Can physics and chemistry account for ... ?
- neo-x
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Re: Can physics and chemistry account for ... ?
I think 1over has a valid point, in both proofs, step 3 is being glided over without proper proof. For example, if you take step 3 as a precondition and move it to "prove A" clause, then it becomes circular. This way anything can be logically proved.
Danny,
I don't think, 1over is playing with you. I think she is just trying to show you the flaw in the argument, that it could go both ways.
By the way, this argument is a typical example of how scientists hypothesized a lot of quantum physics or so I am told. :p
Danny,
I don't think, 1over is playing with you. I think she is just trying to show you the flaw in the argument, that it could go both ways.
By the way, this argument is a typical example of how scientists hypothesized a lot of quantum physics or so I am told. :p
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.
I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.
//johnadavid.wordpress.com
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.
I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.
//johnadavid.wordpress.com
- 1over137
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Re: Can physics and chemistry account for ... ?
@neo: Thanks friend.
@Danny: Here is another example:
Prove A: Everything can be reduced to the physical.
Step 1: assume opposite ~A: Everything cannot be reduced to the physical.
Step 2: ~A --> B: If everything cannot be reduced to the physical then God does exist.
Step 3: ~B: God does not exist.
Step 4: ~~A: It is not the case that everything cannot be reduced to the physical.
Step 5: A: Everything can be reduced to the physical.
@Danny: Here is another example:
Prove A: Everything can be reduced to the physical.
Step 1: assume opposite ~A: Everything cannot be reduced to the physical.
Step 2: ~A --> B: If everything cannot be reduced to the physical then God does exist.
Step 3: ~B: God does not exist.
Step 4: ~~A: It is not the case that everything cannot be reduced to the physical.
Step 5: A: Everything can be reduced to the physical.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
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Re: Can physics and chemistry account for ... ?
Neo, the proof is by reductio ad absurdum, and it is perfectly valid.neo-x wrote:I think 1over has a valid point, in both proofs, step 3 is being glided over without proper proof. For example, if you take step 3 as a precondition and move it to "prove A" clause, then it becomes circular. This way anything can be logically proved.
Danny,
I don't think, 1over is playing with you. I think she is just trying to show you the flaw in the argument, that it could go both ways.
By the way, this argument is a typical example of how scientists hypothesized a lot of quantum physics or so I am told. :p
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Re: Can physics and chemistry account for ... ?
Okay, so you're not playing games, you just don't get it. That's fine.
Please go to the former proof, get hold of step 3, and refute it. I refuted step 3 of your bogus proof, and yet here you are, with another bogus proof. So, if you are not playing games, then prove it. Go and refute step 3 of that former proof.1over137 wrote:Here is another example:
Prove A: Everything can be reduced to the physical.
Step 1: assume opposite ~A: Everything cannot be reduced to the physical.
Step 2: ~A --> B: If everything cannot be reduced to the physical then God does exist.
Step 3: ~B: God does not exist.
Step 4: ~~A: It is not the case that everything cannot be reduced to the physical.
Step 5: A: Everything can be reduced to the physical.
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Re: Can physics and chemistry account for ... ?
DannyM wrote:If the concept of love is to lie within the domain of the discipline of evolutionary psychology, then we'd all better pack up and go home now, for knowledge of how we ought to love and how we ought to think is abandoned, replaced by a dubious, descriptive psychology. And we are reduced to self-referential absurdity.
If anyone needed reminding ... Naturalism fails on all counts.
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To sustain the belief that there is no God, atheism has to demonstrate infinite knowledge, which is tantamount to saying, “I have infinite knowledge that there is no being in existence with infinite knowledge".
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Re: Can physics and chemistry account for ... ?
ofcourse brother Danny, on ontological basis, it is,Neo, the proof is by reductio ad absurdum, and it is perfectly valid.
My only objection to it, was that through reductio ad absurdum, any argument can be proved regardless of the fact that the argument is true or false. And even if the argument is true to begin with, there would be multiple contexts of that truth, and each side would choose respectively and try to conclude things.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.
I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.
//johnadavid.wordpress.com
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.
I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.
//johnadavid.wordpress.com
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Re: Can physics and chemistry account for ... ?
Neo, the argument is entirely valid by proving the impossibility of the contrary. It may not convince you, Brother, but the proof is sound. If it wasn't a sound proof then step 3 could be dealt with. Fact is it can't be dealt with. But others being unconvinced won't make me back away from the proof. 1over challenged the proof by re-wording it, giving me a separate step 3 to refute. And I did. 1over asked for the proof of If knowledge, then God. So I gave it. I didn't just dig it out and throw it up from leftfield, Bro.neo-x wrote:ofcourse brother Danny, on ontological basis, it is,Neo, the proof is by reductio ad absurdum, and it is perfectly valid.
My only objection to it, was that through reductio ad absurdum, any argument can be proved regardless of the fact that the argument is true or false. And even if the argument is true to begin with, there would be multiple contexts of that truth, and each side would choose respectively and try to conclude things.
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Re: Can physics and chemistry account for ... ?
I know bro, and I never implied that you did.Neo, ... I didn't just dig it out and throw it up from leftfield, Bro.
![Give me a hug y>:D<](./images/smilies/yahoo/60.gif)
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.
I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.
//johnadavid.wordpress.com
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.
I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.
//johnadavid.wordpress.com
- 1over137
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Re: Can physics and chemistry account for ... ?
I apologize for misunderstandings. I came to this forum to learn and not to pick fights. I see that for you the proposition that knowledge cannot be account in a godless universe is true. I do not see it. So, for some time we will disagree on this. I started to read that 30-pages-long article but already at page 5 I needed to look at reference 12 which is fortunately on web (at least the pages 1-10) http://books.google.sk/books?id=p40tc_T ... &q&f=false. So I am reading it now. It's not easy stuff.DannyM wrote:Okay, so you're not playing games, you just don't get it. That's fine.
I have a quoestion: What according to you a knowledge is? If I kick the stone it hurts. So I have a knowledge that kicking stones hurts. Or not? Please forgive me, if I have lay guestions.
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But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
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Re: Can physics and chemistry account for ... ?
Hana I‘m sorry, my mistake. I go on the defensive when I think I‘m being mucked about. I misread the signals and I‘m sorry.
On naturalism, all arguments are the product of the naturalistic processes going through your brain, and rational debate is reduced to the equivalent of the chemical arrangement of your brain fighting against the chemical arrangement of my brain. Who’s right? Naturalism fails to adequately explain the uniformity in human thought. It cannot account for the assumed objectivity of truth. If you think it can, please explain it to me because I haven’t seen it yet.
I don’t think I’m great at putting the point across at times, so just say if it doesn’t make sense.
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1over137 wrote:I see that for you the proposition that knowledge cannot be account in a godless universe is true. I do not see it.
On naturalism, all arguments are the product of the naturalistic processes going through your brain, and rational debate is reduced to the equivalent of the chemical arrangement of your brain fighting against the chemical arrangement of my brain. Who’s right? Naturalism fails to adequately explain the uniformity in human thought. It cannot account for the assumed objectivity of truth. If you think it can, please explain it to me because I haven’t seen it yet.
Knowledge is justified true belief. I think it was Plato who called it true belief with an account. We necessarily think a certain way (and this is connected to knowledge claims). I’m talking about a little more than the knowledge of being sentient.1over137 wrote:I have a quoestion: What according to you a knowledge is? If I kick the stone it hurts. So I have a knowledge that kicking stones hurts. Or not? Please forgive me, if I have lay guestions.
I don’t think I’m great at putting the point across at times, so just say if it doesn’t make sense.
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Re: Can physics and chemistry account for ... ?
I would very much like to see some definitions of knowledge in the context it is being used here.
The stone kicking got me thinking. The knowledge confirms a God argument is one I haven't totally gotten my mind around.
A person who never kicks a stone can 'know' it would hurt, because one human can communicate using abstract tokens a concrete truth. When I read a sign, "slippery when wet," I am receiving information. Is this knowledge in how it is being used here?
The stone kicking got me thinking. The knowledge confirms a God argument is one I haven't totally gotten my mind around.
A person who never kicks a stone can 'know' it would hurt, because one human can communicate using abstract tokens a concrete truth. When I read a sign, "slippery when wet," I am receiving information. Is this knowledge in how it is being used here?
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"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
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Re: Can physics and chemistry account for ... ?
Like I said, Justified true belief. Truth is necessary to knowledge. Knowledge presupposes truth. Naturalism cannot give a rational account for the uniformity in human thought that reasons to universal truths.jlay wrote:I would very much like to see some definitions of knowledge in the context it is being used here.
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Re: Can physics and chemistry account for ... ?
Are there different dimensions?1over137 wrote:@neo: Thanks friend.
@Danny: Here is another example:
Prove A: Everything can be reduced to the physical.
Step 1: assume opposite ~A: Everything cannot be reduced to the physical.
Step 2: ~A --> B: If everything cannot be reduced to the physical then God does exist.
Step 3: ~B: God does not exist.
Step 4: ~~A: It is not the case that everything cannot be reduced to the physical.
Step 5: A: Everything can be reduced to the physical.
If so, then beings limited to a third dimension world view are truly limited in testing the physical world around them.
Therefore, would this limitation absolutely nullify existence within the realm of other dimensions?
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Re: Can physics and chemistry account for ... ?
J,
More specifically, we're talking about propositional knowledge.
http://www.theoryofknowledge.info/propo ... ledge.html
And again this link: http://www.proginosko.com/docs/knowledg ... heism.html
More specifically, we're talking about propositional knowledge.
http://www.theoryofknowledge.info/propo ... ledge.html
And again this link: http://www.proginosko.com/docs/knowledg ... heism.html
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Re: Can physics and chemistry account for ... ?
DannyM wrote:![]()
![Image](http://www.hanka.hluchy.sk/pics/thanks.gif)
(Could this smiley be added to others smileys also together with
![Image](http://www.hanka.hluchy.sk/pics/hands.gif)
Now back to the discussion.
OKDannyM wrote: On naturalism, all arguments are the product of the naturalistic processes going through your brain, and rational debate is reduced to the equivalent of the chemical arrangement of your brain fighting against the chemical arrangement of my brain.
I do not see a problem here if our debate was e.g. about physical laws.DannyM wrote: Who’s right?
Uniformity in human thought? I do not understand what you mean here.DannyM wrote: Naturalism fails to adequately explain the uniformity in human thought.
I think that naturalism can account for the objectivity of truth. Again, if our debate was about physical laws then we could find out whose statement was true.DannyM wrote: It cannot account for the assumed objectivity of truth. If you think it can, please explain it to me because I haven’t seen it yet.
Take again physical laws. Everybody is subjected to the law of gravity. Belief that I return back to the ground when I jump is justified. So, knowledge can be accounted for in a godless universe. (Or not?)DannyM wrote: Like I said, Justified true belief. Truth is necessary to knowledge. Knowledge presupposes truth.
If you accept that there are other dimensions we never ever find out that they are, why not to accept another (and bizzare) things to exist?B. W. wrote:Are there different dimensions? If so, then beings limited to a third dimension world view are truly limited in testing the physical world around them. Therefore, would this limitation absolutely nullify existence within the realm of other dimensions?1over137 wrote: Prove A: Everything can be reduced to the physical.
Step 1: assume opposite ~A: Everything cannot be reduced to the physical.
Step 2: ~A --> B: If everything cannot be reduced to the physical then God does exist.
Step 3: ~B: God does not exist.
Step 4: ~~A: It is not the case that everything cannot be reduced to the physical.
Step 5: A: Everything can be reduced to the physical.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
#foreverinmyheart