Two North American presuppositional apologists demolish...

[RickD]

What has happened to this thread!

See what happens when you're gone!

[DannyM]

What has happened to this thread!

See what happens when you're gone!

The way it was heading we'd be a better off with a new thread anyway. Coming soon - Limited Atonement!

[narnia4]

Wow...

I'm going to be pondering what's been said on this thread for a looong time. Thank you everyone, even conflict and/or disagreements between brothers and sisters in Christ can bring others closer to God if it is handled in a Biblical way.

[neo-x]

Rick, since I agree with you this is not the thread to start this convo, I am creating a new one, and will copy my posts there and hope we can discuss it there.

here is the link "Free will and Omniscience"
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 22&t=36480

Cheers bro.

[domokunrox]

You tell me what you think about predestination after reading this.

Jesus Christ, our God and Lord, died for our sins and was raised for our sins and our justification (Romans 3)
He alone is the lamb of God who takes away the sins or the world (John 1:29)
All have sinned, and are justified freely without their own works and merit, by His grace, through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ, in His blood (Romans 3)

You tell me where it says that only the limited predestined are justified.

All over the Bible. And your passages do not detract from that.

They do, Danny. Right above says that ALL have sinned and are justified freely.

heres the ESV

22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, ithrough the redemption that is in Christ Jesus

Heres the KJV

22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Heres the NASB

22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Heres the problem, Danny. The passage says ALL. It doesn't say the limited predestined. It doesn't even say predestined. What bible are you reading? Can you go ahead and quote that passage for us?

1. Do what, chief?

When we are baptized, we are not eternal or devine. Far from it. When you make a statement like that, you are implicitly saying that you are now God. Thats affirming a monism view. Heck, thats compatible with Eastern philosophies. In fact, they WANT to hear us tell them that, so they can say they are indeed on the right path. Hence, why I was saying you're affirming relativism which in turn supports pluralism.

2. Yes we are saved and sealed at salvation. But if you want to talk about that you'll have to start another thread, sir.

I disagree very strongly. I would not dare propagate this idea to the world. You absolutely could fall out with God (It happens all the time!). To turn around and say that God predestined someone to walk away from him is complete nonsense and you're the ONLY person I've ever encountered say that in my 8 years as a Christian, and 18 years of hearing the gospel preceding that.

Its very troubling, Danny. How many other passages would I need to quote to change your mind? I don't believe my eyes are deceiving me. Can anyone else confirm for me that I am indeed reading the word "All"?

[RickD]

When we are baptized, we are not eternal or devine. Far from it. When you make a statement like that, you are implicitly saying that you are now God. Thats affirming a monism view. Heck, thats compatible with Eastern philosophies. In fact, they WANT to hear us tell them that, so they can say they are indeed on the right path. Hence, why I was saying you're affirming relativism which in turn supports pluralism.

Dom, I don't see anyone saying that we are eternal or divine, as in equal to God. You are the one who said, that if we say something about eternal, then we are making ourselves out to be divine. You said:

I'll take the obviously easy one. Notice how I capitalized ETERNAL? You CANNOT be ETERNAL! That'ss Monism!!!! That implies infinitism which leads to relativism. I cannot stress enough that WE ARE NOT DEVINE!

I don't see anyone saying we are eternal in the same sense God is eternal, with no beginning and no end. The "eternal" we are talking about has to do with eternal life. It is eternal, in the sense that it has no end, but obviously has a beginning. Two different meanings of "eternal".

DannyM wrote:2. Yes we are saved and sealed at salvation. But if you want to talk about that you'll have to start another thread, sir.

I disagree very strongly. I would not dare propagate this idea to the world.

Dom, we went over this ad nauseum in the secured salvation thread. I completely agree with Danny on this, as do many others. Please read the secured salvation thread.

You absolutely could fall out with God (It happens all the time!).

I'm not going to debate this here. Please read the secured salvation thread.

To turn around and say that God predestined someone to walk away from him is complete nonsense and you're the ONLY person I've ever encountered say that in my 8 years as a Christian, and 18 years of hearing the gospel preceding that.

I think the meaning of "predestined" here is what's causing the confusion.

Its very troubling, Danny. How many other passages would I need to quote to change your mind? I don't believe my eyes are deceiving me. Can anyone else confirm for me that I am indeed reading the word "All"?

After participating in the 'secured salvation" thread with Danny, I can confirm that you are attributing things to Danny, that he doesn't even believe. Dom, you need to take a step back, let your emotions die down, and try to understand, and listen to what Danny is saying. You're arguing against something that he isn't even supporting, in many cases.

[domokunrox]

Link me to the thread, Rick. I probably missed it.

[DannyM]

Thanks, Rick.

Dom, no offence intended, but I find your posts sporadic and rant-like. I'm also partial to a rant, but can you please just write a couple of lines telling me what you mean.

For secured salvation you'll find the thread in this theology forum.

God bless

[RickD]

Link me to the thread, Rick. I probably missed it.

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 22&t=36306