuse. The scripture is there to tell him he is of unbelieving heart. Scripture is my final authority, and I'll take God's word over and above some misguided counterfeit's word. Once we have the Holy spirit, there is no going back. So either the scripture is wrong or the counterfeit and apostate are wrong...

Danny, you might want to hit Jac up for this one, it is HIS argument I'm using and it makes the most sense wrt secured salvation. There are only two logical positions, either absolute assurance with no ifs, ands, or buts, or there is a moral assurance. If you believe one can prove they never had the spirit and were never saved then you do NOT believe in the former, only the latter.

John, can you remind me, does Jac claim an unbeliever or apostate has salvation because they always had assurance?

I don't want to misrepresent Jac's position but to the best of my recollection he argues exactly as I said, if one is saved there is nothing they can do to even prove they were never saved, no matter how bad the deeds are.

[Byblos]

Byblos,

I need to know that you have been earnestly praying for God's guidance on this, like I thought we agreed upon before this thread got started.

Byblos,
I know you or I wouldn't change each others mind. That's why I asked if you'd pray, as I will. I'm going to ask God, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, to show me where I'm wrong. As I can't convince you, and you can't convince me to change positions, if we are open to Gods correction as He shows us our error, He can convict us of our incorrect beliefs. Just as I believe that I could witness to someone till I'm blue in the face, with no result, until the person is open to Gods calling.

I'm open to the Holy Spirit's correction, are you?

I can't go further in this discussion with you, if I don't have absolute assurance from you , that you are agreeing to this.

Rick, my brother, I am a fallible man who is proven wrong every single day, just ask my wife . I pray to God every day to show me the wisdom I can understand and God has responded by placing me where I belong, in the Catholic Church; of that I am absolutely sure.

[Byblos]

I'm saying, like the unbeliever in gerneral, this unbeliever is without excuse. The scripture is there to tell him he is of unbelieving heart. Scripture is my final authority, and I'll take God's word over and above some misguided counterfeit's word. Once we have the Holy spirit, there is no going back. So either the scripture is wrong or the counterfeit and apostate are wrong...

Danny, you might want to hit Jac up for this one, it is HIS argument I'm using and it makes the most sense wrt secured salvation. There are only two logical positions, either absolute assurance with no ifs, ands, or buts, or there is a moral assurance. If you believe one can prove they never had the spirit and were never saved then you do NOT believe in the former, only the latter.

John, can you remind me, does Jac claim an unbeliever or apostate has salvation because they always had assurance?

Come to think of it yes, I believe Jac would say that. An apostate has salvation because he always had assurance even though he does not now believe it or display it.

[RickD]

Byblos,

I need to know that you have been earnestly praying for God's guidance on this, like I thought we agreed upon before this thread got started.

Byblos,
I know you or I wouldn't change each others mind. That's why I asked if you'd pray, as I will. I'm going to ask God, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, to show me where I'm wrong. As I can't convince you, and you can't convince me to change positions, if we are open to Gods correction as He shows us our error, He can convict us of our incorrect beliefs. Just as I believe that I could witness to someone till I'm blue in the face, with no result, until the person is open to Gods calling.

I'm open to the Holy Spirit's correction, are you?

I can't go further in this discussion with you, if I don't have absolute assurance from you , that you are agreeing to this.

Rick, my brother, I am a fallible man who is proven wrong every single day, just ask my wife . I pray to God every day to show me the wisdom I can understand and God has responded by placing me where I belong, in the Catholic Church; of that I am absolutely sure.

Byblos, I'm getting the strong sense that you aren't agreeing to pray for God's guidance and correction on this specific issue.
How do you know that God didn't place you in the Catholic Church, so that He could show you the error of the Catholic doctrines, first hand, so you'll know for sure when God convicts you that the system you've been following isn't from Him?
There's a very powerful witness to people in a religion, by a person who has lived and believed that system, and has been delivered from it by the power of God.
I believe The Lord is showing me to ask you to pray specifically about discernment in this.