Two North American presuppositional apologists demolish...

[DannyM]

Uh, yeah, Danny that comment is far outside the Christian world view. That's even elementary. That has read John 3:16 again and get back to me all over it.

My motivation for apologetics is purely love for those who are lost. There may be many who have fierce resistance to the truth, but its just pure rejection of their creator. Many times we get discouraged and frustrated but we NEVER stop loving them. Its our job to proclaim the truth we know, and point to our lord and savior Jesus Christ as the very thing to bring fulfillment to their lives until he comes again.

I don't see anywhere in the bible that says the gospel and evidence are there to simply posture itself stagnant because God doesn't love anyone.

I suggest rethinking it, i'll keep you in prayer.

Is there a point to this post? What is John 3:16 saying? Prove the claim if you think you can...

[domokunrox]

Danny, you're basically saying that salvation wasn't anything special.

Are you now saying that you're a relativist? That actions from the creator have no explicit or implicit purpose to love us?

The evidence, life, and passion of Jesus Christ is there. I suggest you examine it. I cannot make you feel his love for you. That's your choice. Accept his love or reject it.

[DannyM]

Danny, you're basically saying that salvation wasn't anything special.

Are you now saying that you're a relativist? That actions from the creator have no explicit or implicit purpose to love us?

The evidence, life, and passion of Jesus Christ is there. I suggest you examine it. I cannot make you feel his love for you. That's your choice. Accept his love or reject it.

I'm saying no such thing. And I am not a relativist; what on earth would make you ask such a question? I suggest you do a Bible study.

The above post is full of presumptuous nonsense.

I'm away now 'til tomorrow; if by then anyone still needs proof that God does not love every single human being then I'll provide it. Until then, look at the book we call the Bible...

[Byblos]

I'm away now 'til tomorrow; if by then anyone still needs proof that God does not love every single human being then I'll provide it. Until then, look at the book we call the Bible...

This might be hard to accept but it's certainly evident from the fact that not all are saved. I don't know if I would put it in terms of God not 'loving' everyone as God does desire that everyone be saved and God is the one that does the saving, yet some are not (saved). It is not a conundrum.

[B. W.]

Danny, you're basically saying that salvation wasn't anything special.

Are you now saying that you're a relativist? That actions from the creator have no explicit or implicit purpose to love us?

The evidence, life, and passion of Jesus Christ is there. I suggest you examine it. I cannot make you feel his love for you. That's your choice. Accept his love or reject it.

I'm saying no such thing. And I am not a relativist; what on earth would make you ask such a question? I suggest you do a Bible study.

The above post is full of presumptuous nonsense.

I'm away now 'til tomorrow; if by then anyone still needs proof that God does not love every single human being then I'll provide it. Until then, look at the book we call the Bible...

I think I understand what DannyM is saying and a good debater does use the tactic of SHOCK to make a point, so I am not surprised by Danny's comments.

God does indeed hate those whom reject Christ and will hold them to account after they check out of mortal life and enter the eternal realm. The problem for us is that we do not know who those living around us will end up in that category.

By 1980, I would have been written off as one of those whom God hates but I was awakened by God’s Love and Grace and turned the proverbial corner. I once was and was born as an enemy of God, a child of darkness. I once was lost but summer of 1980 was found and changed adopted as God’s child, transformed anew.

Yes there are currently enemies of God that God hates, but let us not forget that while they are still sinners, Christ died for them offering them the same opportunity to become adopted into God’s eternal family, transformed. That is what God’s love did and does, confronts the sinner with reality that they are enemies, presents a choice to them till the day they pass on to become a new person in Christ a friend in God.

When awaked to the reality of how much one hates God, and then realizes that God loved so much to die a horrible death to awaken us to our need to be forgiven of this hate is incomprehensible till the reality of forgiveness sets in. We were all such enemies of God, God’s love changes us, confronted us, provoked us, offered to us a choice to either remain an enemy of God or become his friend, his adopted child.

Do I hate God’s current enemies? Yes, I do – but I also have the love of God shed abroad in my heart that if necessary, I would die to awaken them as I was awaked and saved.
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[August]

Two things...it is clear that God does not love all people in the same way, as Byblos points out. Some do perish, and Romans 9 makes it pretty clear.

The other thing is that we need to be careful to say: "Hey look, God chooses to treat some people differently, so we should too." We don't have the insight into the future of souls, and the grand plan, that God has, and today's rabid atheist may be tomorrows greatest preacher. It is not hard to dislike some unbelievers, but we are commanded to bring the Gospel to all with patience, to set an example of Christian living, and to spread God's love to all we come into contact with. I think it is pretty hard to make a sincere effort to preach the gospel without compassion for the audience. That doesn't mean we have to love everyone in exactly the same way as we do our Christian brothers and sisters, as that love is different because of the Spirit that binds us together. But it sure as heck doesn't mean that we are to go around lobbing heads off unbelievers like a certain other religion. And I did not think that was what Danny was saying either.

The reason we show patience, love and understanding to unbelievers is not because of who they are, it is because of who God is, and out of reverence and gratitude for what He made us, did for us and commands us.

[jlay]

I would say God loves and hates all the same, at least in one sense. God's love is not some frivolous feeling or sentiment. Nor is it some emotion that rises and falls with the actions of man.

I see the Bible as clearly expressing a universal love of mankind. Expressing love is not a guarantee of receprocation. Christ commands to LOVE your enemies. (Matt 5:44) Why in the world would Christ ask anyone to do something, He Himself refuses to do?
Romans 12:14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.
Romans 12:20 On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."

The problem as I see it, is some seem to conclude that universal love would equal universal salvation. And since we do not have universal salvation, God must not have universal love. That seems like a poor line of reasoning. Or, univeral love precludes God from hating. If I create a movie and offer it free to the world, does that mean everyone will see it. No, they have to go to the theater, even if its free and available to all. God can hate His enemies, even though they also have available the beneifts of His love.

[domokunrox]

Wow, cannot believe some comments here.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... rsion=NASB

Read this and then you guys tell me who love is. This is PERFECT love. This is how you bring people to Christ.

Look at verse 12

12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known

[Silvertusk]

God is love - period.

God does not hate - period.

God mourns those who do not come to Christ - he gives them what they want at all times.

The god you guys are talking about - a god of hate is not one i worship and is closer to Allah than any god I know.

We are called to love all people - and hate their actions. Jesus called us to make disciples of all people and all nations - wants all to be saved - that does not sound like a God who hates.

People who believe God hates are just as bad in my view as the people who hold up the sign saying God hates [homosexuals]. This is incredibly bad theology. Anyone who seriously believes that God hates is no better then the fundamentalists who sprout of such hateful dogma that we see on programs like Louis Theroux or the KKK against black people.

If I did not believe that God loves everyone then I would just give up right now and pack it all in.

Please reconsider the words you are saying - and don't just throw them out there without considering their impact or at least providing the full context in which you are referring to.

Sorry about the harshness of my words - but I read this and it just made me furious to have such a totally false view of the God I love and worship.

Silvertusk.

[Byblos]

God is love - period.

God does not hate - period.

God mourns those who do not come to Christ - he gives them what they want at all times.

The god you guys are talking about - a god of hate is not one i worship and is closer to Allah than any god I know.

We are called to love all people - and hate their actions. Jesus called us to make disciples of all people and all nations - wants all to be saved - that does not sound like a God who hates.

People who believe God hates are just as bad in my view as the people who hold up the sign saying God hates [homosexuals]. This is incredibly bad theology. Anyone who seriously believes that God hates is no better then the fundamentalists who sprout of such hateful dogma that we see on programs like Louis Theroux or the KKK against black people.

If I did not believe that God loves everyone then I would just give up right now and pack it all in.

Please reconsider the words you are saying - and don't just throw them out there without considering their impact or at least providing the full context in which you are referring to.

Sorry about the harshness of my words - but I read this and it just made me furious to have such a totally false view of the God I love and worship.

Silvertusk.

Silver, I don't believe anyone is saying that at all and I believe I speak for Danny as well when I say that. But I'm sure he'll clarify his position soon enough.

[Silvertusk]

That will be great if he does.

[jlay]

God does not hate - period.

Are you sure?

Proverbs 6:16-19 These six things the LORD hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him: 17 A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil, 19 A false witness who speaks lies, and one who sows discord among brethren.

Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,"

Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."

[Byblos]

God does not hate - period.

Are you sure?

Proverbs 6:16-19 These six things the LORD hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him: 17 A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil, 19 A false witness who speaks lies, and one who sows discord among brethren.

Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,"

Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."

Anthropomorphism.

[jlay]

Would you then apply that to love as well?

So God doesn't really 'hate' hands that shed innocent blood?

[Byblos]

Would you then apply that to love as well?

So God doesn't really 'hate' hands that shed innocent blood?

If God is pure love then he cannot be the opposite of who he is and contradict his very nature. Since we cannot know exactly what characteristics God has, at least absent of the beatific vision, then we must describe Him in the only terms we know, human terms. God 'hates' the hands that shed innocent blood is the only way we can understand the severity of such actions. It does not ascribe hate to God.