Two North American presuppositional apologists demolish...

[RickD]

Are you saying that Ham and Lisle hold YEC belief as necessary for salvation?

No, I believe Ham, and Lisle, at least, have changed their position on that. They have said , that if one believes in OEC, he can still be saved.
What I meant, and I admit, I didn't word it properly, was that they believe their YEC interpretation is equal to scripture.

I'm saying anyone that says, like Sye said in the podcast, that the bible says the earth is 6,000 years old, so since the bible says it, I believe it, and that's all I need. That's what I'm saying. You and I both know the bible doesn't give an age of the earth. Sye said it did.

That is a fair criticism. But again, for many, the bible does seem to give an age. It is interpretive. The same thing you are doing when you state, "obvious, ancient," when referring to the age of the earth. I haven't heard Sye say that, so I'm relying on your quote.

jlay, by all means, please listen to the podcasts, and come to your own conclusion. I don't see the bible giving an age of the earth, but I do see the size of the universe, for example, showing it's ancient. When I say age of the earth, I also mean age of the universe, as well sometimes. I t depends on the context.

The evidence of the age of the earth is not a spiritual thing. It is physical evidence in the world around us.

Maybe this is where we disagree. There is nothing you can pick up or look at that says, "made in 2 million BC." it seems your starting point is bathed in reification. Plus, the unbeliever, as you say (and I agree) can not discern spiritual things. There is NO difference to the unbeliever. They are all intellectual, physical issues.

jlay, to at least the atheists on the podcast, spiritual things don't exist. There is no spiritual issue.

They can see the obvious physical evidence of an ancient earth.
Begs the question

Jlay, do you think most scientists who think the earth and universe are old, are in a conspiracy against Christianity? Or, do they just go where the evidence takes them?

[DannyM]

when a YECr says that they believe in a 6,000 year old earth, because "the bible says so", the athiest correctly sees right through that, because it's not logical.

The Bible says no such thing.

No matter how many times Sye says, "how do you know that, Jim", or "how do you know that, Alex", it doesn't make any sense to them, because they are spiritually discerned. And it makes Sye sound like an annoying broken record.

I agree that it sounded annoying and petulant, but it really wasn't. The trouble is Jim and Alex’s thinking is so muddled that they fail to see the point. I'm not sure how you can blame Sye for that. Rick, out of the whole debate, you seem to have latched on to the one little bit about YEC, and sunk your teeth into this. The debate was about presuppositional apologetics; YEC has no bearing on the pressupositional apologetic. Why aren't you admonishing Alex and Jim for obfuscation and diversion, and congratulating Sye for being persistent in following the argument through?

[DannyM]

Many atheists hate God, because all they know of God is self-righteous Christians

You really believe this is why the atheists hate God and the religious? It is a rebellion, Rick, and the atheist will give you any excuse.

Churches with pastors that manipulate people for power and money, and church leaders that rape children and cover it up.

Right, and I guess this is what starts the fire, and it isn’t used to add fuel to the fire…

We need to be a witness to unbelievers to who the real God is. Not the only god they know from their experience. Christians are supposed to have a real love for all people, not a love for feeling sanctimonious, by proving unbelievers wrong. Where us the love in that?

Where am I told to love arrogant, autonomous man? I don’t love atheists, Rick. Do you really love these people? I love whom I love and I love Christ and those in Christ. God doesn’t even love all people, Rick, so how do you think I should fair against such competition?

[jlay]

Jlay, do you think most scientists who think the earth and universe are old, are in a conspiracy against Christianity? Or, do they just go where the evidence takes them?

So that's it, huh. Those are the only two options? That's a bit of a false dilema.

I didn't word it properly, was that they believe their YEC interpretation is equal to scripture.

Source

but I do see the size of the universe, for example, showing it's ancient.

Never heard that before. How does size relate to age? Is jupiter older than the earth because it's larger?

[RickD]

RickD wrote:
when a YECr says that they believe in a 6,000 year old earth, because "the bible says so", the athiest correctly sees right through that, because it's not logical.

The Bible says no such thing

That's my point.

No matter how many times Sye says, "how do you know that, Jim", or "how do you know that, Alex", it doesn't make any sense to them, because they are spiritually discerned. And it makes Sye sound like an annoying broken record.

I agree that it sounded annoying and petulant, but it really wasn't. The trouble is Jim and Alex’s thinking is so muddled that they fail to see the point. I'm not sure how you can blame Sye for that. Rick, out of the whole debate, you seem to have latched on to the one little bit about YEC, and sunk your teeth into this. The debate was about presuppositional apologetics; YEC has no bearing on the pressupositional apologetic. Why aren't you admonishing Alex and Jim for obfuscation and diversion, and congratulating Sye for being persistent in following the argument through

No, Danny. The trouble is that, someone who is spiritually discerned, cannot grasp it. After a few times of asking "how do you know that, Alex", Sye should have realized that Alex couldn't answer. Saying it over and over does nothing to help the person see what he can't see. I'm saying Sye should have gone on to something else. It's like a little kid saying "I know you are, but what am I?", over and over, and over. Danny, out of the whole debate, I noticed that, because I believe it was fruitless, and I pointed it out. Danny, the attitude, I saw, that Sye exhibited , absolutely has bearing on the debate. If you don't speak out of love, and show it, it's fruitless. Danny, Alex and Jim couldn't answer the question, because they are SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED!!!! It seemed to you like diversion, but they actually answered Sye by the only way they know.

[RickD]

RickD wrote:
Many atheists hate God, because all they know of God is self-righteous Christians

You really believe this is why the atheists hate God and the religious? It is a rebellion, Rick, and the atheist will give you any excuse

Not all atheists. They can only go by what they see. If all they know about God, are Greedy, lying, self-righteous, child molesting Christians, then that's how they see God. If God's followers act like that, then God Himself, must be like that in the atheists eyes.
Of course it's a rebellion, Danny. What do you expect? They don't know God. Don't you realize how difficult it is to do good, with the Holy Spirit inside you? Imagine what it's like without God.

Where am I told to love arrogant, autonomous man? I don’t love atheists, Rick. Do you really love these people? I love whom I love and I love Christ and those in Christ. God doesn’t even love all people, Rick, so how do you think I should fair against such competition?

Danny, I urge you to rethink this. This is so wrong in so many ways. Tell me you don't really believe this? Didn't Christ die for us while we were still sinners? Didn't Christ die to atone for the sins of the world? That anyone who believes on Him, shall not perish, but have eternal life? God calls us to love those who hate us. Danny, honestly, I'm in shock that you even posted this.

[DannyM]

Danny, the attitude, I saw, that Sye exhibited , absolutely has bearing on the debate. If you don't speak out of love, and show it, it's fruitless.

I agree that Sye loses his rag sometimes. He is no better or worse than any of us.

Danny, Alex and Jim couldn't answer the question, because they are SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED!!!! It seemed to you like diversion, but they actually answered Sye by the only way they know.

No, they are dishonest in not acknowledging their own inherent presuppositions. The diversions were evident from the long pauses, the excruciating silences, avoiding questions, abrubptly changing topic. I mean, what more do you want? The Bible says they are suppressing the truth.

[DannyM]

Danny, honestly, I'm in shock that you even posted this.

What did I say? I don't love atheists or God doesn't love everyone?

[Echoside]

Danny, honestly, I'm in shock that you even posted this.

What did I say? I don't love atheists or God doesn't love everyone?

Both, actually

[RickD]

Jlay, I'll have to ask you to forgive me. I posted these responses, while I was at work. I was is a rush, and my full thoughts to your posts, were in my head, but I rushed what I posted.

Jlay, do you think most scientists who think the earth and universe are old, are in a conspiracy against Christianity? Or, do they just go where the evidence takes them?


So that's it, huh. Those are the only two options? That's a bit of a false dilema.

What I meant, was there is a thought that I've heard more than a few Christians say. Unbelieving scientists take the evidence they see for the age of the earth, and universe, and make it fit their worldview. While I don't disagree that some probably do that, I tend to think that most scientists, whether believers in Christ, or unbelievers, would base their worldview on where the evidence leads them.

I didn't word it properly, was that they believe their YEC interpretation is equal to scripture.


Source

It's been discussed here on these boards, before. And I've seen and heard in in Old Earth/Young Earth debates, in the past.
I don't keep any records of all the debates I've seen, so It would take far too long, for me to dig it up. You'll just have to take my word for it. Or not.

but I do see the size of the universe, for example, showing it's ancient.


Never heard that before. How does size relate to age? Is jupiter older than the earth because it's larger?

Cmon, jlay. This isn't something new to the YEC/OEC discussion. Distance from the earth to a far away galaxy is measured in light years. The Andromeda Galaxy has been measured at 2.5 million light years from the earth. That means the light we see from the Andromeda Galaxy today, left 2.5 million years ago. And that's just the nearest spiral galaxy to earth.

[RickD]

Danny posted a podcast, and, I'm assuming, wanted opinions. I listened to the podcast, listened to more of their podcasts, and read their blogs. What I saw was a bunch of angry unbelievers. Sinners that Christ died for. People that have been hurt by organized religion.(man-made religion) Hurt by "Christians" who claim to be in Christ, but show no love to those unbelievers who need to know the love of Christ. Alex and Jim et al, have seen all the garbage that man-made religion brings. Greedy pastors who peddle the word of God for profit, and say what itching ears want to hear, to gain control over those whose money they desire.
They see "Christians" who are supposed to love and cherish our children as a blessing from God, that instead molest, torture, and destroy the lives of our precious children. Then not only do they and their leaders cover up these atrocities, but they move the child molesters to a different church, so they can continue their atrocities on other trusting children left in their care. Is it no wonder that these atheists hate God, and Christians? Not once did I hear any of them talk about a Christian that showed them love. How does anyone expect them to accept God, or anything any Christian has to say, when they have no idea of what God's love is?
And then, when I post this:

We need to be a witness to unbelievers to who the real God is. Not the only god they know from their experience. Christians are supposed to have a real love for all people, not a love for feeling sanctimonious, by proving unbelievers wrong. Where us the love in that?

I get this as a response from Danny:

Where am I told to love arrogant, autonomous man? I don’t love atheists, Rick. Do you really love these people? I love whom I love and I love Christ and those in Christ. God doesn’t even love all people, Rick, so how do you think I should fair against such competition?

I'm sorry, but I don't even know how to react to this. Is this the attitude we should take towards those who Christ died to redeem? Don't we remember how lost we were before we accepted Christ?
Danny, I'm sorry. But, what kind of love is this?
Matthew 5:14-16 talks about Christians being the light of the world. “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven."

[Echoside]

I'd also add that Jesus himself made a point that he came to save the sinners, not the righteous.

That's not to say he doesn't ultimately save all, but I'd think things like Mark 2:17 and the parable of the prodigal son point to not only God's love for all, but his desire to reach out to those who are still in the dark.

Despising atheists, unbelievers, etc. and those who would oppose your faith is hardly what Christ would seek to accomplish. If memory serves, several people on this forum were atheists at one point. And I'm sure God didn't love them any less for it. Concerned? Probably. But a negative emotion like hate doesn't do much towards spreading the gospel.

Probably a message already known, but perhaps it's good to hear it out loud every once in a while?

[DannyM]

Danny posted a podcast, and, I'm assuming, wanted opinions. I listened to the podcast, listened to more of their podcasts, and read their blogs. What I saw was a bunch of angry unbelievers. Sinners that Christ died for. People that have been hurt by organized religion.(man-made religion) Hurt by "Christians" who claim to be in Christ, but show no love to those unbelievers who need to know the love of Christ. Alex and Jim et al, have seen all the garbage that man-made religion brings. Greedy pastors who peddle the word of God for profit, and say what itching ears want to hear, to gain control over those whose money they desire.
They see "Christians" who are supposed to love and cherish our children as a blessing from God, that instead molest, torture, and destroy the lives of our precious children. Then not only do they and their leaders cover up these atrocities, but they move the child molesters to a different church, so they can continue their atrocities on other trusting children left in their care. Is it no wonder that these atheists hate God, and Christians? Not once did I hear any of them talk about a Christian that showed them love. How does anyone expect them to accept God, or anything any Christian has to say, when they have no idea of what God's love is?
And then, when I post this:

We need to be a witness to unbelievers to who the real God is. Not the only god they know from their experience. Christians are supposed to have a real love for all people, not a love for feeling sanctimonious, by proving unbelievers wrong. Where us the love in that?

I get this as a response from Danny:

Where am I told to love arrogant, autonomous man? I don’t love atheists, Rick. Do you really love these people? I love whom I love and I love Christ and those in Christ. God doesn’t even love all people, Rick, so how do you think I should fair against such competition?

I'm sorry, but I don't even know how to react to this. Is this the attitude we should take towards those who Christ died to redeem? Don't we remember how lost we were before we accepted Christ?
Danny, I'm sorry. But, what kind of love is this?
Matthew 5:14-16 talks about Christians being the light of the world. “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven."

- since I'm the third person here I'll refrain from responding...

[DannyM]

Danny, honestly, I'm in shock that you even posted this.

What did I say? I don't love atheists or God doesn't love everyone?

Both, actually

I know I said both - the problem being...?

[domokunrox]

Uh, yeah, Danny that comment is far outside the Christian world view. That's even elementary. That has read John 3:16 again and get back to me all over it.

My motivation for apologetics is purely love for those who are lost. There may be many who have fierce resistance to the truth, but its just pure rejection of their creator. Many times we get discouraged and frustrated but we NEVER stop loving them. Its our job to proclaim the truth we know, and point to our lord and savior Jesus Christ as the very thing to bring fulfillment to their lives until he comes again.

I don't see anywhere in the bible that says the gospel and evidence are there to simply posture itself stagnant because God doesn't love anyone.

I suggest rethinking it, i'll keep you in prayer.