Two North American presuppositional apologists demolish...

[Byblos]

Its pretty simple, Rick. Commit to God. Remain faithful to him. Continue to know him. He calls the shots. Salvation secured.

Deviate from that, salvation is in jepordy. God doesn't "predestine" our disobedience to his authority. Doesn't "know" we were going to disobey him and what he has planned. Example? Next year I have been asking him for new professional opprotunies after my daughter is born. He may present me a new plan. He doesn't know, nor I know if I will reject his plan. We are not there. Hence, he isn't psychic or doesn't predestine that I reject his plan.

I may reject it. I may be doing something else. I may go back to what God wants, however it may be different then it was initially.

IMO, this makes God the god of contingencies, completely undermines His omniscience.

[RickD]

Its pretty simple, Rick. Commit to God. Remain faithful to him. Continue to know him. He calls the shots. Salvation secured.

Deviate from that, salvation is in jepordy. God doesn't "predestine" our disobedience to his authority. Doesn't "know" we were going to disobey him and what he has planned. Example? Next year I have been asking him for new professional opprotunies after my daughter is born. He may present me a new plan. He doesn't know, nor I know if I will reject his plan. We are not there. Hence, he isn't psychic or doesn't predestine that I reject his plan.

I may reject it. I may be doing something else. I may go back to what God wants, however it may be different then it was initially.

I guess what I'm getting at, is how do you reconcile God's omnicience, and the fact that God exists outside our space-time universe, with what you're saying about how He wouldn't know who would ultimately choose or reject Him? By everything, I'm including knowing beforehand what we, as His creation will do? If God is truly omnicient, then won't He know everything in our creation? Look at it this way :
1 Peter 1:18-20 knowing that you were not [a]redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. 20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you
God knew before the creation of the world, that Jesus would die for our sins. If He knew, before we even existed, that we would sin, and need a redeemer, then why wouldn't God know who would accept, or reject Christ?


EDIT: Dangit, Byblos! You beat me to it while I was writing my response!

[domokunrox]

See, here's where we divide. You guys make omniscience stretch VERY FAR. So far that you make the paradox.

God does have plans that CANNOT be foiled. Examples are the passion story. Jesus told Peter get behind me Satan. His interest was not of God. When Jesus told Peter he was going to deny him, Jesus knew it because he knew his heart and knew how it was.

Peter COULD have said "Yes! I am, and Jesus is my LORD" but when Jesus looked into his heart he knew he would deny because he was in the exclusive position to know it.

God will know it when you know it. If you don't know it, God knows THAT you don't. God knows when your words have meaning behind it. God knows if you are willing to follow. God knows if you're lying about your commitment to him.

That's a whole lot of knowledge, guys. Hardly limited knowledge by any stretch. This is just a taste of examples.

[domokunrox]

In short, God knows EVERYTHING that CAN BE KNOWN. Including a constant update that goes on in the heart of man.

[Byblos]

See, here's where we divide. You guys make omniscience stretch VERY FAR. So far that you make the paradox.

God does have plans that CANNOT be foiled. Examples are the passion story. Jesus told Peter get behind me Satan. His interest was not of God. When Jesus told Peter he was going to deny him, Jesus knew it because he knew his heart and knew how it was.

Peter COULD have said "Yes! I am, and Jesus is my LORD" but when Jesus looked into his heart he knew he would deny because he was in the exclusive position to know it.

God will know it when you know it. If you don't know it, God knows THAT you don't. God knows when your words have meaning behind it. God knows if you are willing to follow. God knows if you're lying about your commitment to him.

That's a whole lot of knowledge, guys. Hardly limited knowledge by any stretch. This is just a taste of examples.

It is on you to show where the paradox lies but this will have to be addressed in a different thread. We are streching this one to the limit as it is.

[RickD]

See, here's where we divide. You guys make omniscience stretch VERY FAR. So far that you make the paradox.

What paradox?

God does have plans that CANNOT be foiled. Examples are the passion story. Jesus told Peter get behind me Satan. His interest was not of God. When Jesus told Peter he was going to deny him, Jesus knew it because he knew his heart and knew how it was.

Peter COULD have said "Yes! I am, and Jesus is my LORD" but when Jesus looked into his heart he knew he would deny because he was in the exclusive position to know it.

God will know it when you know it. If you don't know it, God knows THAT you don't. God knows when your words have meaning behind it. God knows if you are willing to follow. God knows if you're lying about your commitment to him.

I don't disagree with this.

In short, God knows EVERYTHING that CAN BE KNOWN. Including a constant update that goes on in the heart of man.

We don't disagree here, domo. We seem to be disagreeing about what God can know. God isn't subject to the laws of space and time. He created these laws. We don't know the future, because, for us, it hasn't happened yet. God doesn't see the future as not happening yet. Past, present, and future are all part of space time, that God is outside of. so, for a lack of a better way to describe it, God sees everything in front of Him. Including the future. Otherwise He wouldn't be omnicient.

Again, Byblos? How do you keep posting before I finish my post? Are you omniscient?

[Byblos]

Again, Byblos? How do you keep posting before I finish my post? Are you omnicient?

Lol, basically short answers and type 60+ words a minute.

[RickD]

Yeah, I am only saying the Calvinist view of predestination is unbiblical.

However, my view on predestination might differ from you guys. Predestination does not mean God is psychic or something like that. That makes no sense to me.

God knows our heart, and our growth & maturity. The very idea that I can choose to turn my back on God and then someone says that God knew I would and I was predestined to be lost is absolute nonsense.

I do believe that God does take an active role in our lives. Puts people in the right places to glorify him, you just need to be willing to.

dom, that sound a lot like "Open Theism". Here's a link to an article on the home site about Aberrant "Christian" Theology. Open theism is near the bottom, just under Young Earth Creationism.
http://www.godandscience.org/cults/index.html

[domokunrox]

Rick, I know about Open theism. We're not even close.

Heres what I'm saying.

1. Man's free will is free under a sovereign God.
2. God doesn't take "risks". That doesn't make sense.
3. God doesn't need to learn. He already knows everything.
4. God doesn't make mistakes. Thats absolutely crazy.
5. God doesn't change his mind. We change our mind.

Here is where we disagree.

Omniscience does not mean Jesus drives a Delorean and went back to the future to see what I do. This statement doesn't mean God is dynamically Omniscience, either. God knows everything. NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

[Proinsias]

So, if God knows what you will have for breakfast tomorrow, where does that leave free will at breakfast time tomorrow?

[RickD]

So, if God knows what you will have for breakfast tomorrow, where does that leave free will at breakfast time tomorrow?

Next to the... Cheerios?

[Short1]

I've always thought of the free will thing like this... (and excuse me if this is out of place, I only skimmed the last page)

God knows what we will choose, but no matter what.. WE get to choose what it is He knows. It will ALWAYS be our fault for not doing something even if God knew we were going to do it, because we could have just as easily done the right thing instead.

We get to choose what God thinks! (in a sense)

Bottom line... in THIS present, we have free will. It is on our shoulders to make decisions for ourselves, not God's. His knowing has no effect.

[neo-x]

neo, we have a long topic that Danny started about secured salvation here:http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 22&t=36306
Even that part about "walking away" has been addressed. Please read and post in that thread, because all this has been discussed there.

I am aware of that Rick, just wanted to give heads up to Dom that this was already discussed.

[neo-x]

So, if God knows what you will have for breakfast tomorrow, where does that leave free will at breakfast time tomorrow?

I personally think that God knows what will happen in future. But I don't think he exercises this in contradiction to human will. As that would be make no sense. If God knows I will eat cereal the next morning then it is predestined, and it overrides free will. I think God does not see past our choices until we make them. In some cases he does. And when he does, what he says happens. So to me he does not let his will over rides our's, Except in rare or prophetical cases. That to me makes sense, as in, this is the only way I think God's will and human free will does not contradict. Otherwise as someone said - all the world's a stage and we're mere actors.

Please if someone has a better way to sort this thing out, I am more than happy to learn.

[neo-x]

We get to choose what God thinks! (in a sense)

I would disagree as again, it would not be free will if it is God's will. there is a reason we pray "Thy will be done". Cuz, partially, it is in our hands whether we become a part of it or not. And while his will be done, nonetheless, the fact of the matter that I am no longer part of it, makes it non-conflicting with my will and hence his will be done by someone willing and while I who is not willing, can exercise my own will.