I need a short concise answer please

[Danieltwotwenty]

I was having a discussion with a friend about freewill and original sin, his point was if God is outside of time he knows what the outcome is already so the events are already determined and would negate freewill. My best response is that yes he knows the outcome but we are still inside time and have the free choice right now........ im confused. I see his point but i disagree.

I know there are some threads on determinism etc... but there was way too much info for me to absorb and condence it to a short answer.

Thanks in advance

Daniel

[MarcusOfLycia]

Does knowledge of an event cause the event to happen?

[Danieltwotwenty]

Thanks marcus, thats kinda what i was thinking but said better.
If anyone has any other thoughts please feel free.

[Proinsias]

This is a post from a thread long long ago, on a forum far far away, I've found myself coming back to it over the years.

[RickD]

I agree with Marcus.

[Philip]

If we do not have free will, then God would be the cause of our sin. Our free will also comes within precise parameters God has set for us: We cannot fly or walk through walls. Our days are fixed, and God at times intervenes, sways, and sometimes completely alters events as he so desires - despite our free choices. And God has framed our destinies to correspond to our individual RESPONSES to His freely given, totally unmerited offer to either believe/repent/follow Jesus or to reject Him entirely. And our choices lead to very clear and permanent end results: eternal life with God or eternal punishment without him. We are all born able to be either so WILLING to respond to God's overtures or to rebuff them. Only being receptive does not save us, but HE will save all SO WILLING to listen, believe and follow Him - yet they can only do so with His help. And yet, we CAN ALL either be WILLING to respond to God's overtures to us and thus receive His power to save them - or NOT. God saves, but we can only (as a beggar with his hand out) and MUST (for salvation) accept His free gift. God will not FORCE anyone to love Him.

[neo-x]

Does knowledge of an event cause the event to happen?

Yes. Because if not, then how is the knowledge of that event came to be, in the first place?

the only way the knowledge of a future event, is in the present, is because the event is to occur. It has to.

[neo-x]

I don't think God always knew we will sin. But he always knew we COULD sin.

[Danieltwotwenty]

I don't think God always knew we will sin. But he always knew we COULD sin.

I think the problem lies with our inability to comprehend what it would be like to see all time at once, the multi dimensional nature of God is always going to be a mystery.............hmmmmmmmmmm

[neo-x]

neo-x wrote:
I don't think God always knew we will sin. But he always knew we COULD sin.


I think the problem lies with our inability to comprehend what it would be like to see all time at once, the multi dimensional nature of God is always going to be a mystery.............hmmmmmmmmmm

I agree Dan, but given the case, either we stop making assumptions all of it together or we do it as we have already made up our minds and sects and ideas and theology. Break the case with what we know and try to discern with as much accuracy as we can.....no harm done

[Danieltwotwenty]

neo-x wrote:
I don't think God always knew we will sin. But he always knew we COULD sin.


I think the problem lies with our inability to comprehend what it would be like to see all time at once, the multi dimensional nature of God is always going to be a mystery.............hmmmmmmmmmm

I agree Dan, but given the case, either we stop making assumptions all of it together or we do it as we have already made up our minds and sects and ideas and theology. Break the case with what we know and try to discern with as much accuracy as we can.....no harm done

for sure but i really cant see the evidence going one way or the other so far....

[domokunrox]

Does knowledge of an event cause the event to happen?

I'm going to play the other side of the argument

The problem is the paradox.

If the event hasn't happened, how do you know what happened?

We know the universe is going to die a heat death, does that make me partially omniscience?

Are you saying we're already predestined, so I can do anything I want because my life path has already happened?

So, I don't really have a choice right now do I? Since I already did this and did that. The very fact that I am typing a message right now was already decided before I even decided to do it or before I even knew I was going to.


I'm not trying to be difficult here, but do you guys see the implications of this? Our mind is amazingly powerful, and it tells me this is very illogical. Its like an episode of Lost.



If you want my opinion. Being outside of time does not mean you have superior psychic abilities or that you drive a Delorean. Thats a stupid assumption to make straight out of a sci-fi movie.

But since we're talking about God, He is omniscient and knows everything. He knows everything that can be known about the future. The fact that there is an end and EXACTLY when it WILL HAPPEN BECAUSE HE WILLS IT, the movements of the cosmos BECAUSE HE WILLS IT, the future natural progress of the universe. God cannot know what we do until what we will do enters the realm of our mind. This does not undermine his omniscience. That is superior knowledge and in line with the free will he has given us.

God's Prophecy is not an act of omniscience. Its an act of omnipotence. HE CAN AND HAS WILLED EVENTS and made VERY good on his promises.

As I said in another thread
1. Man's free will is free under a sovereign God.
2. God doesn't take "risks".
3. God doesn't need to learn. He already knows everything.
4. God doesn't make mistakes.
5. God doesn't change his mind. We change our mind, and God allows us to.

[RickD]

Does knowledge of an event cause the event to happen?

Yes. Because if not, then how is the knowledge of that event came to be, in the first place?

the only way the knowledge of a future event, is in the present, is because the event is to occur. It has to.

Neo, I hope you can see the flaw of your thinking here. You've summed up your argument's flaw so perfectly here.

the only way the knowledge of a future event, is in the present, is because the event is to occur. It has to.

Knowledge of a future event is not in the present. God's knowledge of an event in our future, is viewed by God, who is outside of time. There is no past, present, and future as God views creation. Time was created, not eternally existing. God is not limited by time.

[B. W.]

Please take a look at my post page two on the thread link posted below... for a short concise answer...

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 0&start=15
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[RickD]

If the event hasn't happened, how do you know what happened?

We don't. We exist inside of time. God's omniscience is not limited to time.

We know the universe is going to die a heat death, does that make me partially omniscience?

No, that makes entropy real, and observable.

Are you saying we're already predestined, so I can do anything I want because my life path has already happened?

I don't see anyone saying that. In our view, life hasn't happened yet, because, right now, we are limited to our time-space reality. God is not limited to time.

So, I don't really have a choice right now do I? Since I already did this and did that. The very fact that I am typing a message right now was already decided before I even decided to do it or before I even knew I was going to.

Who's saying you already did this and that. Who said anything you will do has been decided already? You are not listening to what we're saying.

I'm not trying to be difficult here, but do you guys see the implications of this? Our mind is amazingly powerful, and it tells me this is very illogical. Its like an episode of Lost.

My mind is amazingly simple. And, simple logic tells me you're argument is over-thought, and illogical.

If you want my opinion. Being outside of time does not mean you have superior psychic abilities or that you drive a Delorean. Thats a stupid assumption to make straight out of a sci-fi movie.

Psychic, is a word that pertains to humans. Being outside time, only pertains to God. He is omniscient, and not restricted to time.

The fact that there is an end and EXACTLY when it WILL HAPPEN BECAUSE HE WILLS IT

An end to what? This temporary creation, limited to space and time? Or an end to eternity with God? Think about it.

God cannot know what we do until what we will do enters the realm of our mind.