Answering atheists responses to laws of logic

[B. W.]

...I'm not sure, i get worked up over macro-evolution and the irony of evolution in general. It seems so contradictory to God's character. I think i'll think it over.

Ho SpartanII,

Think the things over I mentioned and explore those original word meanings. That will help more than you realize (Proverbs 25:2).

Next, it appears to me that your ‘getting’ worked up over macro-evolution and evolution in general is masking something deeper that is gnawing on you. What is it obfuscating?

Now on to another point, I was once like your friend you mentioned an atheist. However, the arguments of atheism during my day were not as sophisticated as they have currently developed during this current day. Nevertheless, the tactics are still the same, to instill doubt through ridicule, use of intellectual intimidation, and ‘jargoning’ the argument. I used these stratagems before my conversation to Christ. I stumbled people like you yourself and regret doing that. This grants me insight into this: you appear to me to have started something before you were ready too.

I could never-stumble a Christian who had a lick of salt in his or her excellence of knowledge for in their wisdom they had life that I did not have. Do you desire that kind of salt?

The wisdom that the knowledge of atheism and evolution produce is a life of turmoil. My own turmoil produced a life less desired so I masked it with ever seeking more knowledge that my ancestry was sea sludge – my hope, was only in this life and what hope I did find was slowly eroded away by shifting moral sands. Misery loves company, so I guess that is why atheist hold pep-talk conventions.

The theory of evolution has a long and well documented tainted history of fraud and deceit, Pigs teeth turned into a human being, bone fragments once thought humanoid but later test – another unrelated animal of antiquity. Scholars and professors falsifying records and documentation and lastly redefining the definition of words like science and evolution.

Science in its Latin form meant simply Exploration of knowledge but now changed to mean, knowledge that is tested only by physical and material mean. Next, the definition of Evolution used to mean only how one species could change into another entirely different species to nowadays is defined as adaptation. With a record like that, the irony of evolutionism is that the physical and material evidence of its integrity is shaky and doubtful. A tree is known by its fruit.

What is being produced in you is not producing life, is it? So what is it that is really gnawing at you, not what is obfuscating, but really deep down bothering you?
-
-
-

[jlay]

Byb, the arguments of why evolution seems contrary to Christian Theism are pretty well established. It hasn't been my M.O. to drag into those type of debates.

I appreciate kls LENGTHY reply, but I don't follow that particular line of reasoning. Often from this position we hear the term 'Bible stories', and I can't help but deduce that this term is used as a presumption that they are not literal.

But we have direct word from god that 1000 years are like a day and a day is like 1000 years.

Another example. i don't think it is sound exegesis to take something out of context (Peter) and randomly apply it elsewhere in the scripture. This is simply proof texting to support one's assumptions.

Or, saying things, such as time is irrelevant to God. God may create, control and exist above time, but it is certainly not irrelevant to Him.

[Byblos]

Byb, the arguments of why evolution seems contrary to Christian Theism are pretty well established. It hasn't been my M.O. to drag into those type of debates.

No debate intended J, I'm familiar with some of the arguments put forth but wasn't aware they were well established so anything you can point me to would be greatly appreciated. For example, how would non-TE theists answer the fused chromosome argument (referenced in the youtube link)? I've really never seen a satisfactory answer to that. And again, not to debate but in an effort to gain a little more insight on the subject.

[kls]

Byb, the arguments of why evolution seems contrary to Christian Theism are pretty well established. It hasn't been my M.O. to drag into those type of debates.

I appreciate kls LENGTHY reply, but I don't follow that particular line of reasoning. Often from this position we hear the term 'Bible stories', and I can't help but deduce that this term is used as a presumption that they are not literal.

But we have direct word from god that 1000 years are like a day and a day is like 1000 years.

Another example. i don't think it is sound exegesis to take something out of context (Peter) and randomly apply it elsewhere in the scripture. This is simply proof texting to support one's assumptions.

Or, saying things, such as time is irrelevant to God. God may create, control and exist above time, but it is certainly not irrelevant to Him.

I really don't see how something is out of context when the subject at hand is did God create the world in a time frame, when days are a measurement of time. Given that it is a direct measurement of time, we should find reference to what God says about time and apply it to that measurement. Just because it was said in a non-linear fashion does not make it irrelevant to the subject at hand, and given that it about the application and measure of time it is certainly within context. It would be no different than a politician saying at an event, that he support abortion and then saying, that that position cannot be used as a frame of reference, at a later date, when he is arguing about the value of life when arguing against the death penalty. God's view of time is very relevant to whether a literal man day is applicable to god.

As well, I personally don't see them as fictional stories, I think all the items in the bible happened. But the bible was also a guide for us as well as shepherds 1000 years ago, it is constructed and fabricated in human words and human words are woefully inadequate at conveying certain concepts, especially when those words have to convey it to many tongs as well as in many times. It is the reason for so many interpretations of what the bible actually says. Some of them are willful corruptions but others are genuine lack of conveyance of a concept, that therefore get's misinterpreted. There is a saying in physics that you never really learn physics until you learn mathematics. The summation of which is, some concepts are too difficult to describe with words and therefore only math can model the true picture. God would know this human deficiency and try to create his word as given to man in a form that can convey the important parts and the reality is whether or not we evolved is irrelevant to where we are going and Gods plan. But if we did, we need to help explain how it is consistent with creation, so that people who see the truths of science are not alienated from God's light. We need to explain how it could, not that it did.


As for time being irrelevant to God, it may have been a poor choice of words on my part, the concept that I was trying to convey is that, in the context of God being constrained by time. Not that God sees no purpose for time. I sceed that if it was irrelevant in that capacity, then God would have had no need to fabricate it as a dimension.

You will have to forgive me, I am new here, if there is a custom and tradition as to how long posts should be, please let me know, I tend to be a verbose person. But I most certainly would like to follow the etiquette of this forum.

[Byblos]

You will have to forgive me, I am new here, if there is a custom and tradition as to how long posts should be, please let me know, I tend to be a verbose person. But I most certainly would like to follow the etiquette of this forum.

Personally I tend to get lost in long posts but that's probably attributable to my short attention span. In general though, as long as you're on topic there is no established limit as to the length of a post.

[RickD]

Byb, the arguments of why evolution seems contrary to Christian Theism are pretty well established. It hasn't been my M.O. to drag into those type of debates.

No debate intended J, I'm familiar with some of the arguments put forth but wasn't aware they were well established so anything you can point me to would be greatly appreciated. For example, how would non-TE theists answer the fused chromosome argument (referenced in the youtube link)? I've really never seen a satisfactory answer to that. And again, not to debate but in an effort to gain a little more insight on the subject.

I'm also interested in hearing an explanation for that. But it would have to be in layman's terms. That stuff can be difficult to understand.

[kls]

You will have to forgive me, I am new here, if there is a custom and tradition as to how long posts should be, please let me know, I tend to be a verbose person. But I most certainly would like to follow the etiquette of this forum.

Personally I tend to get lost in long posts but that's probably attributable to my short attention span. In general though, as long as you're on topic there is no established limit as to the length of a post.

Thanks, I will do my best to keep them as compact as I can.

[StMonicaGuideMe]

“If there were no God, there would be no atheists.”

Gotta love Chesterton. So many miss his wit.

[spartanII]

Evolution, as it's happened over 4.1 billion years doesn't seem like God's character. It doesn't seem all knowing to have a plethora of animals walk the earth for a billion years then have a meteor strike France/Mexico driving 99% of all known life forms to extinction. The same goes for man's transitioning forms (homo erectus, neanderthal etc. etc.)
Also, about the laws of logic... I have yet to get a reply about Koko, the ape that scored 90 on an IQ test and through sign language tells her owners that she's still depressed about her mother passing and is gonna tell her offspring about it. What use is logic to man then if animals are thinking this deep of thoughts?

[MarcusOfLycia]

“If there were no God, there would be no atheists.”

Gotta love Chesterton. So many miss his wit.

Just finished Heretics and am in the middle of Orthodoxy. Good stuff

[spartanII]

I just read an article on Koko. I found nothing about the IQ test but she knows over 1000 words but they are simple concepts like "lie" is "fake" or "flower" is "stink." From what I read Koko's parents didn't die, another ape she knew parents died.

[kls]

I just read an article on Koko. I found nothing about the IQ test but she knows over 1000 words but they are simple concepts like "lie" is "fake" or "flower" is "stink." From what I read Koko's parents didn't die, another ape she knew parents died.

One thing about philosophical issues like the emotional state of intelligent animals like Chimps is to remember that there are a lot of bias and agendas in the biological sciences. A great deal of animal activists enter the field to promote preservation of the animals. By no means does that discredit their motives as being noble or worthy of action, but it does mean that we must remain skeptical and understand that these individuals would have an active interest in promoting, the human like natures of these animals. Because it would directly benefit them in their preservation ambitions. That in no way refutes that they may very well have high level emotional capabilities, but as far as concerning ones self with spiritual belief, we are well served to remember that, that bias is real and does exist and we should weigh our spiritual value, against that bias and judge which one is more important to base our outlook on. Please note I am in no way trying to refute your observation, they are very legitimate questions and extremely thought provoking.

[jakobp]

Well it seems that there are other animals such as dogs and dolphins that can also learn sign language, it isn't just koko. Koko just knows a lot more because he was trained a lot more than usual. I just believe that intelligence is a part of evolution and that even us human have evolved in intelligence over the years, it doesn't mean that us and the chimps are the same, its just that we are a higher more evolved version. what i would we be talking about is why do certain animals such as dolphins and chimps have the capabilities of being self aware and having consciousness, that would be an interesting topic.

[spartanII]

Well it seems that there are other animals such as dogs and dolphins that can also learn sign language, it isn't just koko. Koko just knows a lot more because he was trained a lot more than usual. I just believe that intelligence is a part of evolution and that even us human have evolved in intelligence over the years, it doesn't mean that us and the chimps are the same, its just that we are a higher more evolved version. what i would we be talking about is why do certain animals such as dolphins and chimps have the capabilities of being self aware and having consciousness, that would be an interesting topic.

It is, and the Bible isn't silent on it either
When it talks about God bringing every "living animal" forth in the Genesis account it makes mention of them, from that we can see they are birds and some mammals. The word it uses for living in the Hebrew is nephesh, or soul... So these animals have souls but they aren't the same as us. In fact, it mentions that in the book of Psalms i believe. The soul of man goes up, the soul of the animal goes down. I guess as a symbol of judgment for actions versus not being responsible for actions (animals)? Either way, the Bible is really interesting once you read things in the Greek context or the Hebrew context. The home page of this site is big into that.
I know certain elephants will walk miles after miles with their heads down towards the sand and wash their bodies off with water after the leader elephant passed away and it makes sense. These animals have feelings and emotions but man is the only one that questions the big things like concepts, or the forms, or alien life, or God...really interesting. I've always wondered if other planets have some sort of creature sitting on the cobblestone runes coming up with the laws of logic and have great thinker like Aristotle. I know this is just dreaming but it'd be cool...

[B. W.]

Evolution, as it's happened over 4.1 billion years doesn't seem like God's character. It doesn't seem all knowing to have a plethora of animals walk the earth for a billion years then have a meteor strike France/Mexico driving 99% of all known life forms to extinction. The same goes for man's transitioning forms (homo erectus, neanderthal etc. etc.)
Also, about the laws of logic... I have yet to get a reply about Koko, the ape that scored 90 on an IQ test and through sign language tells her owners that she's still depressed about her mother passing and is gonna tell her offspring about it. What use is logic to man then if animals are thinking this deep of thoughts?

Who taught KoKo to sign - did Koko teach herself? If so, then worry but if a human being did -- hmmm...

Have gorillas - chimps learned to sign on their own? Animals do and can communicate with each other in their own ways. Dogs have feelings (emotions), so do cats. I raised enough of both to know that they do communicate with each according to their own kind.

My wife and I were hiking in Rocky Mountain National Park four weeks ago heading to Sand Beech Lake, when two Bucks stood upon the trail and would not move. Both raised their heads, lips curled, front hoof pawing ground. We turned around as my wife and I did not want to fight a couple of ornery deers. Yes, not surprising about animals. How does a mother bear know her cub is in pain? Nothing unusual about Koko is there accept some human taught her to sign…

Next, How long was a Day of creation? There are two different times mentioned in Genesis - Days of Creation and on Day FOUR our solar 24 hour cycle roughly began, possible earth either spun faster or slow at that time making days around 22 to 27 hours long. How long is a Day of Creation?

As for a meteor strike - you assume the atmosphere of earth was the same as it is now - in fact it was different and if I remember my science history correctly the text books mention it was more O2 rich than it is now. This would support large creatures, who exhaled what? In Prep for humanity -the 02 had to decrease and soil composites to build up...etc & etc... then a meteor strike makes sense to reduce large dangerous creatures and reshape things for the future. Also God planted a garden somewhere on the earth - what went on outside this garden is anybody's guess... Have you considered these at all?
-
-
-