What is hell like?

[wrain62]

I have a question for anyone to answer.

Using the mind that you have know (because it is not possible to make a choice without a mind), if you did not exist, then what would you rather choose?

1. Not ever existing
2. Existing in hell

Before I answer, I need clarification on what you mean by "not ever existing". Do you mean not ever born, not ever conceived, or something else? I ask, because I believe God knew me before I ever existed.

I mean not ever being recognized by any entity whatsoever, not even yourself or God. Not existing in this universe or any reality or pre-reality. Would you choose this or Hell? If you ever heard the song with the lyrics "I rather feel pain than nothing at all", the choice is similar to that.

[wrain62]

I guess I would choose #1. I would probably choose anything you had up there besides #2. Existing in hell.

May I ask, what the point of this is?

I want to know if it is truly a prevledge to exist, even if it means absolute agony. Or t least what people think.

[RickD]

I guess I would choose #1. I would probably choose anything you had up there besides #2. Existing in hell.

May I ask, what the point of this is?

I want to know if it is truly a prevledge to exist, even if it means absolute agony. Or t least what people think.

Knowing what I know now, I believe it is a privilege, and a blessing that God created me. Now, I can't speak from experience of "absolute agony", so take my opinion for what it's worth. I've been depressed at times, but I wouldn't say "absolute agony". The way I look at life is that any agony that I experience in this life, cannot compare to what God has planned for me in the rest of eternity. This physical life is a tiny, tiny, fraction compared to eternity. That's not to make light of anyone's pain. If you, or someone you know is in absolute agony, then possibly we can help.

[wrain62]

It is an unreasonable question really. Just like asking if God can make a rock too big for him to lift, the scenario simply does not exist and thus is incoherent.
Our existence is a privledge and that is why we ought to thank God. Both for the good and hard times we recieve.

[StMonicaGuideMe]

It is an unreasonable question really. Just like asking if God can make a rock too big for him to lift, the scenario simply does not exist and thus is incoherent.
Our existence is a privledge and that is why we ought to thank God. Both for the good and hard times we recieve.

[B. W.]

It is an unreasonable question really. Just like asking if God can make a rock too big for him to lift, the scenario simply does not exist and thus is incoherent. Our existence is a privledge and that is why we ought to thank God. Both for the good and hard times we recieve.

You have answered your own objections: Our existence is a privledge and that is why we ought to thank God. Both for the good and hard times we recieve...

Even in hell....
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[coldblood]

B.W.

P.S. Coldblood, Your premise and comment ends up second guessing God and ends in a demanding or else statement

.

“Do it my way or I will torture you forever in hell,” would indeed be a demanding or else statement. I do not think God is like that, but I do not think I am second guessing God as much as I am anyone who would interpret him in an equivalency of those terms.

I never said that I understood God, but that I refuse to believe he is malevolent or possesses sinister characteristics. If hell’s design is as simple as God will intentionally torture for eternity anyone who does not accept him, then I cannot find that plan compatible with an all-loving god who does not want anyone to suffer. Call it my lack of understanding if you will, that’s fine.

Also, I might add, if the plan is not that simple then that, too, is fine. It was not my intention to address the myriad of possibilities, but only this one specific, “hypothetical,” outcome; an outcome that I do not expect to exist, by the way. I address it only because some people do appear to think that the plan is either – accept God in this life or face an eternal (fiery, horribly painful) hell. It is regarding those views that I respectfully disagree.

You may refer me to further thought on the matter if you wish, but I must confess a certain bias. I have never found, for example, a philosophy that made experiencing a toothache enjoyable or acceptable, nor do I think I will ever find one. However, I think it is even less likely that I could ever find a reason to accept deliberate eternal torture as a component of love. Torturing someone forever would be as cruel as it gets.

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[coldblood]

jlay

That's the equivalent of thinking, if I advise someone to quit smoking because it could result in a painful death, "Quit smoking or I will hurt you." See how ridiculous this sounds. The consequences do not mean I am imposing pain on the person. Their pain is self-inflicted.

Yes, jlay, if hell is out there somewhere, lurking like a cancer, some inevitable nebulous thing over which God has no control; it doesn’t make any sense to connect hell to God. However, I was not addressing that. I was referring to exactly the opposite. I was saying that if hell were designed by God specifically to torture people who did not accept him, then it would be the equivalence of God saying, Love me or I will hurt you, horribly!

You might notice, too, that I said I didn’t believe (or won’t believe) that this is the case.

I think you said a mouthful. Is it possible that your understanding of God's love, justice, wrath and punishment are flawed?

Of course. And may we assume, by way of contrast, that your understanding of God's love, justice, wrath and punishment are not flawed?
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[B. W.]

B.W.

P.S. Coldblood, Your premise and comment ends up second guessing God and ends in a demanding or else statement

.

“Do it my way or I will torture you forever in hell,” would indeed be a demanding or else statement. I do not think God is like that, but I do not think I am second guessing God as much as I am anyone who would interpret him in an equivalency of those terms.

I never said that I understood God, but that I refuse to believe he is malevolent or possesses sinister characteristics. If hell’s design is as simple as God will intentionally torture for eternity anyone who does not accept him, then I cannot find that plan compatible with an all-loving god who does not want anyone to suffer. Call it my lack of understanding if you will, that’s fine.

Also, I might add, if the plan is not that simple then that, too, is fine. It was not my intention to address the myriad of possibilities, but only this one specific, “hypothetical,” outcome; an outcome that I do not expect to exist, by the way. I address it only because some people do appear to think that the plan is either – accept God in this life or face an eternal (fiery, horribly painful) hell. It is regarding those views that I respectfully disagree.

You may refer me to further thought on the matter if you wish, but I must confess a certain bias. I have never found, for example, a philosophy that made experiencing a toothache enjoyable or acceptable, nor do I think I will ever find one. However, I think it is even less likely that I could ever find a reason to accept deliberate eternal torture as a component of love. Torturing someone forever would be as cruel as it gets..

Well, Coldblood, you are the one that said the following: Our existence is a privilege and that is why we ought to thank God. Both for the good and hard times we receive..

You have the wrong idea about the torments in Hell - God is not torturing anyone there. Therefore your argument is spurious. The bible does not say God tortures nor does it teach it. Human beings say that about God in order to demand Him to behave according to their personal terms, or else…

People, like yourself, who state that they cannot accept God who lives true to His own absolute standards of His own Character and Nature demand of him to submit to their ideology will find themselves banished away from God forever. God’s wrath sends one into that banishment because that is what the person desires – life without God where the flames expose the true nature of a person for what and who they really are: abusers of God’s good nature and character.

God gave us the privilege of life. It is his Gift. God's good character reneges on no gift, calling, or promise. He originally designed us as eternal beings with an eternal responsibility tending to the things belonging to Him. It is an unfair to wrongly accuse God of being an eternal torturer.

God does not torture until one cries uncle and then let you into heaven – that violates the absolute standard of justice God has toward the person and to God himself. Nor will the Lord annihilate you into non-being as that is likewise injustice to God’s own absolute standard of justice toward his gift of life he gave from his ownself. What option (course of action) would a perfectly Just God do to remain true to himself in all ways and toward those who he created as morally reasoning beings? How would he design things for human beings – foreknowing as he does?

For starters, design Human beings mortal with an eternal spiritual component – the real you. Provide a test that denies not freedom to reason (justice is again displayed). Humanity fell into rebellion and eternal sin (do you really understand what sin is, ColdBlood?) Then God provides the way back to restore those that accept his call to return to him (work of the cross) and be cleansed and properly sealed (Holy Spirit) for the eternal to come.

This would also mean that God allows mortal people to reject him as well. This displays justice to the person’s ability to morally reason and voluntarily respond. In this also proves God just to himself and just to all. Those that respond voluntarily to his call (the cross) and changed/sealed by it in the mortal are prepared for the eternal which they were originally designed. This again proves God just to himself and just to all. Without calling out to humanity at all likewise would be unjust for a just God to do.

Those that reject his call, he will reject, why; such person will not behold the Majesty of the Lord in Heavens perfect land of uprightness. If allowed in, would corrupt heaven by continually abusing the nature of God’s Love for their-own selfish insistence.

Isaiah 26:10, “Though the wicked is shown favor, He does not learn righteousness; He deals unjustly in the land of uprightness, And does not perceive the majesty of the LORD.” NASB

The sin in them will remain and heaven corrupted. God in his perfect justice will not allow his Love to be abused and taken advantage of. His love burns in fiery wrath towards those who reject him, and in fact, it is because of His great love, that he will banish them away from his presence forever where each reaps what they have sown. They desire not God, so God grants them what they wanted – life far away from God and being far away from is in eternal darkness, doom, and ruin which uncovers the real eternal them. No violation to the gift of life granted, nor toward ones final decision exampled in this mortal life. God is just to all.

Life is a privilege granted us by an absolutely just God who loved so much that …

John 3:14-21 "…As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

16"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

John 3:36, "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." NASB

It would be unjust not to warn, not to provide a way that saves. God is not unjust; however, we are toward Him and each other. That injustice will not be permitted for if it was, love ceases.

So Coldblood, you can bellyache about Hell all you want, the real issue is now – will you accept God’s pardon for insulting and demanding of him – to be unjust to Himself for your account?
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[coldblood]

B.W.

Well, Coldblood, you are the one that said the following: Our existence is a privilege and that is why we ought to thank God. Both for the good and hard times we receive.

B.W., I don’t think I said that. As far as I can tell it was you who said it in the previous post. It may have been stated somewhere else, I don’t know. Anyway, it isn’t a universal statement. Whoever said that could not possibility know what existence is like for all other people. Some people commit suicide; many others live brave lives that I am not sure I would have the courage to endure.

You have the wrong idea about the torments in Hell - God is not torturing anyone there.

Well, let’s see. My idea is that - God is not torturing anyone there. (In fact, I refuse to believe it.) Your idea is that - God is not torturing anyone there. Yet you say my idea is wrong. Is this just your clever way of admitting that your idea, too, is wrong? I hope not because I do NOT believe your idea is wrong.

Therefore your argument is spurious. The bible does not say God tortures nor does it teach it.

Again, you must be reading from somewhere else. I never made such a claim.

Human beings say that [God tortures] about God in order to demand Him to behave according to their personal terms, or else…

Is that why they say it? I wouldn’t know but I won’t argue with your reasoning for their motives. My only disagreement would be with their conclusion.

People, like yourself, who state that they cannot accept God who lives true to His own absolute standards of His own Character and Nature . . .

Is that your way of describing a god who bullies people into submission with the threat of eternal torture? If it is, then you are right; I do not accept that. If, however, your words have a different meaning - whatever that meaning may be (and only you know) - then it is not my intention to disagree.

If God did not design a hell specifically for the purpose of torturing his failed creations, that is fine. That is the only scenario to which I have objected. It was not my intention to address the myriad of other possibilities, but only that specific one. I addressed it only because some people do appear to think that the plan is an ultimatum to either – accept God in this life or face an eternal (literally fiery, horribly painful, etc.) hell. It is regarding that specific view that I respectfully disagree.


Regarding the remainder of your mini-sermon, and your inaccurate and uncharitable representations (insult, demand, wrongly accuse, bellyache, and the like); as long as you are not saying God has deliberately built eternal pain into the universe for the purpose of punishment, we have no problems. You do raise some interesting questions, which I will comment on, but do not wish to pursue beyond that.

What option (course of action) would a perfectly Just God do to remain true to himself in all ways and toward those who he created as morally reasoning beings?
How would he design things for human beings – foreknowing as he does?

These two involve questioning God’s options. At first knee-jerk I have to think that is the ultimate over-the-top exercise in futility; then I realize that I, too, have done that, albeit indirectly. I have questioned how an all-loving, all-powerful God would be unable to create a universe sans eternal pain. Of course I do not believe that he was unable, just as I do not believe that he designed a torture chamber for his defective creations.

Still, "could" he have been an all-loving god AND torture people forever? If I had the mind of a god I might be able to figure out a way that he could; but, alas, I have only the puny mind of a human. I cannot logically, emotionally, or any other way accept that possibility.

I “have” to believe that God does NOT torture people forever.

[D]o you really understand what sin is, ColdBlood?

I can read the dictionary definitions, even the theological dictionary definitions, yet I am tempted to answer; “In a word, no.” Except, were I to do that, I am afraid that you would pounce on what you perceive as my ignorance and thump me with your theocracy. Volumes have been written on the subject and I have read some, but that is not to say I understand. I once thought I understood; I once knew I understood. However, after much thinking on the subject I came at length to the understanding that I did not know. This probably does not make sense to you, so I will just leave my comment at that. I will say again, though, I do not wish to follow up on a discussion about sin.



And, thank you for your thoughtful reply. -- coldblood

[cheezerrox]

This thread is very interesting, and is actually something I've tried to figure out myself. All of this intellectual and philisophical debating is worthwhile and important, I believe, but as Christians I believe our answer should derive soley from scripture, no?

For the record, just to throw it out there, I used to believe in hell as eternal torment as is commonly taught, but upon further studying of the word and much prayerful considering, I am now very closely moving to the doctrine of eternal destruction.

Now, hell isn't mentioned often in the Bible. But, when it is, it's referred to as the place where those who reject God "perish" (John 3:16), it's referred to as "death" (comparing the death of the soul to physical death, which we'd all agree is final and not an everlasting state) (Matthew 10:28, John 5:24, John 8:51, Romans 6:21, 23, 2 Corinthians 7:10, James 1:15, 1 John 3:14, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 20:6, Revelation 20:14-15, 21:8), it's referred to as "(eternal) destruction" (Matthew 7:13, Romans 9:22, Philippians 3:18-19, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, 2 Peter 3:7, 3:16), the "eternal fire" (Matthew 18:8, 25:41, Jude 1:7), eternal "punishment" (Matthew 25:46, Jude 1:7), and eternal "judgement" (Hebrews 6:1-2), and "shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), although this isn't a complete list.

Now, why would death, perishing, and destruction take on a new meaning when referring to hell? As I said, the second death, the death of the soul, is even directly compared to the physical death in Matthew 10:28. What causes these words to take on new meaning? To say that something is in a constant state of being destroyed/dying makes no sense. And if it were eternal torment, why even use these terms to describe it? They mean much different things.

Next, why do eternal fire, punishment, judgement, and shame and contempt seem to mean that it involves eternal torture? Just because the fire is eternal, doesn't mean that what is thrown into it is. And just because punishment and judgement are eternal, that doesn't mean that it involves eternal torture. Just because a person dies, or something is destroyed, does it make its fate any less permanent? If something is destroyed, it is destroyed forever. The judgement or punishment stands eternally, but that doesn't mean that it's executed eternally.

Then, we have "shame and everlasting contempt." Now, think of this. Take Hitler for example. Arguably the most hated human being in history. He is held in a state of permanent shame and contempt, no? Now, is he still here to RECIEVE all of this shame and everlasting contempt? No, but it's still there.

Now, we have a fun one. Revelation 14:9-11. Specifically 14:11. One thing many don't realize, though, is that this passage has a sister text, which uses the same terminology. Isaiah 34:9-10. Notice the curious similarity in wording. "Brimstone", "smoke ris(ing) forever)," and "(not be/no rest) day and/or night." I think that it's a long shot to say that the resemblence of these two passages is merely coincidence. Now, when you see what Isaiah 34:9-10 is talking about, you see it's referring to the destruction of the kingdom of Edom. This passage gives you the feeling that Edom will burn forever and ever, without end, but if you read the rest of the chapter, you see this is not true. Isaiah 45:5-6 show that the people of Edom are to be totally destroyed, and slaughtered. Also, notice that Isaiah 34:10 plainly says that Edom will burn and "not be quenched night or day." This shows that the phrase "night or day" or "day and night" can't mean an unending amount of time. Especially since it so obviously is related to Revelation 14:9-11, it surely wasn't an accident. I'm sure John was familiar with the scripture and its meaning when he wrote it. The brimstone that destroyed Edom wasn't quenched until it destroyed it completely. Also, Acts 9:24, 1Thessalonians 2:9, 3:10, and Revelation 12:10 all use the term "night and day" to refer to a temporary amount of time. Also, Revelation 19:3 states that the smoke of Babylon's burning will rise forever and ever, but Revelation 18:8 makes it clear that she is to be consumed by fire, meaning totally burned up. Destroyed. Gone.

Now, notice, that Revelation 14:10 states that those who accept the mark of the beast will be tormented in the presence of the holy angels and the lamb, who is none other than Jesus Christ. This presents a problem for those who believe that hell is conscious "eternal separation from God," as it says He most certainly is present. The Bible does teach that they will be separated from Him, since those who don't accept Him will not be able to reside with Him in His kingodm that is heaven. But if that is true, then their torment must not last forever.

I believe this is sufficient evidence to show that the Bible teaches eternal destruction, and not eternal torment.

[zacchaeus]

may this bless you all, I pray this will help and tear veils off of eyes who are spiritually blinded!!!

HELL: What will it be like??? I'm glad you asked...

C.O.R.E. Youth and One Way Ministries

WHAT WILL HELL BE LIKE?
If God is real than Heaven and Hell are real literal places!
Luke 10:15 and in the gospels Jesus describes Hell as being down.
One of our goals is to scare Hell out of you to where you do not want to go there under any circumstances jokingly or not. One reason churches have a problem preaching Hell is because satan doesn’t want us to learn about him or Hell. I feel like we are on his radar. Look at our church funds, family issues, marriages, recent tragedies in our church, and I don’t think he wants us to be talking about him or Hell today. The devil uses cartoons to make Hell seem fun and less real and we actually laugh at it. The problem is Hell is all too real and there is nothing neither fun nor funny about it.

Five Truths about Hell
1) Hell awaits unbelievers – same as Heaven awaits believers. What is present in Heaven is absent in Hell, and what is present in Hell is absent in Heaven. Cs Lewis- Sin is mans saying to God, “Go away and leave me alone”, and Hell is God saying, “You may have your wish”. Mathew 7:13-14 …”wide is the gate to destruction and many will enter, but small is the gate that leads to life and few will find it”. With that being said, Earth is the only Heaven many unbelievers will experience and Earth is the only Hell many believers will experience.
2) Hell features unquenchable fire – or inextinguishable (cannot be put out, destructive). Jesus most common description of Hell is it is a place of fire. Matthew 18:8 “If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.” Mark 9:43 “If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.”
3) Hell features utter darkness- complete absence of light, while Heaven has perpetual light. The sun and moon will serve no purpose. Gods light will shine everlasting light in Heaven. Completely pure and forever. 2 Peter 2:17 “These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them.” Matthew 25:29-30 “For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Darkness presents since of aloneness. There will be fire and pain 24/7 100% forever.
4) Hell features unmanageable pain- Look at Luke 16 Rich man and Lazarus. Luke 16:22-28 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.” Misery loves company and friendship comforts pain, but you will be alone. We cannot even bare the simplest of pains on Earth and how worldly of us to comfort our pain to live a little more peaceful. The world has comforted pain with the technology of medicine. We call this pain management, yet in Hell it is unmanageable pain.
5) Hell punishes eternally- Matthew 25:46 “"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
WHAT HAPPENS TO A NONBELIEVER IF THEY DIE TODAY?
They die and their soul immediately enters hell away from the presence of God. Their disembodied non physical soul goes into a non physical place called Hell. Their body is buried so body and soul are separated until reunited to stand trial. They fail and their name is not in the book of life. They are cast into Hell where they live alone in unquenchable fire, utter darkness, and unmanageable pain for eternity.

Last Thought: God is infinitely Holy, so sinning against God is infinitely offending, and deserves infinite wrath!!!

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/hellfire.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_5JPeRs ... r_embedded

[wrain62]

B.W.

Well, Coldblood, you are the one that said the following: Our existence is a privilege and that is why we ought to thank God. Both for the good and hard times we receive.

B.W., I don’t think I said that. As far as I can tell it was you who said it in the previous post. It may have been stated somewhere else, I don’t know. Anyway, it isn’t a universal statement. Whoever said that could not possibility know what existence is like for all other people. Some people commit suicide; many others live brave lives that I am not sure I would have the courage to endure.

It is an unreasonable question really. Just like asking if God can make a rock too big for him to lift, the scenario simply does not exist and thus is incoherent.
Our existence is a privledge and that is why we ought to thank God. Both for the good and hard times we recieve.

I was the one who wrote that; and I don´t agree with what you wrote. I dont need to know what existence is like for all people to have authority to write what I did. Well, you could say I siphoned truth from people like Job and Annie Johnson Flint . Check out Annie Johnson Flint if you got time.

[inlovewiththe44]

Going along with what cheezerrox said: http://hell-know.net/

If anyone would like to read some of the main points and refute them with biblical evidence, that would be awesome. I'm really searching for answers on this subject. The site basically just goes into more detail about the points that cheeze brought up.

Thanks in advance!

[Philip]

Zacchaeus wrote: "They are cast into Hell where they live alone in unquenchable fire, utter darkness, and unmanageable pain for eternity."

Some of the descriptive terms of hell seem contradictory: "utter darkness" and "unquenchable fire." How can it be totally dark and yet filled with flames? Will not the damned have some sort of physical body that allows them to suffer in the flames but yet not be consumed by them? These are mysteries, but they are SCRIPTURAL.

But whatever the reality of what hell will be like, whether partial metaphors or not, it is going to be a place that is unimaginably horrible. And not only would it seem that one would want to avoid it at all costs, one would also think that, as we are ALL offered a choice to embrace our loving God and His promises of eternal hope, love and beauty - OR HELL - well, it's practically inconceivable that anyone would choose hell. But no one who chooses hell ever wants to admit that what they are choosing really exists.

And, yet, I don't know that I've met anyone who became saved through their fear of hell. Most I've known tell of empty, helpless, hopeless lives and of experiencing learning of God/Jesus and His love for them - that they realized what their lives were like without God, juxtapositioned against all that God offered them in contrast. But I'm sure avoidance of hell, at least initially, may motivate some. It must, else why all the warnings in Scripture?