Petition for Palestinians to Keep their Homes

[Gman]

When somebody has taken a position on the israeli-Palestinian conflict it is often impossible to change their minds, I gave on debating this topic for just that reason. Trying to change peoples minds who have strong opinions on the topic , like gman for example, is like trying to move mount Everest with a twig.

Murray.. It's actually pretty to understand this one... One promotes democracy, the other doesn't.

Don't be fooled...

[Gman]

Hate begets hate, violence begets violence and the circle is never ending, generation to generation...

Ok.. Then go to your local police officer and tell them to give up his or her gun... We will watch what happens to your peace.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

When somebody has taken a position on the israeli-Palestinian conflict it is often impossible to change their minds, I gave on debating this topic for just that reason. Trying to change peoples minds who have strong opinions on the topic , like gman for example, is like trying to move mount Everest with a twig.

Unfortunately, I think Murray is right. I am saddened that people who call themselves ''Christian'' could take a negative view of Israel & Jews in general. Gman doesn't need to be ''moved'' as his ideas about Israel are strictly biblical and therefore correct. I think the measure of your worldliness is inversely proportional to your love of the Jewish people. In other words, the more you love the world, the less you love Israel...and God.

FL

[Philip]

Yes, I think as Christians we should support Israel. However, we must realize that 1) Israel is not a theocracy today; 2) Most Jews in Israel are secular in personal practice; 3) Israel as a nation and as individuals can and have done things they shouldn't have, at times they've treated people in ways that they shouldn't have - just like ALL nations sometimes do.

But does Israel and Jews have a right to the land? If you believe the Bible, the answer is an unmistakeable YES. God gave it to them, said it would forever be theirs, and only He can take it from them. And God IS undoubtedly displeased with some things Israel does just like He is with other nations. So, I think we have to call incidents and issues in light of what God said the acts of nations and individuals should be. Just because we're speaking of Israel, doesn't mean God's standards have changed. Right and wrong behavior aren't different for Israel - or for ANY nation.

And does anyone think the fact that the two greatest evil threats to the world, over the past 100 years (Hitler and today's Islamists), have both shared a core value and seething hatred of Israel is a mere coincidence? Believe me, that's no coincidence!

[Danieltwotwenty]

Yes, I think as Christians we should support Israel. However, we must realize that 1) Israel is not a theocracy today; 2) Most Jews in Israel are secular in personal practice; 3) Israel as a nation and as individuals can and have done things they shouldn't have, at times they've treated people in ways that they shouldn't have - just like ALL nations sometimes do.

But does Israel and Jews have a right to the land? If you believe the Bible, the answer is an unmistakeable YES. God gave it to them, said it would forever be theirs, and only He can take it from them. And God IS undoubtedly displeased with some things Israel does just like He is with other nations. So, I think we have to call incidents and issues in light of what God said the acts of nations and individuals should be. Just because we're speaking of Israel, doesn't mean God's standards have changed. Right and wrong behavior aren't different for Israel - or for ANY nation.

And does anyone think the fact that the two greatest evil threats to the world, over the past 100 years (Hitler and today's Islamists), have both shared a core value and seething hatred of Israel? Believe me, that's no coincidence!

Good point philip

[Rakovsky]

Dear Gman,

I believe it's important for people to be able to live in their homes, regardless of their ethnic background.
So I also sympathize with the many Jewish emigrants, who, as you pointed out, came from Arab countries to Israel, often escaping discrimination.

Perhaps an analogy from our own experience will be helpful. In the 1600's, some of the American colonies' "founding fathers" came to America, escaping religious persecution in the Old Country. They founded colonies that became one of the world's most prosperous countries, and following Independence, they developed principles of people's political rights. Yet decades later, our army dispossed many Indian tribes. For example, the Cherokee were driven west to Oklahoma on the "Trail of Tears."

In my opinion, one should look at the experience of the early settler's persecution in Europe, take away the lesson of having sympathy for refugees and people under religious persecution, and then have concern for the dispossessed Cherokee.

Likewise, I feel sorry about Israeli refugees: Algeria's and Libya's Jewish populations were expelled in 1961-62, and 21,000 of Egypt's Jews were expelled in 1956. From 1948 to the present, nearly 1 million of the neighboring countries' Jewish populations emigrated to the ancestral homeland in the Holy Land, based on the Israeli government's encouragement, the better conditions there, and discrimination in the neighboring countries- the emigrants' descendants now number 3.5-4 million.

As with the American settlers, the Israeli emigrants' hardships and return to their ancestral homeland, another one of the world's most prosperous countries, can be a story that can cause us to look with sympathy on others.

So I feel sorry about Palestinian refugees: about 750,000 were forcibly expelled or fled in the 1948, and another 300,000 were forcibly expelled or fled in 1967. Besides them, many more, particularly Christians, have emigrated in large numbers due to the hardships and poverty of the occupation, as well as policies that displace them like the refusal of housing permits and home demolition. Nearly half of the Palestinian population of 11 million lives in impoverished refugee camps outside of their ancestral homeland, while it is practically impossible for those who have emigrated from their homeland to return.

So I believe the story of each group should bring us to have concern for the other, and sympathize with your words:

Many forget of the genocide that happened against the Jews who lost their homes in the Arab countries surrounding Israel at the time of the war.. Where is their justice?? How will they be rein-compensated for their loses??

However, two qualifications must be made:
First, "genocide" means killing an ethnic group. So I wouldn't describe the refugee status of many Israelis who left homes in Arab countries as genocide, but it is still sad.
Secondly, about 75% of the total Israeli immigrants came in the decades after the war, rather than at that time.

You are right to suggest that Israeli refugees should receive compensation. Jews who were expelled from Arab countries or had their property taken should receive compensation from those countries, just as Palestinians should from the Israeli government. The Arab countries and Israel should also allow Jewish and Palestinian refugees to return to their homes. (I read that Arab countries are allowing their refugees to return, but I assume this is a generalization, and doesn't deal with possible discrimination they may face.)

However, I disagree that Israeli refugees from neighboring countries have been forgotten:

In 2009, Israeli lawmakers introduced a bill into the Knesset to make compensation for Jewish refugees an integral part of any future peace negotiations by requiring compensation on behalf of current Jewish Israeli citizens, who were expelled from Arab countries after Israel was established in 1948 and leaving behind a significant amount of valuable property. In February 2010, the bill passed its first reading. The bill was sponsored by MK Nissim Ze'ev (Shas) and follows a resolution passed in the United States House of Representatives in 2008

I personally disagree with this bill, because the peace agreement would be between the Israeli government and the Palestinians. The Palestinians were refugees themselves and were not responsible for the Israeli immigrants' flight from neighboring countries.

Our discussion reminds me of a story about a Palestinian Christian refugee, who also wants to see Israelis receive compensation:

The absentee from 6 Molcho St.
By Akiva Eldar , Haaretz, 7/23/2010

The entire conversation with Claudette Habesch, which takes place at the Notre Dame compound, on Jerusalem's "seamline," is conducted in English. The only word Habesch says in Hebrew is "shesh" - the number six - which is the address of a house on Shlomo Molcho Street, in the Talbieh neighborhood of Jerusalem, near Rehavia. "Shlomo Molcho shesh," she says in Hebrew. Thus is engraved in her memory the address of the house where she was born 70 years ago.


Claudette Habesch outside the Jerusalem house where she was born.

Palestinian workers from Beit Jallah are now renovating the old stone house. Habesch agreed to be photographed against the backdrop of the three-story building, but she turned down an invitation to tea from Fanny Roselaar, 90, the current owner, who came out to greet her. Roselaar, a retired tour guide, remembers when Habesch visited the house shortly after the Six-Day War in 1967, together with her father, who came from Jordan. The father heartily invited Roselaar to visit him at his home in Amman. It is important to Roselaar to make it clear that her family bought the Ayoub family's apartment (Ayoub is Habesch's maiden name ) for its full price, from the Jewish tenants who settled in it after the War of Independence in 1948.

Habesch, a devout Palestinian Christian, is the director of the Jerusalem branch of the Catholic charitable organization Caritas. The walls of her office are decorated with pictures of popes and bishops who visited the Holy Land. She is a member of the Palestinian Presidential Committee for Christian Affairs. Her son-in-law, Bassem Khoury, was formerly minister of the national economy in Prime Minister Salam Fayyad's government. She participates in the inter-religious activities of Rabbis for Human Rights and is an enthusiastic supporter of a two-state solution to the Israel-Palestinian conflict, one based on the pre-1967 borders, with both states having Jerusalem as their capitals (and no wall ). Habesch knows that Israel's Absentee Property Law does not leave her the shred of a chance of getting the house back or receiving monetary compensation. Her family did not flee, nor was it expelled from the house. The War of Independence (the Nakba, in her language ) caught the family in their winter home in Jericho. Her parents settled in Amman and she and her sister were sent to the Church's school for girls in the Old City of Jerusalem. In 1961 she married a Talbieh-born Palestinian and they made their home in the neighborhood of Shuafat, north of Jerusalem in the West Bank, where she still lives.

The Six-Day War found Habesch in Europe. When she returned, via Jordan, a kind Israeli soldier allowed her to cross the Jordan River on foot, to rejoin her children, who had remained at home in Shuafat. At the end of that June, Israel annexed Shuafat to Jerusalem, making her family Jerusalemites again.

Compensation, not eviction
The memories of her childhood in Talbieh still choke her up. Were it not for the Sheikh Jarrah affair, it is doubtful she would be doing anything about getting her home back. After the war in 1948, Palestinian refugees who had to leave their homes in what was now Israel were housed in Sheikh Jarrah, in East Jerusalem (which was under Jordanian control between 1949 and 1967 ). About a year ago, an Israeli court ordered the eviction of a number of these families from houses that had been purchased by Jews during the period of Ottoman rule. Additional families are candidates for eviction in the near future. In light of this precedent, Habesch is prepared to reopen the wounds of 1948 and take a serious look at the possibility of applying to the courts. Even if the judges order the return of the keys to 6 Molcho St., to her family, Habesch promises it would not occur to her to evict the aged Fanny Roselaar from her home.

That is something that cannot be done, she says - just as she asks that the Israelis stop evicting her brethren from their homes in East Jerusalem and recognize the rights of Palestinian families who left their property behind in the western part of the city. And yes, she does support monetary compensation for, for example, the Jews of Iraq who fled their country in the 1940s and 1950s. They too are refugees and they too have property rights, she notes.

[Gman]

Dear Gman,

I believe it's important for people to be able to live in their homes, regardless of their ethnic background.
So I also sympathize with the many Jewish emigrants, who, as you pointed out, came from Arab countries to Israel, often escaping discrimination.

Anyone can become a Jew... Anyone. Whether you are Arab, white, black, pink, purple... Just like a Christan.

Perhaps an analogy from our own experience will be helpful. In the 1600's, some of the American colonies' "founding fathers" came to America, escaping religious persecution in the Old Country. They founded colonies that became one of the world's most prosperous countries, and following Independence, they developed principles of people's political rights. Yet decades later, our army dispossed many Indian tribes. For example, the Cherokee were driven west to Oklahoma on the "Trail of Tears."

In my opinion, one should look at the experience of the early settler's persecution in Europe, take away the lesson of having sympathy for refugees and people under religious persecution, and then have concern for the dispossessed Cherokee.

Likewise, I feel sorry about Israeli refugees: Algeria's and Libya's Jewish populations were expelled in 1961-62, and 21,000 of Egypt's Jews were expelled in 1956. From 1948 to the present, nearly 1 million of the neighboring countries' Jewish populations emigrated to the ancestral homeland in the Holy Land, based on the Israeli government's encouragement, the better conditions there, and discrimination in the neighboring countries- the emigrants' descendants now number 3.5-4 million.

As with the American settlers, the Israeli emigrants' hardships and return to their ancestral homeland, another one of the world's most prosperous countries, can be a story that can cause us to look with sympathy on others.

Again... It is a horrible comparison to compare the wars between the U.S. and the American Indians as to what is happening with the Israelis and Arabs.. This is a complete joke.. It's not even close... This is not intellectual at all to even say something like this... Why? Becuase the Israelis had no intentions in starting a fight with the Arabs. You have absolutely no proof of Israeli aggression. When the Israelis came to establish their homeland under the U.N. resolutions of 1948, they had no army whatsoever.. And yet they were attacked on all sides... The Israeli positions have always been DEFENSIVE in nature..

They provide Jobs and equal rights to ALL the inhabitants of Israel despite one's ethnicity. Instead the poor Israelis are hated for providing democracy to a desolate land where peoples rights are stolen... Stabbed in the back. And no one cares...

So I feel sorry about Palestinian refugees: about 750,000 were forcibly expelled or fled in the 1948, and another 300,000 were forcibly expelled or fled in 1967. Besides them, many more, particularly Christians, have emigrated in large numbers due to the hardships and poverty of the occupation, as well as policies that displace them like the refusal of housing permits and home demolition. Nearly half of the Palestinian population of 11 million lives in impoverished refugee camps outside of their ancestral homeland, while it is practically impossible for those who have emigrated from their homeland to return.

And I feel so sorry about the Jews.. Especially of the ones that have been living in Israel for the past 3 thousand years... They have been demonized, hated for no cause by certain oppressive extremists.. Their land has been occupied under the evils of the Koran and Sharia laws where women have been treated like dogs and even beaten by their abusive husbands as commanded in the Koran in Surah 4:34. In fact many of the Arabs are commanded not to take Jews and Christians as friends Surah 5:51.. How completely sad and wrong. Those poor people..

So what are the Jews to do? They try to defend themselves against such evils but then get labeled as the aggressors. It's so sad because they have no such intentions to fight or cause war. In fact Jews are commanded to love their neighbors Leviticus 19:18 as recorded in the old testament. In the Koran, Arab extremists are told to fight against the Jews and the Christians as recorded in Surah 9:29. But yet the Jews and Christians are hated.. For no cause whatsoever..

So I believe the story of each group should bring us to have concern for the other, and sympathize with your words:

Many forget of the genocide that happened against the Jews who lost their homes in the Arab countries surrounding Israel at the time of the war.. Where is their justice?? How will they be rein-compensated for their loses??

However, two qualifications must be made:
First, "genocide" means killing an ethnic group. So I wouldn't describe the refugee status of many Israelis who left homes in Arab countries as genocide, but it is still sad.
Secondly, about 75% of the total Israeli immigrants came in the decades after the war, rather than at that time.

Oh is was genocide alright... They wanted to exterminate the Jews at all costs... These poor Jews had no one to protect them. No one would help them.. And when they defended themselves with rakes and farming equipment, their poor bodies were mutilated into small pieces by the opposing Arab armies. Such savage behavior.

But there is more to that story than this... You see because satan (the true enemy of all races) has always wanted to kill the Jews. But he is going to have a problem as more Christians wake up and come to the defense of our brothers the Jews.

You are right to suggest that Israeli refugees should receive compensation. Jews who were expelled from Arab countries or had their property taken should receive compensation from those countries, just as Palestinians should from the Israeli government.

The Arab countries and Israel should also allow Jewish and Palestinian refugees to return to their homes. (I read that Arab countries are allowing their refugees to return, but I assume this is a generalization, and doesn't deal with possible discrimination they may face.)

Nope. Those Arabs started a war with the Israelis and lost.. No second chances.. The cost is too high. Look what happened when the Jews gave up the gaza. More missiles into Israel... They are mandated to kill Jews.. And good luck on getting the Arabs to pay back the Jews on the land that was stolen from them.

However, I disagree that Israeli refugees from neighboring countries have been forgotten:

In 2009, Israeli lawmakers introduced a bill into the Knesset to make compensation for Jewish refugees an integral part of any future peace negotiations by requiring compensation on behalf of current Jewish Israeli citizens, who were expelled from Arab countries after Israel was established in 1948 and leaving behind a significant amount of valuable property. In February 2010, the bill passed its first reading. The bill was sponsored by MK Nissim Ze'ev (Shas) and follows a resolution passed in the United States House of Representatives in 2008

I personally disagree with this bill, because the peace agreement would be between the Israeli government and the Palestinians. The Palestinians were refugees themselves and were not responsible for the Israeli immigrants' flight from neighboring countries.

Not at all... Becuase the Jews were already a majority in Israel before the 1948 war. And they repeatedly asked the Arabs to stay with them in Israel... But these Arabs wanted nothing to do with the Jews.. Instead they made war with the Jews and tried to destroy them as commanded under the evils of Sharia law. How sad...

Our discussion reminds me of a story about a Palestinian Christian refugee, who also wants to see Israelis receive compensation:

The answer is very very simple... Extremely simple in fact... Don't start wars with the Jews. If you do, it will only lead to more wars... Stop the carnage.. And stop demonizing our brother Jews who are only trying to defend themselves.

More truth coming.. Keep it up...

[Rakovsky]

Dear Gman,

Hello! I care about people's human rights. And I think that just because there is a conflict doesn't mean that an entire people should be mistreated.

In our own American history we have a serious problem of inflicting "collective punishment": there was a long-term conflict between the native people and our pioneer ancestors. Often when there were attacks by single Indians, the pioneers dispersed or destroyed neighboring Indian villages. One such case happened around Pittsburgh. One of the most extreme examples of attacks on peaceful Indians based on anger over attacks by other Indians was the Sand Creek massacre.

So I partly disagree when you write:

Dear Gman,
their water and land are strongly restricted, there are day-ling curfews where people who go outside their homes are sniped, get their homes bulldozed, and have to wait for hours at checkpoints between each village. What was particularly remarkable to me was that Christians were treated the same way.

Well that's too bad for those people... But in order to care for people's rights it begins with peace..

I agree that the harsh treatment of the population is bad and isn't caring for people's rights. But my sense isn't that it's unavoidable, or that one must wait for everyone to be peaceful before caring for anyone's rights. And even if peace was required, the people's rights should still be cared for, because at this point, the Palestinian Authority is not fighting the Israeli army and in fact has close police cooperation with it.

Furthermore, much of the harsh treatment of the population, like disparencies in water availability, are hard to see as "security measures":

Palestinian Christian minister dreams of a ‘just peace’
Since the occupation by Israel three decades ago, the Palestinians have endured much, Raheb says. While never annexed by the Israeli government, the West Bank has brought economic advantage to the Israelis, but has brought what Raheb calls “oppression, exploitation and dependency” to the Palestinians. For instance, 80 percent of the water resources – the lifeblood of this arid region – is placed at the disposal of the Israelis and their settlements. Palestinians are allowed the use of only 20 percent of their own water. The Palestinians also pay four times as much for their water supply as do the Israelis. The Israel occupation brought catastrophic consequences to Palestine’s economy, Raheb said. The Occupied Territories were made depend on the economy of Israel. There was virtually no investment made in the agriculture, industry or infrastructures in the West Bank. Health care and education are deplorable to this day, Raheb said. “The Israeli military authorities consider the lives of Palestinians to have no particular value and treat them accordingly, “he says.
http://www.mitriraheb.org/index.php?opt ... &Itemid=22

Stephen Sizer, an English pastor, describes what is happening to a half-Christian village:

Life under Israeli Occupation The Story of Aboud in Palestine.

Sadly, the Israeli government's 'strategy' in Aboud is not unique but typical of how Palestinian villages and towns are being cut off from their fertile land and olive groves, or imprisoned as ghettos behind the 8 metre high Hafrada (Hebrew equivalent of apartheid) Separation Wall, electric fences and tank traps. Aboud is a small Palestinian village of 3,000 people nestling in the hills of Samaria, north of Ramallah. The village boasts stunning panoramic views of Jaffa and Tel Aviv. Half the village are Muslim, the other half Christian. There are three Christian communities in the village, the Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Church of God. The Greek Orthodox church goes back to the 3rd Century. The village has schools and even a small hospital and visiting doctor.

Before 1967, the people of Aboud worked in the fields and the olive groves on the surrounding hillsides. It was a vibrant hub for around 15 smaller villages. Since 1967 the Israeli government has stolen the best land depriving villages access to most of their olive groves and income. They have built three large colonies exclusively for American and European Jews on the confiscated hills around Aboud. They have even stolen the village water pump, diverting the bulk of the water to the settlements. All the roads our of the village have been blocked bar one which is monitored by Israeli control towers, infra-red cameras and checkpoints. They have even defaced ancient burial caves stealing some of the memorials which we saw have been crudely hacked off. Their hilltop church dedicated to Saint Barbara was bombed by the Israeli air force a few years back. Yasser Arafat paid to have it restored.

http://stephensizer.blogspot.com/2011/0 ... aboud.html
[A video presentation by the village's Christians is at ]

I am reluctant to agree with your statement about Christians' homes:

If these Christians were harboring terrorists, then they HAVE to be dismantled too. Period..

As we saw, only 15% of the homes are bulldozed as "punitive" demolitions, so usually the bulldozing isn't for harboring terrorists. And do those demolitions include relatives regardless of whether they were knowingly harboring the fugitives?

I agree that harboring a fugitive is a crime- for example, in Maryland knowingly harboring a fugitive, (someone who is charged with a felony, the worst kind of crime) is punishable by $1000 and/or a prison term of one year. But it must be shown that the person knew they were harboring a "fugitive". Plus, 14 states have an exemption for family members because of “society’s interest in safeguarding the family unit from unnecessary fractional pressures" and it “is unrealistic to expect persons to be deterred from giving aid to their close relatives.”

But must people's homes be destroyed even for "harboring terrorists?" Imagine an old Indian lady has her nephew come to her one night after he has been in an Indian raiding party, and the militia is after him. She cares about her nephew, and maybe she doesn't like raids, but she doesn't want him to get hurt either. In fact, she might not even know he was raiding a village. I don't think it is nice to destroy the lady's home, but this is what our pioneer ancestors often did in retaliation. And today, bulldozing makes entire families homeless.

I also doubt that bulldozing homes is strategically helpful as a deterrent. We have a natural reaction to lash out when we are hurt, but this may not be the best thing. Perhaps there is an understandable sense of "the terrorists have hurt my family, so i will hurt theirs." But ultimately, this is repeating the violence and failing to rise above it. If a person chooses to be a suicide bomber, they obviously do not care about their own well-being already. And as for other terrorists, bulldozing their families' homes would only make them more desperate or angry. It doesn't solve the root conditions leading to the terrorism, which is the bad environment and backwardness, but instead makes other people's conditions worse.

So, terrorism is reprehensible because it attacks civilians, and it is often unrelated to anything the victims have done. Rather than taking in the terrorists' ways and responding in kind, we should accept the spiritual and moral challenge of rising above them and respect other civilians ourselves.

I am glad to hear you say that:

I think that the treatment of Palestinians is important, because among them are the descendants of the first Jewish Christians, it seems like some of the treatment is very harmful,

No one is against Christian Arabs or Muslim Arabs.. They both have rights...

because it shows that you have some sympathy for the native Arab-speaking population as people.

However, I believe that unfortunately there are significant numbers of intolerant people that are against Arab-speaking Christians' rights. A significant minority of Israelis apparently want to see the Arab-speaking population deported:

In a March 2002 poll administered by Tel Aviv University, 46 percent of Israeli Jews supported the transfer of Palestinians from the West Bank and 31 percent advocated the same treatment for Palestinian citizens of Israel; 60 percent said they supported 'encouraging' Palestinian Israelis to leave Israel; and a full 80 percent objected to the inclusion of Palestinian Israelis in decisions of national importance."
...in an opinion poll conducted by Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies at Tel Aviv University in February 2002, 46 percent of the Jewish respondents supported the transfer of Palestinians into Jordan and 31 percent backed the transfer of Israeli Arabs.
http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/vi ... tionID=569

The "Pro Con" website is one of the most balanced websites I've seen, as it lists the "pro" and "con" points on the conflict's major issues. Yet the 80% figure sounds extreme.

Some Palestinian Muslim radicals also have discrimination against Christians- I saw a homemade movie about the everyday life in the occupied territories, and they showed graffiti on a church door. One pastor's mother told him on the phone:

"Of the 40 Christian (and non Christian) families I used to visit only two are left behind. Curfews, local religious fanatics, terrorists and Israeli military check points make me feel like an injured deranged trapped mouse. There is no safety, no protection and no certainty like before. Anyone can walk to your house at night, take you away and no one will care. There are no Palestinian police to protect you, and the Israelis protect their own citizens."
http://www.fatherdave.org/article/article_727.html

[Gman]

Dear Gman,

Hello! I care about people's human rights. And I think that just because there is a conflict doesn't mean that an entire people should be mistreated.

Right.. So please stop mistreating the Jews... They mean you no harm..

In our own American history we have a serious problem of inflicting "collective punishment": there was a long-term conflict between the native people and our pioneer ancestors. Often when there were attacks by single Indians, the pioneers dispersed or destroyed neighboring Indian villages. One such case happened around Pittsburgh. One of the most extreme examples of attacks on peaceful Indians based on anger over attacks by other Indians was the Sand Creek massacre.

Again this is a horrible comparison to compare the Arabs struggle to the American Indians struggle... Absolutely silly.. Jews have been part of Israel since eternity.. There has ALWAYS been a Jewish presence in Israel. Although maybe in smaller populations at times, they have always been there. They are the true natives.. The archeology supports that, the temple, etc.. On top of that it is God who has set them there.. Numbers 34:1-15

I agree that the harsh treatment of the population is bad and isn't caring for people's rights. But my sense isn't that it's unavoidable, or that one must wait for everyone to be peaceful before caring for anyone's rights. And even if peace was required, the people's rights should still be cared for, because at this point, the Palestinian Authority is not fighting the Israeli army and in fact has close police cooperation with it.

That is a bunch of lies.. The PA has been sending numerous missiles from Gaza into Israel practically every other week... If they wanted peace they would stop this madness.. You backed Israel into a corner, forced Israel to defend itself then call Israel the aggressor?? This is extremely stupid...

"Hamas security sources said that two Palestinian rockets were fired into Israel on Thursday night. The Israel Defense Forces said in a news release that one such rocket caused damage to an abandoned building."

http://www.cnn.com/2011/09/29/world/mea ... =allsearch

Furthermore, much of the harsh treatment of the population, like disparencies in water availability, are hard to see as "security measures":Palestinian Christian minister dreams of a ‘just peace’
Since the occupation by Israel three decades ago, the Palestinians have endured much, Raheb says. While never annexed by the Israeli government, the West Bank has brought economic advantage to the Israelis, but has brought what Raheb calls “oppression, exploitation and dependency” to the Palestinians. For instance, 80 percent of the water resources – the lifeblood of this arid region – is placed at the disposal of the Israelis and their settlements. Palestinians are allowed the use of only 20 percent of their own water. The Palestinians also pay four times as much for their water supply as do the Israelis. The Israel occupation brought catastrophic consequences to Palestine’s economy, Raheb said. The Occupied Territories were made depend on the economy of Israel. There was virtually no investment made in the agriculture, industry or infrastructures in the West Bank. Health care and education are deplorable to this day, Raheb said. “The Israeli military authorities consider the lives of Palestinians to have no particular value and treat them accordingly, “he says.
http://www.mitriraheb.org/index.php?opt ... &Itemid=22

Let's not forget that the Syrians also tried to divert water from the Jordan river in 1966 to try and starve off the Israeli water supply.. Let's also not forget that Israel has some of the best water saving techniques in the world. The Israelis do their part to CONSERVE water.. They are not water hogs.. Also I've been to the west bank, they could care less about saving water or keep their areas clean.

Also... It's a mountain aquifer under the West Bank that supplies most of the water there. The PA simply does not care to implement the sufficient water infrastructures and has to rely on Israeli ingenuity to get it out.

Sadly, the Israeli government's 'strategy' in Aboud is not unique but typical of how Palestinian villages and towns are being cut off from their fertile land and olive groves, or imprisoned as ghettos behind the 8 metre high Hafrada (Hebrew equivalent of apartheid) Separation Wall, electric fences and tank traps. Aboud is a small Palestinian village of 3,000 people nestling in the hills of Samaria, north of Ramallah. The village boasts stunning panoramic views of Jaffa and Tel Aviv. Half the village are Muslim, the other half Christian. There are three Christian communities in the village, the Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Church of God. The Greek Orthodox church goes back to the 3rd Century. The village has schools and even a small hospital and visiting doctor.

Again... There would be no problems whatsoever in these areas if they are under Israeli control.. Under the suppressive and highly demonic Sharia Laws is why these areas are cuff off.. To correct the issue simply let the
Israelis take over. Very easy to solve...

Before 1967, the people of Aboud worked in the fields and the olive groves on the surrounding hillsides. It was a vibrant hub for around 15 smaller villages. Since 1967 the Israeli government has stolen the best land depriving villages access to most of their olive groves and income. They have built three large colonies exclusively for American and European Jews on the confiscated hills around Aboud. They have even stolen the village water pump, diverting the bulk of the water to the settlements. All the roads our of the village have been blocked bar one which is monitored by Israeli control towers, infra-red cameras and checkpoints. They have even defaced ancient burial caves stealing some of the memorials which we saw have been crudely hacked off. Their hilltop church dedicated to Saint Barbara was bombed by the Israeli air force a few years back. Yasser Arafat paid to have it restored.

http://stephensizer.blogspot.com/2011/0 ... aboud.html
[A video presentation by the village's Christians is at ]

The Israelis have stolen NOTHING.. Instead these Arabs started a war with the Israelis and are now paying the consequences.. How is it resolved?? Extremely simple... Give up Sharia Law and become part of Israel and flourish!!

As we saw, only 15% of the homes are bulldozed as "punitive" demolitions, so usually the bulldozing isn't for harboring terrorists. And do those demolitions include relatives regardless of whether they were knowingly harboring the fugitives?

No... Sometimes those places need to be taken down if they are deemed unsafe to the occupants too.. What if a wall or roof came down on top of them and someone got hurt?? What about building codes?? How can you prove those places are safe to live in?

I agree that harboring a fugitive is a crime- for example, in Maryland knowingly harboring a fugitive, (someone who is charged with a felony, the worst kind of crime) is punishable by $1000 and/or a prison term of one year. But it must be shown that the person knew they were harboring a "fugitive". Plus, 14 states have an exemption for family members because of “society’s interest in safeguarding the family unit from unnecessary fractional pressures" and it “is unrealistic to expect persons to be deterred from giving aid to their close relatives.”

But must people's homes be destroyed even for "harboring terrorists?" Imagine an old Indian lady has her nephew come to her one night after he has been in an Indian raiding party, and the militia is after him. She cares about her nephew, and maybe she doesn't like raids, but she doesn't want him to get hurt either. In fact, she might not even know he was raiding a village. I don't think it is nice to destroy the lady's home, but this is what our pioneer ancestors often did in retaliation. And today, bulldozing makes entire families homeless.

Again.. What you are taking about doesn't happen all the time there.. You are blowing this out of proportion. And don't forget that the Israeli government also bulldozes Israeli settlements there too.. Again this recently happened in the gaza too.

I also doubt that bulldozing homes is strategically helpful as a deterrent. We have a natural reaction to lash out when we are hurt, but this may not be the best thing. Perhaps there is an understandable sense of "the terrorists have hurt my family, so i will hurt theirs." But ultimately, this is repeating the violence and failing to rise above it. If a person chooses to be a suicide bomber, they obviously do not care about their own well-being already. And as for other terrorists, bulldozing their families' homes would only make them more desperate or angry. It doesn't solve the root conditions leading to the terrorism, which is the bad environment and backwardness, but instead makes other people's conditions worse.

So, terrorism is reprehensible because it attacks civilians, and it is often unrelated to anything the victims have done. Rather than taking in the terrorists' ways and responding in kind, we should accept the spiritual and moral challenge of rising above them and respect other civilians ourselves.

Again the Israelis tried that and paid a very very high price for that. They offered the Arabs peace and were virtually destroyed.

Read the Declaration of Israel's Independence 1948 sometime... They wanted the Arabs to become part of Israel.. They wanted PEACE with the Arabs.. Instead they got war..

"In the midst of wanton aggression, we yet call upon the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to
return to the ways of peace and play their part in the development of the State, with full and equal
citizenship and due representation in its bodies and institutions - provisional or permanent.

We offer peace and unity to all the neighboring states and their peoples, and invite them to
cooperate with the independent Jewish nation for the common good of all."

Source: http://stateofisrael.com/declaration/

I think that the treatment of Palestinians is important, because among them are the descendants of the first Jewish Christians, it seems like some of the treatment is very harmful,
No one is against Christian Arabs or Muslim Arabs.. They both have rights..
because it shows that you have some sympathy for the native Arab-speaking population as people.

Yes.. I would love to see the Arabs flourish under Israeli control as promised in the Israeli declaration. But they resist.

\However, I believe that unfortunately there are significant numbers of intolerant people that are against Arab-speaking Christians' rights. A significant minority of Israelis apparently want to see the Arab-speaking population deported:In a March 2002 poll administered by Tel Aviv University, 46 percent of Israeli Jews supported the transfer of Palestinians from the West Bank and 31 percent advocated the same treatment for Palestinian citizens of Israel; 60 percent said they supported 'encouraging' Palestinian Israelis to leave Israel; and a full 80 percent objected to the inclusion of Palestinian Israelis in decisions of national importance."
...in an opinion poll conducted by Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies at Tel Aviv University in February 2002, 46 percent of the Jewish respondents supported the transfer of Palestinians into Jordan and 31 percent backed the transfer of Israeli Arabs.
http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/vi ... tionID=569
The "Pro Con" website is one of the most balanced websites I've seen, as it lists the "pro" and "con" points on the conflict's major issues. Yet the 80% figure sounds extreme.

The Israeli Declaration still stands and has not been changed based on a opinion poll.

Some Palestinian Muslim radicals also have discrimination against Christians- I saw a homemade movie about the everyday life in the occupied territories, and they showed graffiti on a church door. One pastor's mother told him on the phone:

"Of the 40 Christian (and non Christian) families I used to visit only two are left behind. Curfews, local religious fanatics, terrorists and Israeli military check points make me feel like an injured deranged trapped mouse. There is no safety, no protection and no certainty like before. Anyone can walk to your house at night, take you away and no one will care. There are no Palestinian police to protect you, and the Israelis protect their own citizens."
http://www.fatherdave.org/article/article_727.html

There are ways to get around this... Claim you want to side with Israel and do all you can to get that message out.. You need to get the Israelis to trust you again.