What is hell like?

[DannyM]

I believe Jesus went to Hades after his crucifixion, not hell. Perhaps it's just semantics.

Either way, Bro, the lake of fire is everlasting, and it'll be no holiday camp!

So, what you are saying, is that there is no Chelsea Football Club in the lake of fire?

Coming to Chelsea in the 80s was Hell for away supporters, I know that much

Beware the football hooligan!!!

Me, Rick? Nah ... But the atmosphere of those days was incredible.

[Katabole]

Jesus uses the illustration of the garbage pit called Gehenna outside of Jerusalem, transliterated as the English word Hell. It would have been filled with dead carcases of animals and because of that, filled with maggots and worms. The fires were lit to burn rubbish and because of the population of the city, the fires probably burned continually. Jesus claims the worm dieth not, three times in Mark 9, again referring (literally I believe) to the garbage pit and not eternal "Hell" fire. I don't understand how worms (maggots) can live in eternal fire or why worms would even be there, if Jesus is not being literal here.

In Isa 66:24 a figure of speech is utilized called an Aganactesis; or Indignation, which is an expression of feeling by way of indignation, which is the same figure Christ employs in Mark ch 9, "where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched". Even in Isaiah's time, the valley of Gehenna called the valley of Hinnom was used for refuse collection and would have been filled with worms (maggots) and burned daily with fires.

Kat, this is speaking of the new order.

Yes. Check out verse 5. God claims He is making "everything" new.

Now to the key part:

8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practise magic arts, the idolaters and all liars— their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulphur. This is the second death.

Verse 8 clearly says it is the second death and is a reference back to the previous chapter, ch 20 of Rev because death had already been done away with in Rev 20:14.

What about our spirits? The soul is what gives us mind, will, and emotions. Some animals have souls(Nephesh). Humans are the only creatures with spirits(made in the image of God). Spirits are eternal(in the had a beginning, but no ending kind of eternal). That's why I don't agree with annihilation.

According to 1Cor 15:44, there is a natural body and a spiritual body. I believe the soul is the intellect or mind of the spiritual body. I would disagree that spirits are eternal because I believe that only those who believed in Christ are resurrected with an immortal soul in the first resurrection. Those who didn't will have a mortal soul, meaning it's still liable to die and unlike those who attain the first resurrection, they will either attain the second resurrection or suffer the second death.

What about our spirit? Or, are you confusing souls and spirits, perhaps?

Lol, I hope not.

[RickD]

According to 1Cor 15:44, there is a natural body and a spiritual body. I believe the soul is the intellect or mind of the spiritual body. I would disagree that spirits are eternal because I believe that only those who believed in Christ are resurrected with an immortal soul in the first resurrection. Those who didn't will have a mortal soul, meaning it's still liable to die and unlike those who attain the first resurrection, they will either attain the second resurrection or suffer the second death.

I guess here's where we disagree. I believe the soul is the mind, so to speak of the physical body. Like I said before, there are other creatures with souls, but not eternal spirits. If the soul is the "intellect or mind" of the spiritual body, then animals with a soul, would go to heaven. I can't see any biblical evidence for animals having the possibility of eternal life through Christ.

[Katabole]

I can't see any biblical evidence for animals having the possibility of eternal life through Christ.

I don't know if animals would have eternal life through Christ but according to the last verse of Rev 4, God created all things for his pleasure which would include animals. In Rev 21 there will be a new order of things and I believe it is partially described in Isaiah ch 11. Notice predators and prey both domesticated and wild animals in complete harmony.

6The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

7And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

8And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

9They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

A lion eating straw like an ox. That would be worth the price of admission.

[DannyM]

Jesus uses the illustration of the garbage pit called Gehenna outside of Jerusalem, transliterated as the English word Hell. It would have been filled with dead carcases of animals and because of that, filled with maggots and worms. The fires were lit to burn rubbish and because of the population of the city, the fires probably burned continually. Jesus claims the worm dieth not, three times in Mark 9, again referring (literally I believe) to the garbage pit and not eternal "Hell" fire. I don't understand how worms (maggots) can live in eternal fire or why worms would even be there, if Jesus is not being literal here.

In Isa 66:24 a figure of speech is utilized called an Aganactesis; or Indignation, which is an expression of feeling by way of indignation, which is the same figure Christ employs in Mark ch 9, "where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched". Even in Isaiah's time, the valley of Gehenna called the valley of Hinnom was used for refuse collection and would have been filled with worms (maggots) and burned daily with fires.

What it says to me is their bodies will never be destroyed by the fire but will burn forever. The Bible constantly uses the language of eternal punishment and contempt.

Daniel 12:2

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power.

But I’ll look into your explanation, Bro.

Kat, this is speaking of the new order.

Yes. Check out verse 5. God claims He is making "everything" new.

Yes, and this is still referring to the new order.

Now to the key part:

8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practise magic arts, the idolaters and all liars— their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulphur. This is the second death.

Verse 8 clearly says it is the second death and is a reference back to the previous chapter, ch 20 of Rev because death had already been done away with in Rev 20:14.

I agree. And the second death is everlasting punishment. At least it seems to me that this is what the Bible consistently teaches.

God bless

[RickD]

I can't see any biblical evidence for animals having the possibility of eternal life through Christ.

I don't know if animals would have eternal life through Christ but according to the last verse of Rev 4, God created all things for his pleasure which would include animals. In Rev 21 there will be a new order of things and I believe it is partially described in Isaiah ch 11. Notice predators and prey both domesticated and wild animals in complete harmony.

6The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

7And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

8And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

9They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

A lion eating straw like an ox. That would be worth the price of admission.

I understand what you're saying, but what does it have to do with what I said here:

I believe the soul is the mind, so to speak of the physical body. Like I said before, there are other creatures with souls, but not eternal spirits. If the soul is the "intellect or mind" of the spiritual body, then animals with a soul, would go to heaven.

I just see the spirit of man, as the difference between man and all other animals. The spirit allows fellowship with God, and I can't see the spirit being anything but eternal.

Matthew 25:46
Jude 1:7
Both these verses talk about eternal punishment, not annihilation.

[B. W.]

What is hell like?

B.W., You might wanna take this one. Christian2, you really might want to hear B.W.'s story.

Okay, guess I'll try. To do so, please know that I do not like to post links about myself but this is from a TV show Docudrama about my testimony - it is a little Hollywoodish in style but it was made for a secular audience so please note that. I post this to help this thread… and play catch up for those who do not know who I am. With a testimony like mine, people reactions to me are mixed and I do have think skin…

Enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5IhTW3-RQQ
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[B. W.]

but is eternal in the sense that it has no end.

If Hell doesn't have an end, why then is it cast into the lake of fire?

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

The second death happens when the unsaved are reunited with a physical body, involves the final commuting of sentence...

The first death results in judgment, the unredeemed, are sent into a holding area to await the final commuting of the sentence of judgment.

Please note that there is a White Throne Judgment where the final sentence is decreed.

Matthew 25:46 refers to this as being eternal duration – lasting just as long as eternal life in Christ last.

The first death, the spiritual essences of a person is involved and the second death the spiritual essence is rejoined with a body and the sentence is commuted.

These are the basic biblical principles well substantiated within the bible. I can post these again if you like to continue Katobole and those who think on the temporality of hell and eternal nothingness.
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[B. W.]

...I believe the lake of fire is a figure of speech and that God will consume all evil at the end of this age in the same way he consumed Aaron's sons and those of Korah's rebellion, consuming everything about them, including the memory that others have about them, IMHO.

You say that the lake of fire is a figure of speech, yet, the words translated die, death, second death. perishing, etc, cannot be used as figure of speech and only mean annihilation...into non-being...

A little pick and choosing we have going on - do we???

You are trying to make human sentimentality the measure of biblical interpretation, please consider avoiding doing this. God remains true to his own nature and character to the absolute degree. For him not too, would make him less than God. That is God's Holy standard. Making human sentimentality the measure of biblical interpretation actually seeks and demands that God must go against himself, his word, his oaths, his promises to appease human sentimentality. This, God will not do.

The test of truthful doctrine is to measure it honestly with all who God says He is revealed within the bible. All - not selected parts...

That is how we must continue this discourse and find the truthful answers about his subject.

So to begin with:

Would God extinguishing life into a non-existing state go against his nature and character in any way or manner?

Is there scripture that indicates that God did not blast off any mortal or angelic being into non-existence for rebellion/sin? If so, Why or why not?
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[B. W.]

What is hell like?

I agree with Dr. JP Morland’s take on hell. He was interviewed in the book, “The Case For Faith” by Lee Strobel. I found an article written by him on the Internet and I will quote from it from time to time. When I quote from the article I will put the text in blue.

1. Hell is real. Hell is probably not a location but it is a part of the universe. Sort of like going through a door into another kind of existence.
2. Hell is not a torture chamber.
3. Hell is separation or banishment from God. It brings shame anguish and regret. (gnashing of teeth), a state of anger or realization of great loss.
4. Hell is a place of punishment.
5. There will be different degrees of punishment in hell.
6. Hell is not a pleasant place.

...Any thoughtful comments would be welcome.

Thanks

For starters, Christian2, there is some truth in what JP Moreland says but it is not the whole enchilada. So be cautious - that would be my thoughtful comment

So here are brief comments in Blue for the following statements you posted

1. Hell is real. Hell is probably not a location but it is a part of the universe. Sort of like going through a door into another kind of existence.

Bible teaches the current Hell as within the earth, it is part of the universe due to this, in another dimension within the inside of the earth – The earth opened and swallowed Korah’s group and took them all alive into the current hell. There is a future hell called the Lake of Fire in which the current hell is cast into and that would be somewhere in the new universe the best I can deduce form the closing chapters of the Book of Revelation. And yes, it is entering another kind of existence.

2. Hell is not a torture chamber.

Hell was designed for the devil and his fallen angels and those who follow after his rebellion. These beings do indeed inflict torture, as well as a person inflicting his/her own torture. However God is not torturing anyone. Luke 16:19-31 account shows that the politically rich powerful guy was not being tortured by God but suffered by his own induced affliction – reaping what he had sown in another’s life – barren, forgotten..ignored….

3. Hell is separation or banishment from God. It brings shame anguish and regret. (gnashing of teeth), a state of anger or realization of great loss.

This is true – Luke 16 account of Richman shows this clearly. But there is more, the current hell is mentioned as a holding center – Isaiah 24:22 where one awaits the final caring out of sentence. Job 26: 5, 6 reveals the principle that Hell’s purpose is to uncover the real person to themselves and for all to see. One’s true sin nature is made manifest in the current hell. What one sows, they reap…

4. Hell is a place of punishment.

Correct – punishment is recompense – what one sows, they reap… People sow to their sin nature is true…

5. There will be different degrees of punishment in hell.

Correct – some are not directly afflicted by demons but are tormented by their own doings in life – re-living them in a never ending series of nightmares that exposes them for who and what they really are. They cannot camouflage this. It is not a pretty sight. Later demonic beings may help out a bit in this exposing. (I am only speaking here of the testimony by a former dead guy what I saw) The bible does speak of degrees of punishment/recompense in hell. Luke 10:13, 14, 15, 16 lays forth this principle by the word translated tolerable in the NKJV text. This does not negate the feeling of utter isolation, fear, abandonment, or degrees of reaping what one has sown.

6. Hell is not a pleasant place.

Absolutely and as Jesus said – must be avoided at all cost!

However, standing before the Living God as an unsaved person is more terrifying in my opinion than Hell. Why, you see who and what you abandoned in exchange for a lie…and why...

Hope this helps… Christian2
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[Katabole]

I can post these again if you like to continue Katobole and those who think on the temporality of hell and eternal nothingness.
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No, you don't have to BW. We both have previously made our positions on this subject crystal clear on this thread:

Infinite Punishment for Finite Sins
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... punishment

It would be an exercise of futility on my part to explain any further because we both vehemently object to the other's view surrounding this topic.

[B. W.]

I can post these again if you like to continue Katobole and those who think on the temporality of hell and eternal nothingness.
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No, you don't have to BW. We both have previously made our positions on this subject crystal clear on this thread:

Infinite Punishment for Finite Sins
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... punishment

It would be an exercise of futility on my part to explain any further because we both vehemently object to the other's view surrounding this topic.

That is fair then, people can look back at the link you provided Katabole.

Have a blest day!
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[Christian2]

What is hell like?

I agree with Dr. JP Morland’s take on hell. He was interviewed in the book, “The Case For Faith” by Lee Strobel. I found an article written by him on the Internet and I will quote from it from time to time. When I quote from the article I will put the text in blue.

1. Hell is real. Hell is probably not a location but it is a part of the universe. Sort of like going through a door into another kind of existence.
2. Hell is not a torture chamber.
3. Hell is separation or banishment from God. It brings shame anguish and regret. (gnashing of teeth), a state of anger or realization of great loss.
4. Hell is a place of punishment.
5. There will be different degrees of punishment in hell.
6. Hell is not a pleasant place.

...Any thoughtful comments would be welcome.

Thanks

For starters, Christian2, there is some truth in what JP Moreland says but it is not the whole enchilada. So be cautious - that would be my thoughtful comment

So here are brief comments in Blue for the following statements you posted

1. Hell is real. Hell is probably not a location but it is a part of the universe. Sort of like going through a door into another kind of existence.

Bible teaches the current Hell as within the earth, it is part of the universe due to this, in another dimension within the inside of the earth – The earth opened and swallowed Korah’s group and took them all alive into the current hell. There is a future hell called the Lake of Fire in which the current hell is cast into and that would be somewhere in the new universe the best I can deduce form the closing chapters of the Book of Revelation. And yes, it is entering another kind of existence.

2. Hell is not a torture chamber.

Hell was designed for the devil and his fallen angels and those who follow after his rebellion. These beings do indeed inflict torture, as well as a person inflicting his/her own torture. However God is not torturing anyone. Luke 16:19-31 account shows that the politically rich powerful guy was not being tortured by God but suffered by his own induced affliction – reaping what he had sown in another’s life – barren, forgotten..ignored….

3. Hell is separation or banishment from God. It brings shame anguish and regret. (gnashing of teeth), a state of anger or realization of great loss.

This is true – Luke 16 account of Richman shows this clearly. But there is more, the current hell is mentioned as a holding center – Isaiah 24:22 where one awaits the final caring out of sentence. Job 26: 5, 6 reveals the principle that Hell’s purpose is to uncover the real person to themselves and for all to see. One’s true sin nature is made manifest in the current hell. What one sows, they reap…

4. Hell is a place of punishment.

Correct – punishment is recompense – what one sows, they reap… People sow to their sin nature is true…

5. There will be different degrees of punishment in hell.

Correct – some are not directly afflicted by demons but are tormented by their own doings in life – re-living them in a never ending series of nightmares that exposes them for who and what they really are. They cannot camouflage this. It is not a pretty sight. Later demonic beings may help out a bit in this exposing. (I am only speaking here of the testimony by a former dead guy what I saw) The bible does speak of degrees of punishment/recompense in hell. Luke 10:13, 14, 15, 16 lays forth this principle by the word translated tolerable in the NKJV text. This does not negate the feeling of utter isolation, fear, abandonment, or degrees of reaping what one has sown.

6. Hell is not a pleasant place.

Absolutely and as Jesus said – must be avoided at all cost!

However, standing before the Living God as an unsaved person is more terrifying in my opinion than Hell. Why, you see who and what you abandoned in exchange for a lie…and why...

Hope this helps… Christian2
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Thanks for your comments.

The problem I have with my position is what the ECF's said about hell.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-rel ... 0301/posts

especially what Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp said:

Ignatius of Antioch

Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire, and so will anyone who listens to him (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2 [A.D. 110]).

The Martyrdom of Polycarp

Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).

It appears both thought the fire was real fire and since both are supposed to be disciples of Apostle John, then their position should carry some weight, unless when they said "fire" they meant judgment.

Or unless what they said in the original language said something other than what the English translation is.

The accusation I am dealing with is that it is unfair for God to punish sinners for all eternity.

[PaulSacramento]

Hell is like New Orleans, only cleaner.

[B. W.]

....Thanks for your comments.

The problem I have with my position is what the ECF's said about hell.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-rel ... 0301/posts

especially what Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp said:

Ignatius of Antioch

Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire, and so will anyone who listens to him (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2 [A.D. 110]).

The Martyrdom of Polycarp

Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).

It appears both thought the fire was real fire and since both are supposed to be disciples of Apostle John, then their position should carry some weight, unless when they said "fire" they meant judgment.

Or unless what they said in the original language said something other than what the English translation is.

The accusation I am dealing with is that it is unfair for God to punish sinners for all eternity.

The early church fathers understood the gravity of sin, not only what it is, but what it does. To basically sum it up in simplest form: Sin seeks to have God to act contrary to himself in dealing with it. It pits the laws of God against the laws of God through moral gaming of those laws. A lot of people who have come to this form pose such moral gaming in attempts to discredit God, dismiss and dismantle Christianity.

One such view is the very view you posted stating that it is unfair for God to sentence a person to an eternity of recompense for temporal sins. Not sure if you see it or not, that it seeks to coerce God to go against his own absolute standards of his very own nature and character. It lacks understanding of eternity and what an unsurrendered person to God’s way of change in this mortal now will be after gaining understanding of one’s own new found eternal nature and a deeper understanding of who God is.

Isaiah 26:10 puts forth the principle that answers this very thing a unredeemed person entering heaven will continue to seek to game God’s good name/character because he/she will not behold the majesty of the Lord. Let me apply original word definition to the text so you’ll gain insight on this.

Isaiah 26:10, “Let grace (mercy) be shown to the wicked (actually means- those found guilty of transgression), yet he will not learn righteousness; in the land of uprightness (only such land as this is where God found – Heaven) he will deal unjustly, and will not behold (not see, not acknowledge what beyond one’s self to learn or know) the majesty (majesty refers to – God’s exalted works/deeds/ character) of the LORD.” Paraphrased

Such individuals would turn heaven into what it is like here on this earth right now and make it worse. How, by pitting attributes of God’s exalted works and character against each other in order to escape retribution and over throw God. A Holy God will not permit this and for that we should be thankful.

Lastly, What I meant four paragraphs up about how one gains understanding of one’s own new found eternal nature and a deeper understanding of who God is after their mortal being dies, is that God according to his own life giving nature and character designed human beings as having an eternal nature with a definite beginning at mortal birth. That is part of the reflection of Himself He fashion human beings under. He breathed the breath of life into Adam. What God does endures forever. He placed eternity within the heart. Ecclesiastes 3:11, 14 speak of this.

God slays mortal life with death due to sin to bring one into his judgment. The spiritual essence of a person continues on because it is God who gave it. God reneges on no gift or promise or oath. Because of this, God does not murder a person into a non-being state for to do so goes against who and what he is. Sin sees this as weakness about God and seeks to entrap God to act contrary knowing He won’t, in order to continue sin in order to disprove God to Himself that He is God.

God designed Hell originally for the Devil and his fallen angelic followers. These entrapped humanity with the same sins that seek to disprove God to himself – those found guilty will be sent there for all eternity. God will not deny himself one iota. Rather heavy stuff to digest but it is all scripturally sound. Sin within an eternal being remains sin eternally. Such needs to be eternally dealt with by an absolutely just God.

I hope you can now see what the argument that states, "unfair for God to punish sinners for all eternity" is really about...
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