Two North American presuppositional apologists demolish...

[DannyM]

Wow, you guys are great! I knew the big guns would be out for this. B.W. has given us lots to think about - again! So you Brothers carry on. I'm going to have a cup of coffee, a cigarette, and watch Scrubs; then I’ll be back. Plus my bum cheeks are killing me I've been sitting down so long!

[RickD]

Rick, sorry for not quoting you but it's hard keeping up with multiple posts.

Please show me the Scripture for God loving every man head for head, and the level or 'degree' of that love.

Back to basics? Scripture, Bro?

Yes Danny, my head is starting to spin.

Danny , jlay and I have attempted to show you how God loves all people, because He sent Christ to die for all the sins of the whole world. John 3:16. That's how God showed His love to us while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8.
EDIT:How about this as well:Ezekiel 33:11Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord [e]GOD, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’

Jacob I loved, Esau I hated. Different levels of love. If you want me to go into more detail, It'll take a while.

So you don’t love unbelievers then? Wow, it took a while, but we got there.

I hope you are joking.

If you don't know who God hates, then how are you making the assumption that God hates Jim and Alex? How do you know that Jim or Alex aren't the 21st century "Saul of Tarsus"?



What? I never made this assumption!

I made the assumption, that you indirectly made the assumption by what you posted here:

You wrote:

Do you even know what a relativist is, dom? Sure, I'm saying God does not love all men, and indeed hates some.

While you didn't specifically say that God hates Jim, and Alex, it seemed you intimated it by the context of all your posts.

Yep, you’ve got it all wrong again. Yes, God hates some. How on earth am I supposed to know whether Alex and Jim are in that “some“?

Danny, OPEN YOUR EYES AND READ THIS!!! That is my point. You don't know if God hates Alex and Jim. So by your " I only love those in Christ, I don’t love atheists, Rick. Do you really love these people?" worldview, how do you make the distinction on whom to love?

This means I specifically love those whom I know and love, it also means that I love those in Christ. Do I love those who are in Christ with the same passion as I love Christ? No. But that will be achieved in the next life.

Danny, you're now getting back to the "feeling" kind of love that we are NOT talking about. You cannot act upon love, to all people in Christ, because you don't have contact with all people in Christ. "Love thy neighbor " means show God's love to thy neighbor. Not feel a gushy sensation in one's stomach, kind of "love".

Rick, can’t you see what I’m saying? I don’t have to know every single man in Christ to say to you that I love my Brothers and sisters in Christ. Those who are in Christ, I love. This can be assumed from the outset!

You have to know every single man in Christ, if you want to show your love for them like "Love thy neighbor" implies.

I love those who are in Christ. I love them as Brothers and Sisters in our Lord Jesus Christ. This is not a love I feel for my son or my mum. It is nevertheless a generalised expression of love,

So you are agreeing with me that there are different levels of God's love, like I'm saying?



LOL. No, I’m not. Who was it that mentioned anthropopathism

Danny, different levels of God's love isn't anthropopathism. Anthropopathism, is the ascription of human feelings to something not human, specifically to God, in this case.

You wrote:

Please show me how this is “the basic belief in Christianity”.

Hopefully, this will help.

The Jews and Samaritans had been enemies for hundreds of years. The Jews of Jesus' society considered the Samaritans to be ceremonially unclean, socially outcast, religious heretics (Mays, p. 1029). Yet, the Samaritan took pity on the poor man who had been robbed and beaten. He gave freely of both his time and his money to help this Jewish man who was not only a stranger, but also an enemy from a foreign country. In His parable of the Good Samaritan, Jesus challenges us to "Go and do the same."

To reinforce that "love your neighbor" applies to everyone, Jesus extended the rule of love to even our enemies!

"There is a saying, 'Love your friends and hate your enemies.' But I say: Love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! In that way you will be acting as true sons of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust too. If you love only those who love you, what good is that? Even scoundrels do that much. If you are friendly only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Even the heathen do that. But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect. (TLB, Matthew 5:43-48)

Like the unselfish Samaritan man of Jesus' parable, we are called to extend our love and concern to all our neighbors. We should not exclude anyone or any group because of social status, a supposed character fault, religious difference, racial difference, ethnic difference, citizenship difference, etc.

[DannyM]

For Agape Love to be love it must also hate evil, sin, and provides the honest truthful just way for such doers to be forgiven and reconciled. This just way is voluntary for it to be truly just and loving. Sinners – enemies of God: Look at these verses: Nahum 1:2, Romans 5:10c, Psalms 68:21c, Psalms 11:5… and Romans 5:10 these verse indeed show that we Christians were once classed as God’s enemies – those he whom hates… but whose love changed us thru Truth of Christ…

This is a foreign concept for many people in these modern times: God’s Love Hates…

Years ago, it was understood and great revivals broke forth worldwide due to understanding it. God’s love is not happy with injustice, unrighteousness, iniquity but happy with the truth… God’s wrath is for his enemies. All humanity is classed as God’s enemies but thru God’s unfathomable love, God provides a means of truth to forgive his enemies who come to the truth and forever change them thru reconciliation of God’s work on the cross/resurrection. That is what love does – rejoices in the truth. So reader, if you do not know Christ Jesus, come to the truth about yourself and surrender to God who loves you enough to reach down and save you from yourself, the devil, and the world.

Those were the messages of old. The Apostle Peter, if alive today in the year 2011 would have been accused of teaching a hate fill insensitive message in Acts 2:14-35, 36, 37, 38c and Stephen in Acts 7:52 as well too.

The Seeker Sensitive approach today bases the concept of God’s love on the principles of the eastern religious systems, mainly Buddhist thought and ideas about God's love have become Anthropomorphically based. So be careful when God’s love no longer offends or calls to his enemies/those God’s hates to surrender and be reconciled back to be loved by God...who demonstrated his love upon the cross and offer grace - you can trust and surrender to a God who does that... He is worthy...

There is this troubling passage in Hosea 9:15 that the writer knew about God and spoke about this very subject… Love them no more – no more chances to warn, to call to return and no more messages to be reconciled and those that heard Hosea died in foreign lands due to being cut off from God’s love; however, God’s love still called to their future progeny to return…

God’s hate is just and is his love provoked… great is this mystery…

Very interesting, B.W. Extremely thought provoking... I'm making this my study for tonight, as it has thrown a spanner into the works regarding one theory I was having.

[DannyM]

Danny , jlay and I have attempted to show you how God loves all people, because He sent Christ to die for all the sins of the whole world. John 3:16.

Rick, do you agree that, if we can find one person that God hated, then John 3:16 cannot mean the whole world, every man head for head?

Ezekiel 33:11Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord [e]GOD, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’

Sorry, Rick, do you think this is a decree or an instruction from God?

Jacob I loved, Esau I hated. Different levels of love. If you want me to go into more detail, It'll take a while.

Yes please, Bro.

So you don’t love unbelievers then? Wow, it took a while, but we got there.

I hope you are joking.

No I’m not joking, Brother. You said it was impossible for me to love my fellow Christians on the basis that I do not know all whom God has given Christ. You asked how do I know who is and is not in Christ. You’ve made quite a thing of this, Rick. I gave you a perfectly valid answer to this, by the way. So have you applied these same standards to yourself with regards to loving unbelievers? But now it appears you are saying you don’t love unbelievers, you only love ‘some’ unbelievers. Only those you come into contact with, I gather? Rick, are Christ’s enemies your enemies?

I made the assumption, that you indirectly made the assumption by what you posted here:

Do you even know what a relativist is, dom? Sure, I'm saying God does not love all men, and indeed hates some.

While you didn't specifically say that God hates Jim, and Alex, it seemed you intimated it by the context of all your posts.

Rick, I intimated no such thing by my words. I’ve consistently maintained that God hates some. I’ve also consistently maintained that I could not possibly know whom those are that God hates. I’ve been unequivocal on this. This all started with me saying, to the effect, Why should I love all atheists when God Himself does not even love everyone. From then on I have maintained that God does indeed hate “some”. There is only one reason I can think of for you to say that I have said or implied that God hates Jim and Alex, and that is because they happen to be two of the debaters at the top of the thread.
This is completely unjustified. I have neither claimed nor implied nor thought for a moment that God hates these two people.

Yep, you’ve got it all wrong again. Yes, God hates some. How on earth am I supposed to know whether Alex and Jim are in that “some“?

Danny, OPEN YOUR EYES AND READ THIS!!! That is my point. You don't know if God hates Alex and Jim. So by your " I only love those in Christ, I don’t love atheists, Rick. Do you really love these people?" worldview, how do you make the distinction on whom to love?

Already been answered below.

This means I specifically love those whom I know and love, it also means that I love those in Christ. Do I love those who are in Christ with the same passion as I love Christ? No. But that will be achieved in the next life.

Danny, you're now getting back to the "feeling" kind of love that we are NOT talking about. You cannot act upon love, to all people in Christ, because you don't have contact with all people in Christ. "Love thy neighbor " means show God's love to thy neighbor. Not feel a gushy sensation in one's stomach, kind of "love".

I’m not talking about a gushy feeling kind of love. I’m talking about a spiritual love for all those who are in Christ. The love I have for my son would not be described as gushy. Gushy is when your son does something double cute. My love for my son is deeper than I can describe. Unless you have access to some deeper love that I’m not aware of.

Rick, can’t you see what I’m saying? I don’t have to know every single man in Christ to say to you that I love my Brothers and sisters in Christ. Those who are in Christ, I love. This can be assumed from the outset!

You have to know every single man in Christ, if you want to show your love for them like "Love thy neighbor" implies.

What? LOL. No I don’t have to know every single Christian in order to assume from the start that I love all those who are in Christ! I’m not even comparing my love for my brethren to loving thy neighbour! Twice I’ve told you now, Bro, what I believe to be the message of Luke’s passage.

Danny, different levels of God's love isn't anthropopathism. Anthropopathism, is the ascription of human feelings to something not human, specifically to God, in this case.

That's a fair point, Rick. However, while not explicitly emotional, you are talking of these different levels of God’s love. I’m saying this seems to go against God’s unity. So projecting your own, human conception of different levels of love onto God, on the basis that you take God's righteous hate to mean a lesser kind of love, or not-quite-hate, or disappointment (or whatever), seems to me to be completely unwarranted

But I’ll tackle this more thoroughly tomorrow, or Wednesday (boy tomorrow).

God bless.

[RickD]

Danny, I think these verses speak for themselves about the topic at hand.

Matthew 5:43-48 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Pay special attention to verses 46-47:46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?

[DannyM]

Danny, I think these verses speak for themselves about the topic at hand.

Matthew 5:43-48 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Pay special attention to verses 46-47:46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?

Yes, it's a very localised command. Well spotted, Bro. No different from your Luke passage. I've answered this and affirmed my compliance with it. Matthew 5 also talks of God, in His providence, providing good things in this world even for the wicked. God's righteousness comes out nice here

[RickD]

RickD wrote:Danny , jlay and I have attempted to show you how God loves all people, because He sent Christ to die for all the sins of the whole world. John 3:16.

Rick, do you agree that, if we can find one person that God hated, then John 3:16 cannot mean the whole world, every man head for head?

No, Danny. I would not agree. But I am interested in who you think "the whole world" means, in John 3:16.

RickD wrote:Ezekiel 33:11Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord [e]GOD, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’

Jacob I loved, Esau I hated. Different levels of love. If you want me to go into more detail, It'll take a while.

Yes please, Bro.

I'll go into more detail, but it'll take a while.

No I’m not joking, Brother. You said it was impossible for me to love my fellow Christians on the basis that I do not know all whom God has given Christ.

Danny, You're still missing the meaning of love that I'm talking about, and "love thy neighbor" is referring to. It's a love that is shown by actions and deeds, directly to the person being loved. Not a feeling of love, nor a assumed love. I'm not saying you can't feel a brotherly kind of love for all believers.

So have you applied these same standards to yourself with regards to loving unbelievers?

Danny, I don't have a standard. I try my best, through the power of the Holy Spirit in me, to love all people I am in contact with. That's not saying I don't fail miserably at times, because I do.

But now it appears you are saying you don’t love unbelievers, you only love ‘some’ unbelievers. Only those you come into contact with, I gather?

Danny, I'm saying, as I've said all along, that I cannot show my love, by actions and deeds, to all people everywhere. That's not practical. That's also not saying that I don't have a brotherly feeling of love for all brothers and sisters in Christ. Because I do. I feel like I'm beating my head against the wall, Danny. You aren't seeing the kind of practical, words, actions, and deeds kind of love I'm talking about. And I don't know any other way to explain what I mean. Maybe someone else can help explain it in a way you can understand.

Rick, are Christ’s enemies your enemies?

I guess so, Danny. I never really thought about anyone being my enemy. But, am I not told to love my enemies? What kind of love do I have for "God's enemies" if I just say "I love you, with the love of Christ", if I don't actually show my love somehow? Just like I thought I made clear with the analogy I made with my wife, here:

If I tell my wife 25 times a day, "I love you", but then berate her, insult her, or physically harm her, am I loving her?

There is only one reason I can think of for you to say that I have said or implied that God hates Jim and Alex, and that is because they happen to be two of the debaters at the top of the thread.
This is completely unjustified. I have neither claimed nor implied nor thought for a moment that God hates these two people.

Ok, Danny, then I apologize for wrongly assuming that. But, It really gets away from my main point about your post that I was shocked over. Even if God hates some people, I still can't see how you make the leap that you did in your post here:

I don’t love atheists, Rick. Do you really love these people? I love whom I love and I love Christ and those in Christ.

That's a fair point, Rick. However, while not explicitly emotional, you are talking of these different levels of God’s love. I’m saying this seems to go against God’s unity

Danny, I could say, prove it, like you usually say. But, I won't. Lets just say we disagree. I don't think it goes against God's unity.

So projecting your own, human conception of different levels of love onto God, on the basis that you take God's righteous hate to mean a lesser kind of love, or not-quite-hate, or disappointment (or whatever), seems to me to be completely unwarranted

Danny, I pointed out earlier, that I'm not saying all instances of God's hate are attributed to a different kind of love. But, you said :"Nice juggling there on the "hate" thing, Brother". I was just trying to explain that the context dictates the meaning, and the word we know as "hate" doesn't always translate perfectly from "God language". Thats what anthropopatheism is.

[RickD]

Danny, I think these verses speak for themselves about the topic at hand.

Matthew 5:43-48 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Pay special attention to verses 46-47:46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?

Yes, it's a very localised command. Well spotted, Bro. No different from your Luke passage. I've answered this and affirmed my compliance with it. Matthew 5 also talks of God, in His providence, providing good things in this world even for the wicked. God's righteousness comes out nice here

If you don't address any of my other posts, please address this. Because this is the crux of my objection with your infamous post.

Danny, can't you see that this here:

If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?

is completely the opposite of what you said here?:

Where am I told to love arrogant, autonomous man? I don’t love atheists, Rick. Do you really love these people? I love whom I love and I love Christ and those in Christ.

Danny, I can see that you have a special gift to understand, and communicate apologetics, in a way that I can't, myself. God has given you this gift because He knows you, and knows your purpose in the body of Christ. I'm just afraid that if there isn't a genuine love for the lost,that comes out in your message, then all your words may be fruitless.

1 Corinthians 13

1 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Every thing we do should be done out of a genuine love for the people God puts in the path in front of us. This love, is not our own, but can only be manifested through us, by the power of the Holy Spirit in us. Danny, if I can get you to understand anything I've been trying to say, it is that.

[DannyM]

Rick, do you agree that, if we can find one person that God hated, then John 3:16 cannot mean the whole world, every man head for head?

No, Danny. I would not agree.

Nice way to totally fortify your position, Rick. In this view contradictions abound with impunity!

But I am interested in who you think "the whole world" means, in John 3:16.

I’m increasingly coming to the conclusion that it means “not just Jews, but gentiles from all nations.”

No I’m not joking, Brother. You said it was impossible for me to love my fellow Christians on the basis that I do not know all whom God has given Christ.

Danny, You're still missing the meaning of love that I'm talking about, and "love thy neighbor" is referring to. It's a love that is shown by actions and deeds, directly to the person being loved. Not a feeling of love, nor a assumed love. I'm not saying you can't feel a brotherly kind of love for all believers.

Rick, please go back and read my original answer to your Luke passage. You’ll find it is totally in line with everything you are saying here.

Danny, I don't have a standard. I try my best, through the power of the Holy Spirit in me, to love all people I am in contact with. That's not saying I don't fail miserably at times, because I do.

Danny, I'm saying, as I've said all along, that I cannot show my love, by actions and deeds, to all people everywhere. That's not practical. That's also not saying that I don't have a brotherly feeling of love for all brothers and sisters in Christ. Because I do. I feel like I'm beating my head against the wall, Danny. You aren't seeing the kind of practical, words, actions, and deeds kind of love I'm talking about. And I don't know any other way to explain what I mean. Maybe someone else can help explain it in a way you can understand.

Right, I think I understand. You mean showing graciousness and kindness whenever one comes into contact with unbelievers?

I guess so, Danny. I never really thought about anyone being my enemy. But, am I not told to love my enemies? What kind of love do I have for "God's enemies" if I just say "I love you, with the love of Christ", if I don't actually show my love somehow? Just like I thought I made clear with the analogy I made with my wife, here:If I tell my wife 25 times a day, "I love you", but then berate her, insult her, or physically harm her, am I loving her?

So you don’t love (in your practical way) all your enemies? That would be impossible, yes? Is it that you just love the enemies who you come into contact with?

I’m looking into this “love your enemies“ thing, will start a thread on it.

Even if God hates some people, I still can't see how you make the leap that you did in your post here:

I don’t love atheists, Rick. Do you really love these people? I love whom I love and I love Christ and those in Christ.

So you are more concerned with me not loving all atheists than the contention that God does not love all people? I’m happy to concede that God does not want me to hate those who hate Him. I’m happy to concede that this particular quirk is not in line with the fruits of the Spirit. Also, since we both admit we do not love all unbelievers, then we can now get to the meat.

So projecting your own, human conception of different levels of love onto God, on the basis that you take God's righteous hate to mean a lesser kind of love, or not-quite-hate, or disappointment (or whatever), seems to me to be completely unwarranted

Danny, I pointed out earlier, that I'm not saying all instances of God's hate are attributed to a different kind of love. But, you said :"Nice juggling there on the "hate" thing, Brother". I was just trying to explain that the context dictates the meaning, and the word we know as "hate" doesn't always translate perfectly from "God language". Thats what anthropopatheism is.

Okay, then please show me this context you are speaking about, Bro. Show me the that is dictating your view of “hate”.

And is anthropopathism always unwarranted?

[DannyM]

Danny, I can see that you have a special gift to understand, and communicate apologetics, in a way that I can't, myself. God has given you this gift because He knows you, and knows your purpose in the body of Christ. I'm just afraid that if there isn't a genuine love for the lost,that comes out in your message, then all your words may be fruitless.

Kind words, Rick, thank you. Not to be too negative, but I think I fail miserably at communicating. I do have a genuine desire for the lost to be found in accordance with God's will, Rick. I know that I can be forthright, but I also know that I have had a little 'success' when talking to the unbeliever. I can't really disprove the notion that, if I showed a little more 'concern out of love' in my communicating with unbelievers, it might lead to more success. I can only say in my defence that that approach never worked for me, and only attracted ridicule and condescension. So in truth I have had more ‘success’ with my current approach. I don’t get much pleasure out of greeting fire with fire.

1 Corinthians 13

1 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Every thing we do should be done out of a genuine love for the people God puts in the path in front of us. This love, is not our own, but can only be manifested through us, by the power of the Holy Spirit in us. Danny, if I can get you to understand anything I've been trying to say, it is that.

Beautiful passage, Brother. This is what I aspire to, Rick. Just not with he who hates my God. I realise that my hate is not, and can never be, righteous.

God bless

[domokunrox]

Well, everyone here does such a great job at this. I almost feel confident I didn't need to do much.

Not trying to open it up again, but I wanted to reply to Danny once again. I am sorry in advance that I don't have he ability to quote, and copy and paste extensively. In fact, I am typing it all on a touch screen just for you Danny. Its a lot of work, friend.

Again, Danny, its not that can't type verses out there in lack of knowledge. My statements are made to see if they click and if you're willing to ponder them. I do not make statements to deceive. TEST EVERYTHING.

I want to address Calvinism. First off, its perverted with Spinoza ideas. You need not look much further then the 5 points they present. Many people shrug it off and don't see the philosophical problem and draw the lines. Even the "reformed" Calvinists don't steer the ship right.

Don't believe me? See if you can find the problems.

Human will
Total depravity without free will permanently due to the nature of divine sovereignty
Election
Unconditional election to salvation with those outside the elect foreordained to damnation
Justification
Is limited to those predestined to salvation, completed at Christ's death
Conversion
Monergistic, though the inner calling of the holy spirit
Preservation and Apostasy
The ETERNALLY elect in Christ will necessarily preserve in faith and subsequent holiness until the end.

I am going to point this out. I would love for someone else to please point out the obvious predestination problem here, please.

I'll take the obviously easy one. Notice how I capitalized ETERNAL? You CANNOT be ETERNAL! That'ss Monism!!!! That implies infinitism which leads to relativism. I cannot stress enough that WE ARE NOT DEVINE!

I don't consider Calvinism protestant. I have no problem if you like to live your life being a bible thumper. Somebody has to do it, and I think it provokes lots of great thoughts, however if you're going to do that then at least do it without contradictions. Hence, I recommended Wes theology.

I am curious, Danny. Is your dismissal of the suggestion one because you don't like it or just commitment to a current denomination?

[DannyM]

dom,

I'm afraid I can barely understand the point you are trying to make. Are you arguing against predestination and election? Please clarify more clearly. Be back later on.

God bless

[domokunrox]

You tell me what you think about predestination after reading this.

Jesus Christ, our God and Lord, died for our sins and was raised for our sins and our justification (Romans 3)
He alone is the lamb of God who takes away the sins or the world (John 1:29)
All have sinned, and are justified freely without their own works and merit, by His grace, through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ, in His blood (Romans 3)

You tell me where it says that only the limited predestined are justified.

Are you lost on my previous point? I am saying we CANNOT BE ETERNAL OR DEVINE. That implies Monism. That's a Spinoza idea.

We can fall away from God. Do you think we are saved once we accept Christ? No sir, our walk continues from there.

[neo-x]

We can fall away from God. Do you think we are saved once we accept Christ? No sir, our walk continues from there.

Ah, just to jump in and point out that Danny and I had talked about it earlier on a couple of threads and well we sort of disagree on some points. (Danny, please allow me to summarize what we talked about, and please forgive me bro, if I quoted you wrong.) I however believe that one can walk to Christ genuinely and then walk away too, thus losing his salvation. I think, Danny believes that those who walk away after they came to Christ were not saved by Christ in the first place.

It is an interesting discussion by far, I hope this leads somewhere...

[RickD]

Rick, do you agree that, if we can find one person that God hated, then John 3:16 cannot mean the whole world, every man head for head?

No, Danny. I would not agree.

Nice way to totally fortify your position, Rick. In this view contradictions abound with impunity!

Danny, like I said before to jlay, I don't really understand everything in what B.W. and jlay are saying about how God both hates and loves some, or maybe all people. What I'm saying is that John 3:16 says that God loved the world(people from all nations). That doesn't mean I'm saying God doesn't "hate" people as well. Perhaps we can start a thread about how God can love and hate.

RickD wrote:But I am interested in who you think "the whole world" means, in John 3:16.

I’m increasingly coming to the conclusion that it means “not just Jews, but gentiles from all nations.”

OK, we agree, here.

RickD wrote:Danny, I'm saying, as I've said all along, that I cannot show my love, by actions and deeds, to all people everywhere. That's not practical. That's also not saying that I don't have a brotherly feeling of love for all brothers and sisters in Christ. Because I do. I feel like I'm beating my head against the wall, Danny. You aren't seeing the kind of practical, words, actions, and deeds kind of love I'm talking about. And I don't know any other way to explain what I mean. Maybe someone else can help explain it in a way you can understand.

Right, I think I understand. You mean showing graciousness and kindness whenever one comes into contact with unbelievers?

Yes, Danny. Graciousness, kindness, humility, compassion, concern for spiritual and physical well-being. All of this has to be genuine. Born out of a love for our neighbor. A love that the Holy Spirit has given us. God first loves us, has given us His Holy Spirit as a pledge or guarantee that what He promises, He will do. We love by the power of the Holy Spirit in us. Not by our own power. As God conforms us to the image of Christ, His power should be more evident, and our nature, while never disappearing totally from our mortal bodies, will become less.

RickD wrote:I guess so, Danny. I never really thought about anyone being my enemy. But, am I not told to love my enemies? What kind of love do I have for "God's enemies" if I just say "I love you, with the love of Christ", if I don't actually show my love somehow? Just like I thought I made clear with the analogy I made with my wife, here:If I tell my wife 25 times a day, "I love you", but then berate her, insult her, or physically harm her, am I loving her?

So you don’t love (in your practical way) all your enemies? That would be impossible, yes? Is it that you just love the enemies who you come into contact with?

I’m looking into this “love your enemies“ thing, will start a thread on it

I can have a kind of love for all people, including those who God would consider His enemies. But yes, I can only show my love to those I'm in contact with, in one way or another.

RickD wrote:Even if God hates some people, I still can't see how you make the leap that you did in your post here:

I don’t love atheists, Rick. Do you really love these people? I love whom I love and I love Christ and those in Christ.

So you are more concerned with me not loving all atheists than the contention that God does not love all people? I’m happy to concede that God does not want me to hate those who hate Him. I’m happy to concede that this particular quirk is not in line with the fruits of the Spirit. Also, since we both admit we do not love all unbelievers, then we can now get to the meat.

Danny, the argument about whether God loves all people or not, is a different topic, in my opinion. It doesn't have a bearing on what I'm addressing here. I only addressed it, because it was brought up. My ONLY concern was that your now infamous post, didn't line up with what I see God is saying about loving our neighbor.

o projecting your own, human conception of different levels of love onto God, on the basis that you take God's righteous hate to mean a lesser kind of love, or not-quite-hate, or disappointment (or whatever), seems to me to be completely unwarranted


Danny, I pointed out earlier, that I'm not saying all instances of God's hate are attributed to a different kind of love. But, you said :"Nice juggling there on the "hate" thing, Brother". I was just trying to explain that the context dictates the meaning, and the word we know as "hate" doesn't always translate perfectly from "God language". Thats what anthropopatheism is.

Okay, then please show me this context you are speaking about, Bro. Show me the that is dictating your view of “hate”.

And is anthropopathism always unwarranted?

Danny, I can try to show you about anthropopatheism. But it certainly doesn't "dictate" my view of hate. After Byblos mentioned anthropomorphism, I searched to see what it meant. I was looking for a way to see how God could both love, and hate people. Maybe if I understood what B.W. and jlay were saying, that would dictate my view of God's righteous hate. If you do a 20 minute search about anthropopathism, you'll know at least as much as I do about it.