The God of the Old Testament

[Short1]

Hey guys, I've recently switched my head around. I'm sitting at a more agnostic point of view. Where I used to get incredibly upset about arguments against Christianity, I now look at both sides of the issue while not freaking out about it all. It's really nice. I'm perfectly okay with either situation. God or no God.

BUT research sucks! People might be lying etc. Bleh..
So time will tell what happens in my life!

Something I'm wondering currently is how Christians would explain the terrible values of the God of the Old Testament. I've been reading atheist points on that and I'm wondering what some explanations are.

ALSO... why are so many religious stories/traditions similar to Christianity's? I watched a video about the morphing of polytheistic ideas into the monotheistic religion of Christianity. What came first? If Christianity didn't come first, why consider it if it's all stories from old religions?

Thanks!

[Silvertusk]

Two books will answer all your questions. "is God a moral monster" by Paul Copan and "the case for the real Jesus" by Lee Strobel.

Also you say you are happy if there is a God or not. My advice to you is that is not a good stance to take as you better be sure of the right answer.

God bless

Silvertusk

[Short1]

Thanks a lot Silvertusk!

This morning I had kind of a burst of 'yearning' for God.. it's been awhile. I thought about Christian music I love.. when I first got into God stuff.
Sometimes I wonder if it is a lifetime of having God that 'brainwashed' me, or that my urges are just from having God in my life for a long time.

Yeah! Anyways I don't know what I will decide in the end, but I will definitely get those books! (Kindle FTW)

I was reading the comments on the "Is God a Moral Monster" page and two people were debating about Original Sin and it was very interesting. The Christian did a great job.

I'm excited to learn! Thanks for the book suggestions. I think I will read The God Delusion also to pick up on other random issues atheists have.

Does your second book cover the origin of religion/whether Christianity is just a conglomeration of man made ideas?

Have a great weekend!

[jestes]

There's a couple of articles on the main site that might be of help to you. I'll link one at the bottom of my post that I'm thinking about. That one basically points out how there are things that the Bible teaches that line up with science in such a way as to point directly to some type of divine inspiration as opposed to a man-made idea. They use examples of the expanding universe, plate tectonics, and so forth that would have all been too far-fetched for man to have invented thousands of years ago. Is it 'possible' that Christianity is made-up? Yes. It is 'probable'? Not a chance.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... _true.html

[Short1]

Atheists claim that the Bible condones slavery, stoning people, killing homosexuals. etc.? They spew it endlessly. Are they taking things out of context?

What is a Christian response to this?

[domokunrox]

Atheists claim that the Bible condones slavery, stoning people, killing homosexuals. etc.? They spew it endlessly. Are they taking things out of context?

What is a Christian response to this?

The bible doesn't condone those moral atrocities, so yes they do take things out of context. Thats the only thing atheists know how to do with the bible, btw.

The christian response is "Stop reading to take things out of context that aren't there. Stop cherry picking verses."

Again, you should take a look at the book recommended. I also recommend On Guard by William Lane Craig instead of The God delusion as Dr. Craig rips Dawkins apart. Dr. Craig is going to be in England in a few short weeks to talk about Dawkins book, and there is going to be an open chair waiting for Dawkins so he has the chance to defend his book. So far, Dawkins refuses to debate with him.

[Silvertusk]

Atheists claim that the Bible condones slavery, stoning people, killing homosexuals. etc.? They spew it endlessly. Are they taking things out of context?

What is a Christian response to this?

Please read "Is God a Moral Monster" that I recommended - it really does answer that question brilliantly.

[PaulSacramento]

Atheists claim that the Bible condones slavery, stoning people, killing homosexuals. etc.? They spew it endlessly. Are they taking things out of context?

What is a Christian response to this?

The book suggest, "Is God a moral monster", is an excellent p;lace to start.
While it is fine to look back in time with our highly evloved sense of "right and wrong", typiclaly based on judeo-christian morals that are carried forth in our society ( let THAT sink in), we do need to take things in context.
Slavery for example, as spoken and legislated about in the OT, is NOT like the slavery we picture in our minds ( the old south in the US and black slaves typiclaly), but more like "endenture servitude" and many times it was voluntary ( to pay off debt) and in the Hebrew culture AFTER the Law was created, it was far more civil and those "slaves" had far more rights than the neighbouring cultures. It was also a provisional law, ie: IF one had a "slave".
It didn't condone slavery but legislated it IF it existed.
That is a very big difference.

[StMonicaGuideMe]

Two books will answer all your questions. "is God a moral monster" by Paul Copan and "the case for the real Jesus" by Lee Strobel.

Also you say you are happy if there is a God or not. My advice to you is that is not a good stance to take as you better be sure of the right answer.

God bless

Silvertusk

It's a GREAT book. Absolutely recommend it. You also have to be commended for having these questions and coming to people who could give you direction. There is so much knowledge required to fully understand the messages of the Bible --history, etymology, language, anthropology, etc -- it's a lot for one person to absorb at one time.
A lot of new to atheism atheists make these mistakes over and over again; they hear ONE really great argument which in-of-itself sounds reasonable, but then they do not do ANY background search to see truly how deep one has to dig to get the answer. Unless you have endless days to dedicate for months at a time, I think anyone would be hard pressed to figure it out and not fall for these misleading messages.

[Christian2]

ALSO... why are so many religious stories/traditions similar to Christianity's? I watched a video about the morphing of polytheistic ideas into the monotheistic religion of Christianity. What came first? If Christianity didn't come first, why consider it if it's all stories from old religions?

Thanks!

Are you talking about the so-called similarities between Christianity and the "mystery" religions? If so,

read "The Gospel and the Greeks" by Ronald Nash.

Article written by Nash:

http://www.summit.org/resources/essays/ ... liability/

I have other links if you are interested.

[StMonicaGuideMe]

Good for you for asking those who can guide you. MUCH of it is always out of context. And context is of various types -- literal, temporal and cultural! They don't even realize this!

And yes, Craig indeed rips that blow-hard a new one. In the best way possible, of course

[Short1]

Thanks for the support guys. I feel like everytime I'm on this site it's for whiny "I'm confused" posts and I really need to just suck it up and live my faith!

There's nothing more worth living for! My personal happiness, success, and my entire purpose in life rests with God. Being alive is not something I'm going to chalk up to an accident. I feel more than that.
God Bless!
This is a great community and I need to spend more time in it working to strengthen my faith from the Christian side of things.

[StMonicaGuideMe]

Blessed be God for this miracle It sounded like your heart was starting to harden, but He met you where you reached. This is His promise, after all! Never stop asking for His grace and He will give it to all who ask even with the smallest little faith. I'm so happy for you! Angels are rejoicing, I am sure. I will pray for you, too.

[andyb1979]

Hey there short1. I'm sure Angels are rejoicing over you, but I am also! I just stumbled across this page and read it. I admire your heart for seeking the truth openly. That yearning you talk of - yes that's the Lord, he came after you as a man with 100 sheep on a mountain

Matthew 18:12
"What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off?"

Regarding your orignal question. I talk with Atheists all the time on message boards and facebook. Yes they say some shocking things really! Also they say some thought provoking things. I have no doubt God can use them to refine our faith and make us think more about His character. A very very common objection is the character of the God of the OT and the canaanite slaughter etc...

Firstly, I believe the objection is not born out of morality or genuinely seeking. If this were so the question would be "Why is this the case?" not a statement "Your god is evil". Nevertheless I try to answer because there may be some in the crowd that read it that needed to hear that answer.

So, back on track. The old testament had lots of laws and statements where God commanded people to be killed. For instance, the canaanites in the above example were to be driven out of the land of Canaan (now Israel/palestine area) and all who remain to be killed, including women and children. Harsh stuff. However if you go to the British museum you can see an idol to the god of baal that the canaanites worshipped. This was an iron structure in the shape of a human figure with hands cupped together in an iron bowl. Baal was the god of fire. In the cupped bowl they would place children and underneath they would light a strong fire. The children were burned alive until dead while the prophets of baal would chant and beat drums. This is a truly truly wicked act. If such a nation existed today they would have been invaded by Nato by now.

Another practice of the canaanites was to sacrifice to Molech. To do this they would seal young children in clay pots and bury them, alive, under their houses. These pots have been excavated and the contorted skeletons of children who clearly had suffered found inside.

Reading this back makes me so sad. I personally am glad I'm not the judge, but if ever I saw a people in need of judgement, its people like this. The commandment God gave to drive the people out and kill them if they remained was critical to ensuring that these practices did not survive. Israel did not obey the command and some stayed, intermarrying with the israelites. As a result throughout the OT we see the gods of baal, molech and others being worshipped by the israelites and their practices being adopted in Israel. This is what God wanted to prevent as He had a plan to deliver the salvation of the world in Jesus through the Israelites.

Back to the present day. There are a lot of people out there in internet-land who rail against God and His premises. To me the evidence for God is in the goodness He brings to everything He touches. I have studied apologetics and although it is good, the strongest evidence I've witnessed is the joy in a person's eyes when they realise they are significant, they are saved, forgiven and loved.

Be careful and always keep God close to you in prayer. If you feel under attack or your faith starts to perish, don't allow yourself to drift but call on Jesus in prayer, or on a Christian brother or sister (as you have done above!).

[andyb1979]

Another book you may be interested in is "Eternity in their hearts" by Don Richardson.


Goes a long way to explaining why so many ancient folk lores are similar to Christianity - because God was preparing the cultures of the world for the gospel. Really an incredible eye-opening account, I would suggest believers and non-believers alike read it. From the reviews:

Richardson shows that God has revealed himself to "all his children" by planting a root for the Gospel within each culture, so when we call people to Christ, we call them to the deepest truths within their own cultures. I remember the first time I visited the Temple of Heaven in Beijing, China, 16 years ago. Who was this "Heaven" whom the Chinese worshiped? Why did the emperor come once a year, just like the high priest in Israel, to sacrifice for the sins of the people? As I stood in the most sacred spot in China, it seemed as if a Voice spoke to my heart. "Do you think I just came to China with the missionaries? No. I have been here all along. I made China."

Many years of research in China confirmed this to me. Among the tribal cultures of southern China and Taiwan, the Polynesians, and China itself, I came across many examples that confirmed Richardson's thesis. Later, I wrote a book called True Son of Heaven: How Jesus Fulfills the Chinese Culture, and spoke around the Pacific Rim on the subject. People in the audience often pointed out further examples of this thesis.