It really upsets me to see Christians railing against the circularity bogy man. I’m not sure if this is a result of being brow-beaten by atheists into believing this nonsense. I feel this is doing a great disservice to apologetics. Now, to those Christians afraid of the CBM, please abandon this lunacy and do not allow yourself to be dictated to by incoherent atheists.
Imagine someone asking you whether the meter stick in your house was actually a meter long. How would you demonstrate such a thing? You could take it to your next-door neighbor and compare it to his meter stick and say, "see, it's a meter." However, the next question is obvious, "How do we know your neighbor's meter stick is really a meter?" This process would go on infinitely unless there were an ultimate meter stick (which, if I am not mistaken, actually existed at one time and was measured by two fine lines marked on a bar of platinum-iridium alloy). It is this ultimate meter stick that defines a meter.
When asked how one knows whether the ultimate meter stick is a meter, the answer is obviously circular: The ultimate meter stick is a meter because it is a meter. This same thing is true for Scripture. The Bible does not just happen to be true (the meter stick in your house), rather it is the very criterion for truth (the ultimate meter stick) and therefore the final stopping point in intellectual justification”
DannyM wrote:It really upsets me to see Christians railing against the circularity bogy man. I’m not sure if this is a result of being brow-beaten by atheists into believing this nonsense. I feel this is doing a great disservice to apologetics. Now, to those Christians afraid of the CBM, please abandon this lunacy and do not allow yourself to be dictated to by incoherent atheists.
Imagine someone asking you whether the meter stick in your house was actually a meter long. How would you demonstrate such a thing? You could take it to your next-door neighbor and compare it to his meter stick and say, "see, it's a meter." However, the next question is obvious, "How do we know your neighbor's meter stick is really a meter?" This process would go on infinitely unless there were an ultimate meter stick (which, if I am not mistaken, actually existed at one time and was measured by two fine lines marked on a bar of platinum-iridium alloy). It is this ultimate meter stick that defines a meter.
When asked how one knows whether the ultimate meter stick is a meter, the answer is obviously circular: The ultimate meter stick is a meter because it is a meter. This same thing is true for Scripture. The Bible does not just happen to be true (the meter stick in your house), rather it is the very criterion for truth (the ultimate meter stick) and therefore the final stopping point in intellectual justification”
Danny, I'm not sure what you're gettin at here? Could you splain it fur us less learned folks here?
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
DannyM wrote:It really upsets me to see Christians railing against the circularity bogy man. I’m not sure if this is a result of being brow-beaten by atheists into believing this nonsense. I feel this is doing a great disservice to apologetics. Now, to those Christians afraid of the CBM, please abandon this lunacy and do not allow yourself to be dictated to by incoherent atheists.
Imagine someone asking you whether the meter stick in your house was actually a meter long. How would you demonstrate such a thing? You could take it to your next-door neighbor and compare it to his meter stick and say, "see, it's a meter." However, the next question is obvious, "How do we know your neighbor's meter stick is really a meter?" This process would go on infinitely unless there were an ultimate meter stick (which, if I am not mistaken, actually existed at one time and was measured by two fine lines marked on a bar of platinum-iridium alloy). It is this ultimate meter stick that defines a meter.
When asked how one knows whether the ultimate meter stick is a meter, the answer is obviously circular: The ultimate meter stick is a meter because it is a meter. This same thing is true for Scripture. The Bible does not just happen to be true (the meter stick in your house), rather it is the very criterion for truth (the ultimate meter stick) and therefore the final stopping point in intellectual justification”
DannyM wrote:It really upsets me to see Christians railing against the circularity bogy man. I’m not sure if this is a result of being brow-beaten by atheists into believing this nonsense. I feel this is doing a great disservice to apologetics. Now, to those Christians afraid of the CBM, please abandon this lunacy and do not allow yourself to be dictated to by incoherent atheists.
Imagine someone asking you whether the meter stick in your house was actually a meter long. How would you demonstrate such a thing? You could take it to your next-door neighbor and compare it to his meter stick and say, "see, it's a meter." However, the next question is obvious, "How do we know your neighbor's meter stick is really a meter?" This process would go on infinitely unless there were an ultimate meter stick (which, if I am not mistaken, actually existed at one time and was measured by two fine lines marked on a bar of platinum-iridium alloy). It is this ultimate meter stick that defines a meter.
When asked how one knows whether the ultimate meter stick is a meter, the answer is obviously circular: The ultimate meter stick is a meter because it is a meter. This same thing is true for Scripture. The Bible does not just happen to be true (the meter stick in your house), rather it is the very criterion for truth (the ultimate meter stick) and therefore the final stopping point in intellectual justification”
Danny, I'm not sure what you're gettin at here? Could you splain it fur us less learned folks here?
Give over!
Lost in translation from British English to American English. What does "Give over!" mean?
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
DannyM wrote:It really upsets me to see Christians railing against the circularity bogy man. I’m not sure if this is a result of being brow-beaten by atheists into believing this nonsense. I feel this is doing a great disservice to apologetics. Now, to those Christians afraid of the CBM, please abandon this lunacy and do not allow yourself to be dictated to by incoherent atheists.
Imagine someone asking you whether the meter stick in your house was actually a meter long. How would you demonstrate such a thing? You could take it to your next-door neighbor and compare it to his meter stick and say, "see, it's a meter." However, the next question is obvious, "How do we know your neighbor's meter stick is really a meter?" This process would go on infinitely unless there were an ultimate meter stick (which, if I am not mistaken, actually existed at one time and was measured by two fine lines marked on a bar of platinum-iridium alloy). It is this ultimate meter stick that defines a meter.
When asked how one knows whether the ultimate meter stick is a meter, the answer is obviously circular: The ultimate meter stick is a meter because it is a meter. This same thing is true for Scripture. The Bible does not just happen to be true (the meter stick in your house), rather it is the very criterion for truth (the ultimate meter stick) and therefore the final stopping point in intellectual justification”
The issue is quite simply this:
Is the bible authoritive because IT says so, or is it authoritive because IT IS so?
You will NEVER convince any atheist or skeptic that the bible is authoritive because IT says so.
Don't even bother trying that argument because it simply won't work.
We prove the bible by showing the bible is correct in regards to the OTHER Ways God h as revealed Himself to Us.
The issue is that why SOME ways are acceptable to a believer ( divine revelation) they are not acceteable to a non-believer.
If I get Dan's drift, he is using the anaolgy of whether a meter stick is a meter stick in comparison to recent posts which claim that the Bible contains the words of God but it is not the "Word of God". The position conveyed by such an expression, just like the meter stick that is not a meter, is both illogical and impossible.
I hope you don't mind me jumping in on this topic Dan but it is an important point you brought up.
A revelation in writing must necessarily be given in "words." The separate words therefore in which it is given, must have the same importance and authority as the revelation as a whole. If we accept the Bible as a revelation from God, and receive it as inspired by God, we cannot separate the words of which that inspired revelation is made up.
The Bible is its own best proof of its inspiration. It claims to be "the Word of God"; (Mark 7:13) and if it be not what it claims to be, then it is not only not a "good book," but is unworthy of further attention. Jesus is not saying here in Mark that tradition makes Him, the living Word irrelevant; He is saying tradition makes His 'Written Word' irrelevant.
I, like Dan, cannot understand the position of those who assert and believe that many of the Bible's parts are myths, mistranslations and forgeries, while at the same time they continue to quote it, write commentaries upon it and accept endorsements and dignities for preaching or lecturing about it. The Bible simply claims to be the Word of God. It does not attempt to establish its claim, or seek to prove it. It merely assumes it and asserts it. It is for us to believe it or to leave it. But, by believing it, our aim then is to seek to understand what God has thus written for our learning.
There are a number of concepts that arise because of this claim, that set Christianity in opposition to the very spirit of our age.
Objectivity
True Christianity starts from the premise that there is a source of truth outside of us. God’s Word is truth (Psalm 119:160; John 17:17). It is objectively true—meaning it is true whether it speaks subjectively to any given individual or not; it is true regardless of how anyone feels about it; it is true in an absolute sense. But authentic Christianity regards Scripture as the objective revelation of God’s truth. It is God’s Word to humanity, and its true meaning is determined by God; it is not something that can be shaped according to the preferences of individual hearers. (2Pet 1:21) and (Rev 19:10).
Rationality
Biblical Christianity is also based on the conviction that the objective revelation of Scripture is rational. The Bible makes good sense. It contains no contradictions, no errors, and no unsound principles. Anything that does contradict Scripture is untrue. As Christians, we know that God cannot lie (Titus 1:2). He does not contradict Himself. His truth is perfectly self-consistent. That sort of black-and-white rationality is one of the main reasons biblical Christianity is intolerable in a generation that rejects reason and why many Christians are turned off because church to them is anything but a place where they go to learn about the Bible. They sing songs and pray and listen to a pastor give a nice sermon about whatever the pastor feels inclined about speaking of that day, many times, having nothing to do with Biblical literacy or concepts and they become pew potatoes. My usual question to these Christians is, "What did you learn from the Bible at Church today, if your church in fact taught the Bible?" Compare churches today to what was taught in (Acts 17:11)
Veracity
Authentic Christianity is based on the conviction that God’s objective revelation (the Bible) approached rationally yields divine truth in perfectly sufficient measure. Everything we need to know for life and godliness is there for us in Scripture. We don’t need to seek principles for godly or successful living through any other source. Scripture is not only wholly truth; it is also the highest standard of all truth—the rule by which all truth-claims must be measured.
Authority
Because Christians believe Scripture is true, they teach its precepts with authority and without apology. The Bible makes bold claims, and faithful Christians affirm it boldly and without compromise.
Incompatibility
Scripture says, “No lie is of the truth” (1John 2:21). As Christians, we know that whatever contradicts truth is by definition false. In other words, truth is incompatible with error. Jesus Himself affirmed the utter exclusivity of Christianity. He said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” (John 14:6). “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).
Moreover, as Christians we understand that whatever opposes God’s Word or departs from it in any way is a danger to the very cause of truth.
Integrity
Since all of the above is true, genuine Christianity sees integrity as an essential virtue and hypocrisy as a horrible vice.
Unfortunately, the church in our generation is drifting from these fundamental convictions and has already begun to embrace postmodern ideas uncritically. Many churches do not teach the Bible anymore and so the sheep, starve. Evangelicalism is quickly losing its footing, and the church is becoming more and more like the world. Fewer and fewer Christians are willing to stand against the trends, and the effects have been disastrous. Subjectivity, irrationality, worldliness, uncertainty, compromise, and hypocrisy have already become commonplace among churches and organizations that once constituted the evangelical mainstream.
There are two types of people in our world: those who believe in Christ and those who will.
If Christianity is a man-made religion, then why is its doctrine vehemently against all of man's desires?
Every one that is of the truth hears my voice. Jesus from John 18:37
Absolutely. There is enough evidence for the accuracy of the bible in history, and fulfilled prophesy, that we can make an argument of its truthfulness, if we choose to do so.
Are Christians using circular reasoning when they employ an internal defense of Scripture?
No. If the bible were a set of books making claims without any evidence that what it says was true, then I could possibly see how using it to defend itself could be construed as of circular reasoning.
Danny, I missed the point of the article you posted, because I always assume the bible is true. Just like I assume God exists. I just assumed all Christians use the bible in a complete, consistent, manner to defend itself. That's the only way to be sure we're not just pulling verses out willy-nilly to make an argument that the bible itself doesn't support.
I also believe nature and the bible to be in complete agreement with each other. I also have the witness of the Holy Spirit that confirms the bible to be true. Unbelievers can only see the things of God, If they are open, and the Holy Spirit opens their eyes.
Anyway, I'm not sure if that's what you are getting at.
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
PaulSacramento wrote:The issue is quite simply this:
Is the bible authoritive because IT says so, or is it authoritive because IT IS so?
You will NEVER convince any atheist or skeptic that the bible is authoritive because IT says so.
So what? I couldn't give a brass farthing whether the atheist is convinced or not. Can God authenticate His own existence *outside* of Himself? Is God's self-revelation untrustworthy because it is circular? Is Christ's self-attestation untrustworthy because it is circular?
Please answer these questions, Paul.
Don't even bother trying that argument because it simply won't work.
Did you read the paper? It *does* work by pointing out the atheist's *own* circularity when he tries to reason.
We prove the bible by showing the bible is correct in regards to the OTHER Ways God h as revealed Himself to Us.
The issue is that why SOME ways are acceptable to a believer ( divine revelation) they are not acceteable to a non-believer.
The unbeliever has natural revelation (or general revelation) and still can't grasp the world he inhabits.
The Bible makes good sense. It contains no contradictions, no errors, and no unsound principles. Anything that does contradict Scripture is untrue.
Gen 32:30 states "...for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."
John 1:18 states, "No man hath seen God at any time..."
James 1:13 says "..for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."
Gen 22:1 says "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham..."
Gen 2:17 says "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day thou eastest thereof thou shalt surely die [note: it doesn't say 'spiritual' death]
Gen 5:5 says "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died."
Lev 11:6: "And the hare, because he cheweth the cud..."
Hare do not chew the cud.
This is the typical response one would get from a skeptic/atheist.
Katabole wrote:If I get Dan's drift, he is using the anaolgy of whether a meter stick is a meter stick in comparison to recent posts which claim that the Bible contains the words of God but it is not the "Word of God". The position conveyed by such an expression, just like the meter stick that is not a meter, is both illogical and impossible.
I hope you don't mind me jumping in on this topic Dan but it is an important point you brought up.
It's my pleasure to have you to jump in, my Brother. You've got it. There is an ultimate meter stick sitting somewhere (as per the paper) and beyond that there is no way of the meter stick authenticating itself *outside* of itself.
Now that's out the way, I'm looking forward to reading the rest of your post.
PaulSacramento wrote:Allow me to play devil's advocate if I may:
The Bible makes good sense. It contains no contradictions, no errors, and no unsound principles. Anything that does contradict Scripture is untrue.
Gen 32:30 states "...for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."
John 1:18 states, "No man hath seen God at any time..."
James 1:13 says "..for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."
Gen 22:1 says "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham..."
Gen 2:17 says "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day thou eastest thereof thou shalt surely die [note: it doesn't say 'spiritual' death]
Gen 5:5 says "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died."
Lev 11:6: "And the hare, because he cheweth the cud..."
Hare do not chew the cud.
This is the typical response one would get from a skeptic/atheist.
Discussing scripture with the atheist is an exercise in futility, Paul. They need to believe in order to understand.
