Two North American presuppositional apologists demolish...

[RickD]

Someone please explain to me how this:

Where am I told to love arrogant, autonomous man? I don’t love atheists, Rick. Do you really love these people? I love whom I love and I love Christ and those in Christ. God doesn’t even love all people, Rick, so how do you think I should fair against such competition

is any different than the hate that the westboro baptist church spews? Someone please justify Danny's statement. Doesn't anyone have love and compassion for the lost? Don't you that were atheists, remember how God delivered you? Someone please tell me what I'm missing.

[B. W.]

Proverbs 6:16, 17, 18, 19c, "These six things the LORD hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him: A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood, A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil, A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren." NKJV

Yes, God indeed hates and the acts of Westboro group whose acts fit the description above...

Psalms 11:5, "The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.'" NKJV

God indeed hates.

This will sound odd but yes, Perfect Love does hate or else it cannot be perfect Love...

Deut12:31c, "You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way; for every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods." NKJV

Deut16:22c, "You shall not set up a sacred pillar, which the LORD your God hates." NKJV

Mal 2:16c, "For the LORD God of Israel says That He hates divorce, For it covers one's garment with violence," Says the LORD of hosts. Therefore take heed to your spirit, That you do not deal treacherously." NKJV

Isa 61:8, "For I, the LORD, love justice; I hate robbery for burnt offering; I will direct their work in truth, And will make with them an everlasting covenant." NKJV

Zec 8:17c, "Let none of you think evil in your heart against your neighbor; And do not love a false oath. For all these are things that I hate,' Says the LORD." NKJV

Without hate, one cannot protect those whom he loves...

From the bible we can see what God hates. How can love be so tolerant as to accept what God hates? Such love that did - would not be love.
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[Silvertusk]

Note - all of what you have said Brian is about the actions of the people - not the people themselves - that is the main point - so yes I will conceed that God does hate actions - but certainly not the people who carrys them out. God does not hate atheists.

[domokunrox]

ou are right on, Silvertusk. I agree that God does hate the actions, but he does not hate his creation. There is a huge difference.

Danny seemed to be all offended because I called into question that he is a relativist now. If he wants to say that God hates man, I stand by that.

Again, there are 3 enemies of Christianity. Relativism, Pluralism, and Naturalism.
God is absolutely true in his nature. To say that God loves and hates his creation is a violation of the law of non-contradiction.God cannot love and hate man at the same time and same sense. He is only capable of perfectly loving us.

This is not saying he cannot hate our actions or hand us the punishment for those actions.

Seriously guys, educate yourself with proper Christian philosophy. We are in a intellectual battlefield out there more then a scientific one. I know its God and Science here, but Philosophy will help you understand God's nature far better.

Saying that God loves me, but hates you is falsehood to the highest degree. That will not bring anyone into a loving relationship with God. God freely has shown he loves ALL mankind, and loving him back is up to all of us to decide on our own

[DannyM]

I think I may have upset some of the Brothers. My intention is to provoke, sure, but not to upset. Then again, Christians by definition need thick skin in a hostile world. Let me repeat: I hate all those who hate my God; I also defy anyone to tell me they truly love every human being. I’d go so far as to say that this is impossible, and anybody who wants to claim they love all men are not being entirely honest with themselves.

Nice sentiment and all that, but let’s get real.

And those who seem so affronted that God might not love all men ought to brace themselves, for their God is not bound by the limits of man’s emotions, and a righteous God can indeed withhold His love from some, and without a stain on His character. I’d like to see an argument presented that states otherwise…

I think I understand what DannyM is saying and a good debater does use the tactic of SHOCK to make a point, so I am not surprised by Danny's comments.

God does indeed hate those whom reject Christ and will hold them to account after they check out of mortal life and enter the eternal realm. The problem for us is that we do not know who those living around us will end up in that category.

By 1980, I would have been written off as one of those whom God hates but I was awakened by God’s Love and Grace and turned the proverbial corner. I once was and was born as an enemy of God, a child of darkness. I once was lost but summer of 1980 was found and changed adopted as God’s child, transformed anew.

Yes there are currently enemies of God that God hates, but let us not forget that while they are still sinners, Christ died for them offering them the same opportunity to become adopted into God’s eternal family, transformed. That is what God’s love did and does, confronts the sinner with reality that they are enemies, presents a choice to them till the day they pass on to become a new person in Christ a friend in God.

When awaked to the reality of how much one hates God, and then realizes that God loved so much to die a horrible death to awaken us to our need to be forgiven of this hate is incomprehensible till the reality of forgiveness sets in. We were all such enemies of God, God’s love changes us, confronted us, provoked us, offered to us a choice to either remain an enemy of God or become his friend, his adopted child.

Do I hate God’s current enemies? Yes, I do – but I also have the love of God shed abroad in my heart that if necessary, I would die to awaken them as I was awaked and saved.

Great post.

Does God have preferences?

Deuteronomy 7:6,7

6 For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.

7 The LORD did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples.

Romans 9:6,7,8

6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.

8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.

Can God hate without diminishing His righteousness?

Romans 9:13,14

13 Just as it is written: Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!

Psalms 5:4,5,6

4You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell.

5 The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong.

6 You destroy those who tell lies; bloodthirsty and deceitful men the LORD abhors.

Is God’s righteousness in question? The psalmist doesn’t seem to think so:

Psalms 5:8

Lead me, O LORD, in your righteousness because of my enemies— make straight your way before me.

Does God love everyone?

Jeremiah 16:3,4,5

3 For this is what the LORD says about the sons and daughters born in this land and about the women who are their mothers and the men who are their fathers:

4 They will die of deadly diseases. They will not be mourned or buried but will be like refuse lying on the ground. They will perish by sword and famine, and their dead bodies will become food for the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth.

5 For this is what the LORD says: Do not enter a house where there is a funeral meal; do not go to mourn or show sympathy, because I have withdrawn my blessing, my love and my pity from this people, declares the LORD.

Our Lord Jesus Christ?

Christ came to save only those whom God loves:

John 6:37,38,39

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

John 17:1,2

1 After Jesus said this, he looked towards heaven and prayed:
Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.

2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.

Christ loved His own who were in the world:

John 13:1

It was just before the Passover Feast. Jesus knew that the time had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he now showed them the full extent of his love.

John 10:26,27

26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

Christ dies for His sheep, but neither died nor prayed for the goats:

John 17:6,7,8,9

6 I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you.

8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.

9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.

I could go on, but this is not about saturating the thread with proof texts; it is about making clear that not everyone is loved by our gracious, righteous God; indeed, some are hated by our God. His righteousness is not in question, and the Bible makes this plain.

When you realise that God, by definition, can not diminish His own righteousness then what once seemed unpalatable suddenly becomes very clear.

But as B.W. and August made clear, we are not to turn our backs on the rebel when it comes to expressing our faith and declaring the truth of Christ, for we do not know whom God has chosen, and we must be ready to expose and correct the foolishness of this world.

God bless

[DannyM]

Someone please explain to me how this:

Where am I told to love arrogant, autonomous man? I don’t love atheists, Rick. Do you really love these people? I love whom I love and I love Christ and those in Christ. God doesn’t even love all people, Rick, so how do you think I should fair against such competition

is any different than the hate that the westboro baptist church spews? Someone please justify Danny's statement. Doesn't anyone have love and compassion for the lost? Don't you that were atheists, remember how God delivered you? Someone please tell me what I'm missing.

Apart from being ignorant about who the "westboro baptist church" are, Rick, I'm seriously at a loss in trying to determine what your problem is. I mean, I'm as glad as you are that we are pitted against one another again, but what have I said that is so hard to take, Bro? Do you know what love is? What you feel for your family, Rick, do you also feel for the atheist, whom you do not even know? What is this 'love' you are throwing about here and lavishing on every human being? I mean, it's an easy thing to say, but am I expected to accept that you 'love' every human being?

[jlay]

God 'hates' the hands that shed innocent blood is the only way we can understand the severity of such actions. It does not ascribe hate to God.

Seems you are using 'anthropomorism to suit your position.

Danny,
It seems you've now adopted a hyper-calvin position.
That's fine, but I would challenge you to conisder the contradictions these creates within the verses you quoted.

"The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong."
Have you done wrong?

contrasted with, "while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Rom. 5:8

Jeremiah 16:3,4,5

3 For this is what the LORD says about the sons and daughters born in this land and about the women who are their mothers and the men who are their fathers:

4 They will die of deadly diseases. They will not be mourned or buried but will be like refuse lying on the ground. They will perish by sword and famine, and their dead bodies will become food for the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth.

5 For this is what the LORD says: Do not enter a house where there is a funeral meal; do not go to mourn or show sympathy, because I have withdrawn my blessing, my love and my pity from this people, declares the LORD.

This quote failes to consider the last verse. What did God withdraw? His blessing, love and pity. If He withdrew them, they were once there. Not to mention that this verse is classic use of hyperbole so common with Jerimiah.

Do you know what love is? What you feel for your family, Rick, do you also feel for the atheist, whom you do not even know? What is this 'love' you are throwing about here and lavishing on every human being?

Feeling? You think love is a feeling? Love is doing the right thing for someone, in spite of your feelings

[DannyM]

Danny seemed to be all offended because I called into question that he is a relativist now. If he wants to say that God hates man, I stand by that.

Do you even know what a relativist is, dom? Sure, I'm saying God does not love all men, and indeed hates some. This makes me a relativist how?

Again, there are 3 enemies of Christianity. Relativism, Pluralism, and Naturalism.
God is absolutely true in his nature. To say that God loves and hates his creation is a violation of the law of non-contradiction.God cannot love and hate man at the same time and same sense. He is only capable of perfectly loving us.

Oh dear... I think you are a little hung up on your law of non-contradiction here. Show me how the law is violated by God not loving all men. Don't just say it; show it. The Bible says you are wrong, dom, so what will you do?

This is not saying he cannot hate our actions or hand us the punishment for those actions.

So God can experience hate? You might be on the right path...

Seriously guys, educate yourself with proper Christian philosophy. We are in a intellectual battlefield out there more then a scientific one. I know its God and Science here, but Philosophy will help you understand God's nature far better.

Saying that God loves me, but hates you is falsehood to the highest degree.

Talk about an Aunt Sally! Who's saying that?

God freely has shown he loves ALL mankind, and loving him back is up to all of us to decide on our own

Really? Scripture?

[DannyM]

J, I don‘t know what hyper-Calvinism is.

"The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong."
Have you done wrong?

Yes.

Jeremiah 16:3,4,5

3 For this is what the LORD says about the sons and daughters born in this land and about the women who are their mothers and the men who are their fathers:

4 They will die of deadly diseases. They will not be mourned or buried but will be like refuse lying on the ground. They will perish by sword and famine, and their dead bodies will become food for the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth.

5 For this is what the LORD says: Do not enter a house where there is a funeral meal; do not go to mourn or show sympathy, because I have withdrawn my blessing, my love and my pity from this people, declares the LORD.

This quote failes to consider the last verse. What did God withdraw? His blessing, love and pity. If He withdrew them, they were once there. Not to mention that this verse is classic use of hyperbole so common with Jerimiah.

J, and? The love is withdrawn, and is not there anymore. How does this affect my point?

Do you know what love is? What you feel for your family, Rick, do you also feel for the atheist, whom you do not even know? What is this 'love' you are throwing about here and lavishing on every human being?

Feeling? You think love is a feeling? Love is doing the right thing for someone, in spite of your feelings

Yes, the love Rick feels for his family. Love is something you experience and feel. Please don’t suggest I’m calling it a whim, J.

But heck, I’ll just ask you, J: do you love everyone who ever walked the face of the earth?

[DannyM]

By 1980, I would have been written off as one of those whom God hates but I was awakened by God’s Love and Grace and turned the proverbial corner. I once was and was born as an enemy of God, a child of darkness. I once was lost but summer of 1980 was found and changed adopted as God’s child, transformed anew.

Yes there are currently enemies of God that God hates, but let us not forget that while they are still sinners, Christ died for them offering them the same opportunity to become adopted into God’s eternal family, transformed. That is what God’s love did and does, confronts the sinner with reality that they are enemies, presents a choice to them till the day they pass on to become a new person in Christ a friend in God.

B.W., these are just my thoughts, and not a position yet, but do you think that God once hated you and now loves you? Or would you be inclined to believe that, actually, God always loved you? I'm wondering how God could have once hated us when He knew we were to be His...

[RickD]

Danny, thank you for taking the time to talk about this. It is a crucial issue, and cannot be brushed aside.

I hate all those who hate my God; I also defy anyone to tell me they truly love every human being. I’d go so far as to say that this is impossible, and anybody who wants to claim they love all men are not being entirely honest with themselves.

Danny, Mark 12:29-31 speaks about what we as Christians do as we are lead by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit." Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD; 30 AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.’ 31 The second is this, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Danny, the bible tells us to love our neighbor as our self. What is a neighbor? A neighbor is anyone we come in contact with. This verse is not telling us that we are to love everyone in the whole world, as you suggest some of us are saying.
I think the issue here, as jlay properly pointed out to you, is that you aren't seeing what "love"is. Love is not a feeling, Danny. If I tell my wife 25 times a day, "I love you", but then berate her, insult her, or physically harm her, am I loving her? That gets back to what you were asking about if we are supposed to love everyone in the world. Love is an action, not a feeling. We can only love our neighbors(those we come in contact with), because love is shown, not felt. We can't love everyone in the world, because we don't have contact with everyone in the world.

Apart from being ignorant about who the "westboro baptist church" are, Rick, I'm seriously at a loss in trying to determine what your problem is. I mean, I'm as glad as you are that we are pitted against one another again, but what have I said that is so hard to take, Bro? Do you know what love is? What you feel for your family, Rick, do you also feel for the atheist, whom you do not even know? What is this 'love' you are throwing about here and lavishing on every human being? I mean, it's an easy thing to say, but am I expected to accept that you 'love' every human being?

Danny, this isn't about you and I disagreeing about things again. It's much more important than you or I. Danny, the love that we are to show unbelievers is the way we treat them, not the way I feel about them. Although, the compassion I may feel for them, certainly should lead me to love them with my actions. Danny, I never said I feel for the atheist I don't even know. I specifically mentioned Jim, Alex, and others on the podcast, who I have come in contact with, and I claim to at least partially know, by what I hear them say. As I posted before, I don't claim to love every human being. I don't even claim to love my neighbor in all situations, because I make mistakes. But, we are called to love those we come in contact with.

I have to go out of town, so I'll address more later.

[Byblos]

We'd all benefit from reviewing God's attributes again, particularly His immutability and impassibility.

[DannyM]

Rick, thank you, Brother. I'm out tonight too so will reply tomorrow. It seems I could be on Calivinist turf (I really don't know, but rather try to piece together the Scriptures as best I can, and I'm still a relative puppy!), so, knowing how Calvinism is almost universally loathed, I'm bracing myself! If I am in the camp of Calvinism, then so be it. But I do believe I have an answer for all those passages you have given. In the meantime, be safe, Brother, and I'll talk to you tomorrow.

[DannyM]

We'd all benefit from reviewing God's attributes again, particularly His immutability.

John, one of the great things about debate among Christians on this board is that we are near to a man all open to correction. That being the case, I am fully open to Brotherly/Sisterly correction.

[jlay]

J, and? The love is withdrawn, and is not there anymore. How does this affect my point?

Obviously, I think it affects it greatly. God foreknowing all, still loved. The use of hyperbole, demonstrates it was those people's response which dictated the outcome. Love was provided, yet rejected. What you are saying is WHOLLY different. You are saying that is isn't and wasn't available. Otherwise your use of this scripture fails to support your position.

Yes.

Then I dare you to apply this condition to your life. If you've done wrong, you are hated by God.

Yes, the love Rick feels for his family. Love is something you experience and feel. Please don’t suggest I’m calling it a whim, J.

But heck, I’ll just ask you, J: do you love everyone who ever walked the face of the earth?

Yes, and No. And I am not God. Nor do I have any delusions that my inability or lack has any reflection on God and His nature. I, like many, have a love for mankind. It is universal. I value and love human life. However, there is love that is much deeper and experiential, say with my daughter. Because of the relationship, she experiences a greater love. I don't have that same love for Christians I've never met, nor even some I do know. So your analogy is flawed. I would challenge that you do not love all Christians the same either, but still a love you have for them all. I trust that in eternity, as the Bible promises, I will be able to experience a complete love that is not warped and diluted by the flesh.
There is NO question that Christ commanded to love one's enemies. This would totally require God to contradict His nature, if your position is true.

We'd all benefit from reviewing God's attributes again, particularly His immutability and impassibility.

Agreed. If God's love is, then it is always. It doesn't ebb and flow. Nor does His hatred of sin, HIs justice, etc. Whether one is experiencing God's love or wrath is all dependent on where that person chooses to stand.