Two North American presuppositional apologists demolish...

[B. W.]

By 1980, I would have been written off as one of those whom God hates but I was awakened by God’s Love and Grace and turned the proverbial corner. I once was and was born as an enemy of God, a child of darkness. I once was lost but summer of 1980 was found and changed adopted as God’s child, transformed anew.

Yes there are currently enemies of God that God hates, but let us not forget that while they are still sinners, Christ died for them offering them the same opportunity to become adopted into God’s eternal family, transformed. That is what God’s love did and does, confronts the sinner with reality that they are enemies, presents a choice to them till the day they pass on to become a new person in Christ a friend in God.

B.W., these are just my thoughts, and not a position yet, but do you think that God once hated you and now loves you? Or would you be inclined to believe that, actually, God always loved you? I'm wondering how God could have once hated us when He knew we were to be His...

I would say yes, he hated me, his wrath was hot upon me for a reason, and his wrath is upon every human being as it says so throughout the bible...

Col 1:21c, "And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled… " NKJV

God’s love is displayed toward all humanity by being slow to anger, seeking to reconcile, making the rain fall on the just and unjust, letting us live out our own lives, while confronting us with our greatest need to become Born Again into his Kingdom…

Nahum 1:2, 3c, "God is jealous, and the LORD avenges; The LORD avenges and is furious. The LORD will take vengeance on His adversaries, And He reserves wrath for His enemies; 3 The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, And will not at all acquit the wicked. The LORD has His way In the whirlwind and in the storm, And the clouds are the dust of His feet." NKJV

We were all enemies of God and God does hate his enemies, but he seeks calling out surrender to them. If they but will do so his awesome grace will reconcile and transform – those that will not, Love still hates… it has too, or perfect love will continue to be manipulated, gamed, exploited, for one’s own selfish purposes for all eternity.

Romans 5:10, 11c, "For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation." NKJV

The real question, is why is humanity classed as enemies of God? I once was his enemy, and he hated me with a perfect hatred of Love rejected/spurned. God always was good to me, and at that time, I hated him without real cause. Looking back, I know that I was classed as God’s enemy. I realize that His wrath was hot upon me. The Lord did not leave any stone unturned and his love shown me my real self – my sin nature – exposed. That was the reason for his wrath and God’s love is slow to anger. That slowness is mercy, it bought time for me to come to my senses and surrender on God’s terms of Grace and become reconciled.

Romans 5:9 "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him..." NKJV

God’s perfect loves does not negate the fact that he hates his enemies with a just hatred. A just hatred permits a call of surrender toward ones enemies, or such hatred cannot be perfectly just. To be absolutely perfectly just means to be empirically without doubt, just to all.

If the enemy surrenders not, the just warning had been given, and therefore the full fury of perfect love’s wrath is justly executed as all doubt has been eliminated.

In my case, I heard the call of surrendered, mocked it for a time, then realized that his wrath justly hung over me as one whom he hated. I surrendered without conditions as I was brought to see the true me and needed a change I could not do on my own. In exchange, I found Grace and a perfect love that cast away all fear.

Jesus endured the wrath of sinners within the 24 hours before the cross. He was mocked, spat upon, put on trial, demanded to confess to crimes he never committed, beaten, whipped, a mocking crown of thorny spikes driven into his skull, forced to carry a splintery beam to die upon. All these things, humanity still do in many allegorical ways and still treat Christ. Yet, he willingly, lain upon the beam, nails of hate towards God driven deep within his hand and feet.

God slow to anger, doing good, causing the rain fall on just and unjust alike, provides food and clothing, taking the blame of man for all the woe. Yet, the Godward side of Christ, endured sinners taunts, trials, demands, whippings, beatings, their nails of hate toward God, that by his death exposes, even though we were not there, that same hate towards God. That is Perfect Love, dying in our place… we should have hung on the cross, not he…

That is why I said in my prior post, that…

…When awaked to the reality of how much one hates God, and then realizes that God loved so much to die a horrible death to awaken us to our need to be forgiven of this hate is incomprehensible till the reality of forgiveness sets in.

We were all such enemies of God, God’s love changes us, confronts us, provokes us, offered to us a choice to either remain an enemy of God or become his friend, his adopted child.

Do I hate God’s current enemies? Yes, I do – but I also have the love of God shed abroad in my heart that if necessary, I would die to awaken them as I was awaked and saved.

In closing, You have heard this that, God so loved the world that He sent His Son into the world that whosoever believes in him will be saved as John chapter three records, does it mean he loved his enemies? Yes! Did he do good to his enemies? Yes! Does he offer reconciliation of salvation to his enemies? Yes! Therefore, those that reject his call of surrender will be justly dealt with by the fury of perfect love’s wrath justly sent forth upon his enemies whom he hates... (Remember that John 3:15, 16, 17c is followed by…)

John 3:18, 19, 20, 21, 36c "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God…… ….36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." " NKJV

-
-
-

[RickD]

Well Danny, Ive been doing some searching on how to reconcile verses that jlay posted:

Proverbs 6:16-19 These six things the LORD hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him: 17 A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil, 19 A false witness who speaks lies, and one who sows discord among brethren.

Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,"

Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."

And the many other verses that seem to contradict what we read about "God is love". I think Byblos hit the nail on the head twice, when he said:

If God is pure love then he cannot be the opposite of who he is and contradict his very nature. Since we cannot know exactly what characteristics God has, at least absent of the beatific vision, then we must describe Him in the only terms we know, human terms. God 'hates' the hands that shed innocent blood is the only way we can understand the severity of such actions. It does not ascribe hate to God.

anthromorphism, and anthropopathism
And Byblos also posted:

We'd all benefit from reviewing God's attributes again, particularly His immutability and impassibility.

Once we understand these attributes of God, then we realize that there are emotional words ascribed to God, like hate, abhor, etc. These words that describe human emotions are ascribed to God, so we can have some idea about God. It's like God is talking down to us in human terms, so that we can partially understand Him. If He didn't relate Himself to us in human terms, we wouldn't be able to understand Him.
If we understand this, then it's clear that God isn't emotional, like we know in human terms. God's immutability shows that He doesn't get emotional like we do. I believe He's more like a just judge sitting at his bench, calmly pronouncing a judgment on one who is guilty of a crime. Not as a god who has a "temper tantrum" when He sees us sinning against Him.
That's my take on it, anyways. I believe that can help reconcile those apparent contradictions in the bible like: where God so loved the world, and God hates the wicked.
Now, do we really have any biblical justification for this:

Where am I told to love arrogant, autonomous man? I don’t love atheists, Rick. Do you really love these people? I love whom I love and I love Christ and those in Christ. God doesn’t even love all people, Rick, so how do you think I should fair against such competition?

in light of this:
Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
and this:
Galatians 5:14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
and this:
Luke 6:27-28 “But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
and this:
Matthew 5:46-47 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
and this:
Matthew 5:44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you
and this:
1 Timothy 1:15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.
and this:
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His [e]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

[B. W.]

Added too My Post Just Above's Rick's...

I would like to add further to my post that God does love those he also hates, enough love to send forth Jesus to die for them: that through his death, burial, and resurrection, which declares forth His call to the very enemies of God, to all whom the Lord hates to surrender, he paid the debt. You can trust a God like that to surrender too. Who would come as a man and die in our place. That is the Love of God, even toward those whom he hates.

At one time, not too many years ago, this was clearly understood that God loved his enemies and his enemies he does hate. Nowadays, I am not so sure this is understood. It appears that Eastern religions and Buddhist concepts of love have infected the modern Church leadership, filtering down into the people. I have noticed that it is the Buddhist concept more than most other eastern religious concepts of love has crept into the Church world these days. I sum it up simply as – a benevolent tolerant apathy taught as perfect agape. No one is intolerably evil or good, and thru eastern karma we’ll all just eventfully gel with neither anything nor something…

People rarely think of themselves as enemies of God anymore, they just have problems caused by someone else, they are victims of tragedy, nothing a little bit of benevolent tolerant apathy can’t fix. Sigh, look to the sky with longing love, empty your mind of all thought, sigh, ahh such love! Problem, perfect Love conquers all but in the process of conquering not all will be saved by love, many will choose remain enemies and remain hated by God. God’s Perfect love allows this voluntary choice to reject the call of surrender for it to be truly just and it has too. If it did not, then such love is not perfectly just in all its ways.

When modern church authorities say, God loves sinners; such sinners are seldom thought of, or taught, as enemies God hates deserving wrath but instead are viewed more as tragic noble figures in a dime novel worthy to be saved. You can hear such messages nowadays such as: God’s love just saves everybody. God the Father and Jesus wouldn’t dare to offend a sensitive seeker. All can just rejoice as no one can stand against God’s loving love. Have you, the reader heard these things?

At one time, it was taught that we are enemies of God whom God hates and this exposed us not as tragic nobles but rather abusers of God’s Love for our own gain. We fell on the floor and cried out, God save me, have mercy on me a sinner, not as it appears to be developing in Laodicea nowadays – God loves me because I am so worthy to be saved by him because he weally wuv’s little ol’me, sniff...

I can’t speak for Danny, but I think that is what he is addressing here is the false concept about God’s love infecting the modern church these days I just mentioned so he shocked ya. In many quarters of the modern Church world, it is no longer viewed or even taught clearly about being enemies of God, or what an enemy is, or having people feel their need to be reconciled to God. I have heard this message from pulpits and on TV and in book and the message is neither hot, nor cold. Just like a good Buddhist.

However, if one is to feel God’s wrath upon them and why they are enemies whom God hates, perfect agape then can work in them, reconciliation, a casting away of fear. It is this casting away of fear that perfect love does because it causes a life altering surrender to the God who loves enough to prove He is worth reconciling with. All that Jesus endured during the hours before the cross, while hanging upon the cross, after the cross, and then raised from the dead proves him trustworthy to surrender too. Such is the real love of God to his enemies: surrender rebel to the God who proved he really loves, or not - behold he stands at your heart's door and knocks...

For those that reject loves grand overture of the cross (the unsaved), God remains slow to anger, providing for them, doing good for them, letting them live their own lives and make their own decisions, continues calling out to them to surrender, willing to take no account of their insolence for a time bit longer, and then still calls out to them despite foreknowing the final answer of their own warped heart, all happens before Love's fury is unleashed exposing them for what and whom they are after they die and it is too late.

God’s love takes the time to awaken a choice before us. Choose wisely…
-
-
-

[DannyM]

Before I go and address the biblical passages put forward regarding me and how I should behave, are we all agreed that God can and does experience hate? Just want to make sure this is settled before we move on.

*edit*: My God is a personal God, not a distant God. I'm not defending some attribute of the hands-off God others might be alluding to.

[DannyM]

By 1980, I would have been written off as one of those whom God hates but I was awakened by God’s Love and Grace and turned the proverbial corner. I once was and was born as an enemy of God, a child of darkness. I once was lost but summer of 1980 was found and changed adopted as God’s child, transformed anew.

Yes there are currently enemies of God that God hates, but let us not forget that while they are still sinners, Christ died for them offering them the same opportunity to become adopted into God’s eternal family, transformed. That is what God’s love did and does, confronts the sinner with reality that they are enemies, presents a choice to them till the day they pass on to become a new person in Christ a friend in God.

B.W., these are just my thoughts, and not a position yet, but do you think that God once hated you and now loves you? Or would you be inclined to believe that, actually, God always loved you? I'm wondering how God could have once hated us when He knew we were to be His...

I would say yes, he hated me, his wrath was hot upon me for a reason, and his wrath is upon every human being as it says so throughout the bible...

Col 1:21c, "And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled… " NKJV

God’s love is displayed toward all humanity by being slow to anger, seeking to reconcile, making the rain fall on the just and unjust, letting us live out our own lives, while confronting us with our greatest need to become Born Again into his Kingdom…

Nahum 1:2, 3c, "God is jealous, and the LORD avenges; The LORD avenges and is furious. The LORD will take vengeance on His adversaries, And He reserves wrath for His enemies; 3 The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, And will not at all acquit the wicked. The LORD has His way In the whirlwind and in the storm, And the clouds are the dust of His feet." NKJV

We were all enemies of God and God does hate his enemies, but he seeks calling out surrender to them. If they but will do so his awesome grace will reconcile and transform – those that will not, Love still hates… it has too, or perfect love will continue to be manipulated, gamed, exploited, for one’s own selfish purposes for all eternity.

Romans 5:10, 11c, "For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation." NKJV

The real question, is why is humanity classed as enemies of God? I once was his enemy, and he hated me with a perfect hatred of Love rejected/spurned. God always was good to me, and at that time, I hated him without real cause. Looking back, I know that I was classed as God’s enemy. I realize that His wrath was hot upon me. The Lord did not leave any stone unturned and his love shown me my real self – my sin nature – exposed. That was the reason for his wrath and God’s love is slow to anger. That slowness is mercy, it bought time for me to come to my senses and surrender on God’s terms of Grace and become reconciled.

Romans 5:9 "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him..." NKJV

God’s perfect loves does not negate the fact that he hates his enemies with a just hatred. A just hatred permits a call of surrender toward ones enemies, or such hatred cannot be perfectly just. To be absolutely perfectly just means to be empirically without doubt, just to all.

If the enemy surrenders not, the just warning had been given, and therefore the full fury of perfect love’s wrath is justly executed as all doubt has been eliminated.

In my case, I heard the call of surrendered, mocked it for a time, then realized that his wrath justly hung over me as one whom he hated. I surrendered without conditions as I was brought to see the true me and needed a change I could not do on my own. In exchange, I found Grace and a perfect love that cast away all fear.

Jesus endured the wrath of sinners within the 24 hours before the cross. He was mocked, spat upon, put on trial, demanded to confess to crimes he never committed, beaten, whipped, a mocking crown of thorny spikes driven into his skull, forced to carry a splintery beam to die upon. All these things, humanity still do in many allegorical ways and still treat Christ. Yet, he willingly, lain upon the beam, nails of hate towards God driven deep within his hand and feet.

God slow to anger, doing good, causing the rain fall on just and unjust alike, provides food and clothing, taking the blame of man for all the woe. Yet, the Godward side of Christ, endured sinners taunts, trials, demands, whippings, beatings, their nails of hate toward God, that by his death exposes, even though we were not there, that same hate towards God. That is Perfect Love, dying in our place… we should have hung on the cross, not he…

That is why I said in my prior post, that…

…When awaked to the reality of how much one hates God, and then realizes that God loved so much to die a horrible death to awaken us to our need to be forgiven of this hate is incomprehensible till the reality of forgiveness sets in.

We were all such enemies of God, God’s love changes us, confronts us, provokes us, offered to us a choice to either remain an enemy of God or become his friend, his adopted child.

Do I hate God’s current enemies? Yes, I do – but I also have the love of God shed abroad in my heart that if necessary, I would die to awaken them as I was awaked and saved.

In closing, You have heard this that, God so loved the world that He sent His Son into the world that whosoever believes in him will be saved as John chapter three records, does it mean he loved his enemies? Yes! Did he do good to his enemies? Yes! Does he offer reconciliation of salvation to his enemies? Yes! Therefore, those that reject his call of surrender will be justly dealt with by the fury of perfect love’s wrath justly sent forth upon his enemies whom he hates... (Remember that John 3:15, 16, 17c is followed by…)

John 3:18, 19, 20, 21, 36c "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God…… ….36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." " NKJV

-
-
-

Thanks, B.W., I'm pondering your words, Bro

[RickD]

Before I go and address the biblical passages put forward regarding me and how I should behave, are we all agreed that God can and does experience hate? Just want to make sure this is settled before we move on.

Danny, from what I posted in my previous post, I can't tell you I agree with that. Attributing hate as we know hate, to God, is "anthropopathism". Even if hate in a different way than we understand hate, can be attributed to the unchanging, unemotional God,(I'm not saying hate can be attributed to God, but only to ask this)where are we told to hate unbelievers?

[DannyM]

Before I go and address the biblical passages put forward regarding me and how I should behave, are we all agreed that God can and does experience hate? Just want to make sure this is settled before we move on.

Danny, from what I posted in my previous post, I can't tell you I agree with that. Attributing hate as we know hate, to God, is "anthropopathism". Even if hate in a different way than we understand hate, can be attributed to the unchanging, unemotional God,(I'm not saying hate can be attributed to God, but only to ask this)where are we told to hate unbelievers?

We are not told to hate unbelievers; nor are we told to love unbelievers, or *all* men. Who ever said God was unemotional, Rick? And who ever said an unchanging God can not experience hate? Who is this god?

Is this the crux of the objection to God hating?

[Byblos]

Before I go and address the biblical passages put forward regarding me and how I should behave, are we all agreed that God can and does experience hate? Just want to make sure this is settled before we move on.

*edit*: My God is a personal God, not a distant God. I'm not defending some attribute of the hands-off God others might be alluding to.

Danny, we have to be very, very careful when talking about God having emotions because it is one of the arguments atheists put forth to counter God's omnipotence and omniscience. God is immutable, changeless. Emotions like hate, abhorrence, even compassion and love in human terms that is, imply a state of change, the element of surprise, a before and an after state, etc, etc. So I would say no, God most certainly does not 'experience' hate or anything else for that matter, for to experience is to learn anew, to gain that which you did not have before.

[DannyM]

Before I go and address the biblical passages put forward regarding me and how I should behave, are we all agreed that God can and does experience hate? Just want to make sure this is settled before we move on.

*edit*: My God is a personal God, not a distant God. I'm not defending some attribute of the hands-off God others might be alluding to.

Danny, we have to be very, very careful when talking about God having emotions because it is one of the arguments atheists put forth to counter God's omnipotence and omniscience. God is immutable, changeless. Emotions like hate, abhorrence, even compassion and love in human terms that is, imply a state of change, the element of surprise, a before and an after state, etc, etc. So I would say no, God most certainly does not 'experience' hate or anything else for that matter, for to experience is to learn anew, to gain that which you did not have before.

John, I agree that God does not experience hate in human terms. My hate is a sinner's hate; it is unrighteous, it is crass, and it is unworthy of God's name. God's hate is not an experience in the sense that it is a new experience; but God does have have a hate for some. This is nothing 'new' to God, and His omnipotence and omniscience remain untroubled. Unless the passages I've given can be explained in some other way, then I'm not sure how else to view this.

[RickD]

Before I go and address the biblical passages put forward regarding me and how I should behave, are we all agreed that God can and does experience hate? Just want to make sure this is settled before we move on.

Danny, from what I posted in my previous post, I can't tell you I agree with that. Attributing hate as we know hate, to God, is "anthropopathism". Even if hate in a different way than we understand hate, can be attributed to the unchanging, unemotional God,(I'm not saying hate can be attributed to God, but only to ask this)where are we told to hate unbelievers?

We are not told to hate unbelievers; nor are we told to love unbelievers, or *all* men. Who ever said God was unemotional, Rick? And who ever said an unchanging God can not experience hate? Who is this god?

Is this the crux of the objection to God hating?

Danny, we are most certainly told to love unbelievers. "Love thy neighbor as thyself", tells us that we are to show love to anyone we come in contact with. This "loving thy neighbor" is summed up beautifully in the story of the good samaritan.
Luke 10:25-37
On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.


One must realize the relationship between Jews and Samaritans, at that time, to fully understand the parable. Jews were "above" associating with Samaritans. Kinda like you're saying we should be "above" showing love to unbelievers.

And also, the story of Jesus and the woman at the well, in John 4:4-42:

4 And He had to pass through Samaria. 5 So He *came to a city of Samaria called Sychar, near the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph; 6 and Jacob’s well was there. So Jesus, being wearied from His journey, was sitting thus by the well. It was about [a]the sixth hour.
The Woman of Samaria
7 There *came a woman of Samaria to draw water. Jesus *said to her, “Give Me a drink.” 8 For His disciples had gone away into the city to buy food. 9 Therefore the Samaritan woman *said to Him, “How is it that You, being a Jew, ask me for a drink since I am a Samaritan woman?” (For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.) 10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.” 11 She *said to Him, “Sir, You have nothing to draw with and the well is deep; where then do You get that living water? 12 You are not greater than our father Jacob, are You, who gave us the well, and drank of it himself and his sons and his cattle?” 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”

15 The woman *said to Him, “[c]Sir, give me this water, so I will not be thirsty nor come all the way here to draw.” 16 He *said to her, “Go, call your husband and come here.” 17 The woman answered and said, “I have no husband.” Jesus *said to her, “You have correctly said, ‘I have no husband’; 18 for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; this you have said truly.” 19 The woman *said to Him, “[d]Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped in this mountain, and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.” 21 Jesus *said to her, “Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 24 God is [e]spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” 25 The woman *said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us.” 26 Jesus *said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”

27 At this point His disciples came, and they were amazed that He had been speaking with a woman, yet no one said, “What do You seek?” or, “Why do You speak with her?” 28 So the woman left her waterpot, and went into the city and *said to the men, 29 “Come, see a man who told me all the things that I have done; this is not [f]the Christ, is it?” 30 They went out of the city, and were coming to Him.

31 Meanwhile the disciples were urging Him, saying, “Rabbi, eat.” 32 But He said to them, “I have food to eat that you do not know about.” 33 So the disciples were saying to one another, “No one brought Him anything to eat, did he?” 34 Jesus *said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to accomplish His work. 35 Do you not say, ‘There are yet four months, and then comes the harvest’? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look on the fields, that they are white for harvest. 36 Already he who reaps is receiving wages and is gathering fruit for life eternal; so that he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together. 37 For in this case the saying is true, ‘One sows and another reaps.’ 38 I sent you to reap that for which you have not labored; others have labored and you have entered into their labor.”
The Samaritans
39 From that city many of the Samaritans believed in Him because of the word of the woman who testified, “He told me all the things that I have done.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to Jesus, they were asking Him to stay with them; and He stayed there two days. 41 Many more believed because of His word; 42 and they were saying to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world.”

[RickD]

Before I go and address the biblical passages put forward regarding me and how I should behave, are we all agreed that God can and does experience hate? Just want to make sure this is settled before we move on.

*edit*: My God is a personal God, not a distant God. I'm not defending some attribute of the hands-off God others might be alluding to.

Danny, If what I posted, came across as saying that I'm telling you how you should behave, that's not what I'm trying to say. I'm sorry if I made it sound that way. I'm trying to say that as those who are children of God, the evidence of the fruit of the spirit should become more evident in our lives, as God conforms us to the image of Christ, by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23

This fruit is manifested in our lives(by the power of the HS), to all we come in contact with.

[DannyM]

Danny, we are most certainly told to love unbelievers. "Love thy neighbor as thyself", tells us that we are to show love to anyone we come in contact with. This "loving thy neighbor" is summed up beautifully in the story of the good samaritan.

Luke 10:25-37

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving himhalf dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.

Rick, I believe you’ve pointed to the requirement upon the Christian to help those in need. I endorse this completely. This is true across all divides, and is not an instruction to love unbelievers. Personally I would never walk past a man in need, whether he be atheist, Muslim, Christian or anyone else for that matter. My hate for those who hate God does not extend to a lack of mercy or desire to help somebody in trouble or in need, whoever they may be. So I think you are confusing this hatred with a loss of compassion.

[RickD]

Danny, from the oxford dictionaries:


neighbor(neigh·bor)
Syllabification:

Pronunciation:/ˈnābər/
(British neighbour)
noun

a person living near or next door to the speaker or person referred to:our garden was the envy of the neighbors
a person or place in relation to others near or next to it:I chatted with my neighbor on the flight to New Yorkmatching our investment levels with those of our North American neighbors
any person in need of one’s help or kindness (after biblical use):love thy neighbor as thyself

Danny, when we say neighbor, we are talking about the definition I underlined above: " any person in need of one’s help or kindness (after biblical use):love thy neighbor as thyself" is the correct definition for our context. You are talking about help and kindness in a material or physical sense when you said this:

Rick, I believe you’ve pointed to the requirement upon the Christian to help those in need.

I'm also talking about help and need,or your lack thereof, when I criticized what you wrote here:

The only difference, is in this instance with Jim and Alex, is that I'm talking about help and kindness in a spiritual sense (help to see they need Christ) as well as the "good samaritan" type of help and kindness. I'm not sure how you can make the distinction between showing help and kindness, only in the sense of the good samaritan, and not showing help and kindness, when it comes to speaking with an atheist. Does scripture make the distinction?

Danny, in this verse, do you believe God is saying that He hated Esau, in this sense:"feel intense or passionate dislike for (someone)"?

Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." Romans 9:13

Or, does hated mean: "loved less than, or to a different degree"?

Again, Danny, are you seeing this:

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23

And, are you seeing that what you wrote here:

Where am I told to love arrogant, autonomous man? I don’t love atheists, Rick. Do you really love these people? I love whom I love and I love Christ and those in Christ. God doesn’t even love all people, Rick, so how do you think I should fair against such competition?

doesn't line up with Galatians 5:22-23? How are you missing this?

[RickD]

Danny wrote:

John, I agree that God does not experience hate in human terms. My hate is a sinner's hate; it is unrighteous, it is crass, and it is unworthy of God's name. God's hate is not an experience in the sense that it is a new experience; but God does have have a hate for some. This is nothing 'new' to God, and His omnipotence and omniscience remain untroubled. Unless the passages I've given can be explained in some other way, then I'm not sure how else to view this.

Danny, I think the passages can be explained in another way. I'll see if I can properly express what I mean.

God's hate is not an experience in the sense that it is a new experience; but God does have have a hate for some.

Does God really have a "hate'' for some? Or does God love some to a different degree than others? We as Christians, will know the fullness of God's love, in eternity with Him. Those who, by ultimately rejecting God, spend eternity apart from God's love, don't experience the fullness of God's love, and are therefore, loved less. Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." Romans 9:13

[domokunrox]

I don't think most here know this expression of "tough love". It applies very well here. Typically I dislike being told to quote verses or being told "prove it" for what is fundamentally Christian.

Danny, it is a severe problem to use a "shock" comment on what is essentially no passion. Again, these comments will not bring anyone to Christ. Not because its wrong, but because even the layman or non-theist can quote clear contradictions. This kind of comments again will make the truth and good news look bi-polar.

It is the equivalent of going to a concert event to witness to people with signs stating "God hates you sinners" and "You're going to burn in hell"

You asked me to show you how you are being a relativist. Danny, I am an expert on spotting these things. I go to battle with the truth against these ideas too often. It only confirms itself all too well when you state Calvinist idea support.

Calvinists are loathed for a very good reason, Danny. I see the philosophical differences as a severe problem. Christian philosophy can NEVER be compatible with anything else and clearly isn't. However, Calvinism makes Spinoza ethics completely rational in infinitism. Which in turn concludes rational pantheism and relativism.

You basically give the enemy 2 pieces of viable ammo to use against Christianity. Relativism and Pluralism via the infinite.

I strongly suggest Wesleyan theology to you instead. That is far better then being a walking contradiction.