Carnivorous animals before the fall...

[carpentersson]

Perhaps you're right, since Genesis does not directly say if God meant that His creation was "very good" in a physical sense or "very good" in a spiritual sense or both.
But I can't help but ask why our Lord mentions 5 times in Genesis how He observed that the creation was so "good"?

He had a good relationship with Adam and Eve, walking and talking with them until that first sin of the serpent.
Before that first sin, He makes it abundantly clear that things were fine, perhaps so that the guilty have no excuse to put God at fault for a messed up environment.
After this sin and spiritual separation, our Lord no longer repeats anything in Genesis about "very good".
Anyway, God is spirit and His purpose is spiritual and while this universe might be rolled up as a scroll, the creation is not really temporary but just changing and progressing toward His ultimate spiritual purpose, that very good Kingdom in heaven.

[PaulSacramento]

Perhaps we need to realize that the garden of Eden was NOT like the rest of the world.
Perhaps there was indeed a "harmonious existence" between all the animals in the Garden, there was no death and killing there.

[RickD]

Perhaps we need to realize that the garden of Eden was NOT like the rest of the world.
Perhaps there was indeed a "harmonious existence" between all the animals in the Garden, there was no death and killing there.

While that's possible, Paul, it's not likely, IMO. If there was no death, the law of entropy didn't exist, in the garden. I just find that difficult to believe.

[RickD]

After this sin and spiritual separation, our Lord no longer repeats anything in Genesis about "very good".

I think God pronounced things as very good, after He finished creating them. After God created Adam and Eve, His creative work was done, and God rested on the 7th day. God will resume His creation work on the 8th day, when He creates the new heaven, and new earth.

But I can't help but ask why our Lord mentions 5 times in Genesis how He observed that the creation was so "good"?

It seems to me, God is pronouncing things as "good" after He created them. There seems to be a "and God saw it was good" for each "day" of creation, except for the 2nd creation day. God must have had a really good day on the 3rd, and 6th creation days, because there were 2 "and it was good(s)" on the 3rd day, and a "very good" at the end of the 6th day.

[RickD]

the creation is not really temporary but just changing and progressing toward His ultimate spiritual purpose, that very good Kingdom in heaven.

I believe this creation was created as a temporary creation. It is "very good" for its purpose of eliminating evil. Then, I believe, God will create an everlasting(permanent) creation, where we will be with Him forever. I think the new heaven and earth, will be a brand new creation. Not a "re-creation" of the garden, which was part of the temporary creation, and therefore subject to all the laws that the rest of the temporary creation is subject to.

[PaulSacramento]

Perhaps we need to realize that the garden of Eden was NOT like the rest of the world.
Perhaps there was indeed a "harmonious existence" between all the animals in the Garden, there was no death and killing there.

While that's possible, Paul, it's not likely, IMO. If there was no death, the law of entropy didn't exist, in the garden. I just find that difficult to believe.

Why?

[RickD]

Perhaps we need to realize that the garden of Eden was NOT like the rest of the world.
Perhaps there was indeed a "harmonious existence" between all the animals in the Garden, there was no death and killing there.

While that's possible, Paul, it's not likely, IMO. If there was no death, the law of entropy didn't exist, in the garden. I just find that difficult to believe.

Why?

The way creatures metabolize food, the sun burning, the bible saying that the garden was watered by natural sources. That means plants grow. The garden was an ecosystem. Ecosystems, in order to function properly, involve death and natural recycling.

[PaulSacramento]

Perhaps we need to realize that the garden of Eden was NOT like the rest of the world.
Perhaps there was indeed a "harmonious existence" between all the animals in the Garden, there was no death and killing there.

While that's possible, Paul, it's not likely, IMO. If there was no death, the law of entropy didn't exist, in the garden. I just find that difficult to believe.

Why?

The way creatures metabolize food, the sun burning, the bible saying that the garden was watered by natural sources. That means plants grow. The garden was an ecosystem. Ecosystems, in order to function properly, involve death and natural recycling.

Ah, I understand what you mean now.
According to OUR natural laws, yes, but there is no reason to believe that OUR natural laws apply to something "outside" nature as we know it.
It may well be that the GOE was a "portal" to a universe ( heaven on earth if you will) in which energy behaves differently.

[RickD]

Perhaps we need to realize that the garden of Eden was NOT like the rest of the world.
Perhaps there was indeed a "harmonious existence" between all the animals in the Garden, there was no death and killing there.

While that's possible, Paul, it's not likely, IMO. If there was no death, the law of entropy didn't exist, in the garden. I just find that difficult to believe.

Why?

The way creatures metabolize food, the sun burning, the bible saying that the garden was watered by natural sources. That means plants grow. The garden was an ecosystem. Ecosystems, in order to function properly, involve death and natural recycling.

Ah, I understand what you mean now.
According to OUR natural laws, yes, but there is no reason to believe that OUR natural laws apply to something "outside" nature as we know it.
It may well be that the GOE was a "portal" to a universe ( heaven on earth if you will) in which energy behaves differently.

Ok Paul, where in the bible does it even hint at what you're saying?
Adam and eve weren't created with immortal bodies. They only lived forever if they ate of the tree of life, correct? Nothing in the text says the garden had different laws than the rest of creation.

[PaulSacramento]

We are just discussing probablities Rick
Personally I don't see where either Genesis account states that things were any different (survival wise) that they are now ( in regards to the circle of life).
What I am just "hypothesizing" is that: IF things were indeed different in the GOE then perhaps that is quite possible.

[RickD]

We are just discussing probablities Rick
Personally I don't see where either Genesis account states that things were any different (survival wise) that they are now ( in regards to the circle of life).
What I am just "hypothesizing" is that: IF things were indeed different in the GOE then perhaps that is quite possible.

Huh? I thought you were trying to argue for things being different inside the garden? I'm confused.

[carpentersson]

Again, the age old confusion between the physical and the spiritual meanings.

"You will surely die." What kind of death, physical or spiritual or both?
What actual physical tree has fruit that gives any knowledge?
And what kind of life is meant by the "tree of life"...physical/temporal life or spiritual/eternal life or what?
Adam was walking in the garden...did he never step on an ant?
And about plants, Genesis 1:29, God gives plants for food. Are plants not also physically alive and must physically die to be eaten?
And when are we allowed to justify our particular beliefs by supposing that God must have changed His natural laws here and there when there is no scripture to support such an idea?
God warned Adam and Eve of the spiritual consequences of taking in new knowlege which "opened their eyes", spiritual eyes, not physical eyes.
Duhhh

[PaulSacramento]

We are just discussing probablities Rick
Personally I don't see where either Genesis account states that things were any different (survival wise) that they are now ( in regards to the circle of life).
What I am just "hypothesizing" is that: IF things were indeed different in the GOE then perhaps that is quite possible.

Huh? I thought you were trying to argue for things being different inside the garden? I'm confused.

Just thinking of a "what if", that's all.

[RickD]

We are just discussing probablities Rick
Personally I don't see where either Genesis account states that things were any different (survival wise) that they are now ( in regards to the circle of life).
What I am just "hypothesizing" is that: IF things were indeed different in the GOE then perhaps that is quite possible.

Huh? I thought you were trying to argue for things being different inside the garden? I'm confused.

Just thinking of a "what if", that's all.

Gotcha.

[neo-x]

I personally think death was always in God's plan, that the garden was indeed affected by natural laws, (unless Adam and eve were in zero gravity )

If there was no death, then that is certainly troubling, because in time to come, animals reproducing but not dying would create a shift in the natural balance of nature. Same is the case with all living creatures. Also, I can't think how the carnivores could eat grass? Their dental profile is not made for that kind of thing. It is nearly impossible.