Sovereign?
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PostScript
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Sovereign?
If God is sovereign, then there is nothing outside his control, nothing he doesn't govern. That means that everything happens because he condones it. Everything. How can you reconcile that with him being a loving and kind God? How do you? I am having alot of trouble with this. I just can't.
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Danieltwotwenty
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Re: Sovereign?
If there was no evil or suffering in the world we would not be free will beings as our free will bought sin into the world.
God knew this would happen as he is soverign but he planned for us a way out through Christ.
Our existance in this world is temproal and finite and any suffering incurred is but a small blip in the whole scheme of things and is ultimately nessesary for a free will being.
God knew this would happen as he is soverign but he planned for us a way out through Christ.
Our existance in this world is temproal and finite and any suffering incurred is but a small blip in the whole scheme of things and is ultimately nessesary for a free will being.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.
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narnia4
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Re: Sovereign?
Multiple threads on this topic, different wording comes out all the time... sometimes its emotional, sometimes an attempt at an argument based in reason. But its the same different principle and just about the most addressed question in theology.
A couple of points. Think of any authority figure, a father, a president, a king, anybody. If something happens in their household (or kingdom, whatever) that you consider wrong, would you automatically condone it? Now you'd say that the difference is that they aren't omnipotent, God is. While that's true, its pretty hard to overemphasize the role of free will. God certainly could have made us robots who must serve him, but then is it really serving? I'm not totally set on my definition of evil, but one definition is that evil is simply the absence of good, or God. Wherever we remove God from the picture, that's where evil is. If that's your view evil isn't created by God and it must be allowed if humans are to have the freedom to choose... and if we don't have the freedom to choose than we're just robots. Some have argued that we actually do live in the best possible world when you take into consideration the consequences of free will.
Second, keeping in mind that there won't be any easy answers to this problem, I'd ask a question. Why do you think that suffering, war, famine, death, or anything that is generally considered to be bad actually is wrong? Without God there can be no objective morality... no right or wrong, no good or evil. And yet the existence of objective morality is basic and obvious, we all KNOW that it exists... its a bit humorous to see some try to explain it away half-heartedly when you can tell that they'd rather just avoid the issue, in their hearts they probably don't even believe themselves. So while its a hard problem, the Christian can work through it while the atheist or agnostic has nowhere to go at all.
Besides the things that ARE wrong, I think there's an assumption sometimes that whatever makes us uncomfortable or gives us pain is wrong. Sometimes even on earth we can see the benefits of pain and even see serious loss as a blessing... but that's just this life. Our knowledge of just the universe is incredibly small, who can say for everything that God has in store beyond that? Trying not to sound flippant about serious issues, but especially Christians who are secure in Christ... sometimes they just have to man up (or woman up?). I remember seeing a sad tweet from an NFL player who felt God abandoned him because he dropped a game-winning TD pass. I mean, seriously? Even the serious stuff, to live is Christ to die is gain.
These are just a few ideas, there's so much more to go into on this topic and there are different theories that not everyone agrees on. This is a question everyone will wrestle with and that we will only see part of the answer too, but I truly believe that Christianity answers it well.
A couple of points. Think of any authority figure, a father, a president, a king, anybody. If something happens in their household (or kingdom, whatever) that you consider wrong, would you automatically condone it? Now you'd say that the difference is that they aren't omnipotent, God is. While that's true, its pretty hard to overemphasize the role of free will. God certainly could have made us robots who must serve him, but then is it really serving? I'm not totally set on my definition of evil, but one definition is that evil is simply the absence of good, or God. Wherever we remove God from the picture, that's where evil is. If that's your view evil isn't created by God and it must be allowed if humans are to have the freedom to choose... and if we don't have the freedom to choose than we're just robots. Some have argued that we actually do live in the best possible world when you take into consideration the consequences of free will.
Second, keeping in mind that there won't be any easy answers to this problem, I'd ask a question. Why do you think that suffering, war, famine, death, or anything that is generally considered to be bad actually is wrong? Without God there can be no objective morality... no right or wrong, no good or evil. And yet the existence of objective morality is basic and obvious, we all KNOW that it exists... its a bit humorous to see some try to explain it away half-heartedly when you can tell that they'd rather just avoid the issue, in their hearts they probably don't even believe themselves. So while its a hard problem, the Christian can work through it while the atheist or agnostic has nowhere to go at all.
Besides the things that ARE wrong, I think there's an assumption sometimes that whatever makes us uncomfortable or gives us pain is wrong. Sometimes even on earth we can see the benefits of pain and even see serious loss as a blessing... but that's just this life. Our knowledge of just the universe is incredibly small, who can say for everything that God has in store beyond that? Trying not to sound flippant about serious issues, but especially Christians who are secure in Christ... sometimes they just have to man up (or woman up?). I remember seeing a sad tweet from an NFL player who felt God abandoned him because he dropped a game-winning TD pass. I mean, seriously? Even the serious stuff, to live is Christ to die is gain.
These are just a few ideas, there's so much more to go into on this topic and there are different theories that not everyone agrees on. This is a question everyone will wrestle with and that we will only see part of the answer too, but I truly believe that Christianity answers it well.
Young, Restless, Reformed