Two North American presuppositional apologists demolish...

[RickD]

Kind words, Rick, thank you. Not to be too negative, but I think I fail miserably at communicating. I do have a genuine desire for the lost to be found in accordance with God's will, Rick. I know that I can be forthright, but I also know that I have had a little 'success' when talking to the unbeliever. I can't really disprove the notion that, if I showed a little more 'concern out of love' in my communicating with unbelievers, it might lead to more success. I can only say in my defence that that approach never worked for me, and only attracted ridicule and condescension. So in truth I have had more ‘success’ with my current approach. I don’t get much pleasure out of greeting fire with fire.

Danny, every time we speak to anyone in love, by God's power, we are doing God's will. Sometimes what we say may directly lead someone to a relationship with God. Sometimes we may be just "sowing seeds", that will grow at some time in the future. And, other times we will be ridiculed and persecuted. All we can do, is love our neighbor in word and deed, and then the Holy Spirit will do the rest. It's not our job to convert people. That's the job of the Holy Spirit. As long as we are doing our duty(loving our neighbor in word and deed), then we become free from the burden of having to feel like we need to "save" everyone.

I can only say in my defence that that approach never worked for me, and only attracted ridicule and condescension.

Danny, are you absolutely sure it never worked for you? You may have planted seeds that have taken root, and will grow at a later time.
Danny, I said what I said about you having a gift to understand, and communicate apologetics, not to flatter you, but to help you see that God will use you where you are. He will use the gifts He has given you, for His will. People need to see the "real" love of God, manifested in and through us. It has to be real and genuine, and especially honest, or people will see right through it.
People see all the garbage that "religion" brings to this world. People see all the crap that people do in the "name of God", and that's what they associate with God. Many don't experience the genuine, true love of God, because they don't know any real, loving, true believers. They just see those who claim the name of Christ, as a means to gain their selfish desires.

[RickD]

You tell me what you think about predestination after reading this.

Jesus Christ, our God and Lord, died for our sins and was raised for our sins and our justification (Romans 3)
He alone is the lamb of God who takes away the sins or the world (John 1:29)
All have sinned, and are justified freely without their own works and merit, by His grace, through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ, in His blood (Romans 3)

You tell me where it says that only the limited predestined are justified.

Are you lost on my previous point? I am saying we CANNOT BE ETERNAL OR DEVINE. That implies Monism. That's a Spinoza idea.

We can fall away from God. Do you think we are saved once we accept Christ? No sir, our walk continues from there.

dom, you've brought up some points here, that are a completely separate topic. We already have a topic about assurance of salvation. And, I'm not sure if you realize that there are 2 main predestination beliefs. One is the Calvinist predestination belief that God only predestines those who He chooses, and if He chooses us, we can't resist. And those He doesn't choose, are eternally lost. The other predestination belief, is that God knows beforehand, who will accept His message of salvation. All those God knows who will choose Him of their own free-will, are those that are predestined, and anyone who believes on Christ will be saved.

[RickD]

We can fall away from God. Do you think we are saved once we accept Christ? No sir, our walk continues from there.

Ah, just to jump in and point out that Danny and I had talked about it earlier on a couple of threads and well we sort of disagree on some points. (Danny, please allow me to summarize what we talked about, and please forgive me bro, if I quoted you wrong.) I however believe that one can walk to Christ genuinely and then walk away too, thus losing his salvation. I think, Danny believes that those who walk away after they came to Christ were not saved by Christ in the first place.

It is an interesting discussion by far, I hope this leads somewhere...

neo, we have a long topic that Danny started about secured salvation here:http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 22&t=36306
Even that part about "walking away" has been addressed. Please read and post in that thread, because all this has been discussed there.

[Byblos]

The other predestination belief, is that God knows beforehand, who will accept His message of salvation. All those God knows who will choose Him of their own free-will, are those that are predestined, and anyone who believes on Christ will be saved.

Do they choose him of their own free will without having first been moved by Him to do so? If yes, then that is the very definition of pelagianism. If no, then we're right back on the topic of why some are saved (moved) and others not. I really believe that is what the discussion boils down to.

[RickD]

The other predestination belief, is that God knows beforehand, who will accept His message of salvation. All those God knows who will choose Him of their own free-will, are those that are predestined, and anyone who believes on Christ will be saved.

Do they choose him of their own free will without having first been moved by Him to do so? If yes, then that is the very definition of pelagianism. If no, then we're right back on the topic of why some are saved (moved) and others not. I really believe that is what the discussion boils down to.

Byblos, If you want to continue the discussion here, that's fine by me. I wasn't trying to give a complete definition of what I believe predestination is. Just a brief overview, for those that say predestination is unbiblical. As far as pelagianism, do you have a link that explains it as you understand it? I googled pelagianism, and I'm still not sure what it is, other than they say pelagianism holds to a belief that the believer effects his own salvation.

[jlay]

Do they choose him of their own free will without having first been moved by Him to do so? If yes, then that is the very definition of pelagianism.

I don't think Rick even implied that. You've thrown that Pelangianism thing out on me before as well, and you couldn't be more off base.

Biblically, there is no denying that God moved first in regards to the eternal fate of man. Christ was Crucified since the foundations of the world. In contrasting different views such as Calvanism, Armenianism, Dispensationlism, none fall under the Pelangian category. Although a Calvanist may accuse one of the other two, because of the very determined views they hold regarding election. Pelangiansim views man as morally good, and able to 'find' God without God acting in any way. Heresy. Because it reduces the cross to nothing.

So, it really depends how you are defining 'first been moved.' Please clear this up and give us a precise explanation of what you mean by, "first been moved." A hypothetical would be nice. IMO, if someone hears the gospel, God has already moved. No one hears the Gospel apart from God. But, I can't help but think what you believe is that in some way God comes into the person before they've heard or responded, and in some way does some spiritual tweeking or preprogamming of some sort. In other words, a person can hear the gospel, but if God doesn't flip some spiritual switch in that person, then they are incapable of cooperatively responding to the gospel, no matter what.

Wesley, used the term prevenient grace. Although not an Armenianist, I do find the concept fits very well scripturally.

Rick, Anyone who says predestination is unbliblical needs to be drop kicked. The word itself is right in the scriptures. It isn't predestination that is unbiblical, but some definition/s that is/are unbiblical. Predesitination is NOT exclusive to the Calvanist position. It is a biblical concept. And many have conflicting interpretations on just what predestination actually means.

[RickD]

Do they choose him of their own free will without having first been moved by Him to do so?

I'm sorry, if it seemed like I was avoiding this. I didn't realize it was a question for me to answer, I just thought it was part of Byblos' point he was making.

I don't think Rick even implied that.

I didn't imply that. In fact, I didn't realize that Byblos implied that I was implying that. It must have went right over my head.

Rick, Anyone who says predestination is unbliblical needs to be drop kicked. The word itself is right in the scriptures. It isn't predestination that is unbiblical, but some definition/s that is/are unbiblical. Predesitination is NOT exclusive to the Calvanist position. It is a biblical concept. And many have conflicting interpretations on just what predestination actually means.

I agree, and have openly said that Calvinism's view of predestination is unbiblical, IMO. I can see how Calvinists think their view of predestination is biblical, but I completely disagree. I just get the impression that some people only know the Calvinistic kind of predestination, and therefore, throw out predestination completely.

[Byblos]

Do they choose him of their own free will without having first been moved by Him to do so? If yes, then that is the very definition of pelagianism.

I don't think Rick even implied that.

And where did I even imply that he implied it?

You've thrown that Pelangianism thing out on me before as well, and you couldn't be more off base.

Off base because I'm asking how it is that one person is saved and another not?

Biblically, there is no denying that God moved first in regards to the eternal fate of man.

Thank you, so again I ask you, if God moved first then how is it that two people that were moved in the same manner, one ends up being saved and the other damned?

Christ was Crucified since the foundations of the world. In contrasting different views such as Calvanism, Armenianism, Dispensationlism, none fall under the Pelangian category. Although a Calvanist may accuse one of the other two, because of the very determined views they hold regarding election. Pelangiansim views man as morally good, and able to 'find' God without God acting in any way. Heresy. Because it reduces the cross to nothing.

As long as they maintain that God is the one doing the initial moving then no, they would not fall under pelagianism. But then we're back where we started, which is why some are saved and others damned.

So, it really depends how you are defining 'first been moved.' Please clear this up and give us a precise explanation of what you mean by, "first been moved." A hypothetical would be nice.

My friend, if I could answer that, I will have answered a question theologians who are infinitely smarter than me haven't been able to answer.

IMO, if someone hears the gospel, God has already moved. No one hears the Gospel apart from God. But, I can't help but think what you believe is that in some way God comes into the person before they've heard or responded, and in some way does some spiritual tweeking or preprogamming of some sort. In other words, a person can hear the gospel, but if God doesn't flip some spiritual switch in that person, then they are incapable of cooperatively responding to the gospel, no matter what.

A nice strawman but I never claimed I have the answer, I am the one asking the question. If you say by hearing the Gospel God
has already moved, then please explain why two people who hear the Gospel at exactly the same time in exactly the same manner and one believes but the other doesn't. Was it some independent, inherent value within the believer? Why did not the unbeliever have this inherent value?

Wesley, used the term prevenient grace. Although not an Armenianist, I do find the concept fits very well scripturally.

Ah, so we do agree on some things after all. What is left is for you to define why some have prevenient grace and others don't.

Rick, Anyone who says predestination is unbliblical needs to be drop kicked. The word itself is right in the scriptures. It isn't predestination that is unbiblical, but some definition/s that is/are unbiblical. Predesitination is NOT exclusive to the Calvanist position. It is a biblical concept. And many have conflicting interpretations on just what predestination actually means.

Nothing I disagree with here (in case this was directed at me).

[domokunrox]

Yeah, I am only saying the Calvinist view of predestination is unbiblical.

However, my view on predestination might differ from you guys. Predestination does not mean God is psychic or something like that. That makes no sense to me.

God knows our heart, and our growth & maturity. The very idea that I can choose to turn my back on God and then someone says that God knew I would and I was predestined to be lost is absolute nonsense.

I do believe that God does take an active role in our lives. Puts people in the right places to glorify him, you just need to be willing to.

[Byblos]

Do they choose him of their own free will without having first been moved by Him to do so?

I'm sorry, if it seemed like I was avoiding this. I didn't realize it was a question for me to answer, I just thought it was part of Byblos' point he was making.

It's a question for everyone to ponder, really. I certainly don't have the answer nor did I ever claim I did.

I don't think Rick even implied that.

I didn't imply that. In fact, I didn't realize that Byblos implied that I was implying that. It must have went right over my head.

I assure you no such implication was implied, explicitly or implicitly.

[RickD]

However, my view on predestination might differ from you guys. Predestination does not mean God is psychic or something like that. That makes no sense to me.

I'm not sure what you mean by psychic. Are you saying that God doesn't know everything we will do, before we do it?

God knows our heart, and our growth & maturity. The very idea that I can choose to turn my back on God and then someone says that God knew I would and I was predestined to be lost is absolute nonsense.

It's not nonsense. It just shows that you don't believe in secured salvation, as you understand it. Please look at the thread I posted.

[RickD]

Do they choose him of their own free will without having first been moved by Him to do so?

I'm sorry, if it seemed like I was avoiding this. I didn't realize it was a question for me to answer, I just thought it was part of Byblos' point he was making.

It's a question for everyone to ponder, really. I certainly don't have the answer nor did I ever claim I did.

I don't think Rick even implied that.

I didn't imply that. In fact, I didn't realize that Byblos implied that I was implying that. It must have went right over my head.

I assure you no such implication was implied, explicitly or implicitly.

Thanks, Byblos, for clearing up what I already deduced anyways.

[domokunrox]

Rick, I believe you are secured salvation as long as you stick with it after you've accepted him and made the commitment to him.

The very idea that God will know that I will accept him and then walk from him and that was my predestination is absolute nonsense and unbiblical. Maybe I wasn't clear enough.

[RickD]

Rick, I believe you are secured salvation as long as you stick with it after you've accepted him and made the commitment to him.

So, we ourselves have to continue to "stick with it" in order to be assured of our salvation? Could you expand on this, please?

The very idea that God will know that I will accept him and then walk from him and that was my predestination is absolute nonsense and unbiblical. Maybe I wasn't clear enough.

What do you see as unbiblical ? The part of God knowing that someone could accept Him, and walk away? The part of that being predestination? Or all of it together?

[domokunrox]

Its pretty simple, Rick. Commit to God. Remain faithful to him. Continue to know him. He calls the shots. Salvation secured.

Deviate from that, salvation is in jepordy. God doesn't "predestine" our disobedience to his authority. Doesn't "know" we were going to disobey him and what he has planned. Example? Next year I have been asking him for new professional opprotunies after my daughter is born. He may present me a new plan. He doesn't know, nor I know if I will reject his plan. We are not there. Hence, he isn't psychic or doesn't predestine that I reject his plan.

I may reject it. I may be doing something else. I may go back to what God wants, however it may be different then it was initially.