Free will and All loving vs. Predestination and Devine ****

[domokunrox]

Title edited by Byblos. Dom please be careful how you phrase things. Being provocative is one thing but that was simply disgusting.

Its a provocative title, I know. Its been the hot topic for the past few days or so. I don't quite remember when it started. But if you've been here recently and been active then I am sure some of you noticed.

Anyhow, it starting out with Danny making a statement that God hates some people and boy did that cause an uproar. Then there were several other teachings in which myself and others were divided. It began to stem off into God's omniscience bible verses thrown back and forth. Some only want to read scripture and decide for themselves. Some want scripture and then debate. I personally like talking it out and using my philosophy and apogetic knowledge.

I'll be honest. I am severely discouraged. Much of what I said didn't click anywhere aside from neo-x in agreement with some things.

As some of you may know, I am an apologetic and an independent Christian philosopher. My apologetics are studied and I do get them checked up. My philosophies are not under supervision from any church or academic institution. However, this isn't my job as I do this purely out of my love for God and his word. But I stress to many of you, these studies are immensively difficult.

Anyhow, being that I am an apologetic, I do have an apologetic network I consult when I face difficulties. Its always nice to get help and encouragement. So, I ran this discussion forum by a few friends and some were "oh my! That's pretty graphic! You seem like you're doing ok though, i'll pray for your success in enlightening these fine people with your thoughts" or something to that extent. However I got friend who linked me saying I basically just about said everything Norman Geisler said in a presentation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNm54hl ... ata_player

Norman Geisler is a Christian apologetic and philosopher and I would like to share with you guys in its own thread the presentation "Why I am not a 5 point Calvinist" and if you guys would be so kind as to give about an hour of your time to listen to good ole' Norman and tell me what you all think.

[Byblos]

Its a provocative title, I know. Its been the hot topic for the past few days or so. I don't quite remember when it started. But if you've been here recently and been active then I am sure some of you noticed.

Anyhow, it starting out with Danny making a statement that God hates some people and boy did that cause an uproar. Then there were several other teachings in which myself and others were divided. It began to stem off into God's omniscience bible verses thrown back and forth. Some only want to read scripture and decide for themselves. Some want scripture and then debate. I personally like talking it out and using my philosophy and apogetic knowledge.

I'll be honest. I am severely discouraged. Much of what I said didn't click anywhere aside from neo-x in agreement with some things.

As some of you may know, I am an apologetic and an independent Christian philosopher. My apologetics are studied and I do get them checked up. My philosophies are not under supervision from any church or academic institution. However, this isn't my job as I do this purely out of my love for God and his word. But I stress to many of you, these studies are immensively difficult.

Anyhow, being that I am an apologetic, I do have an apologetic network I consult when I face difficulties. Its always nice to get help and encouragement. So, I ran this discussion forum by a few friends and some were "oh my! That's pretty graphic! You seem like you're doing ok though, i'll pray for your success in enlightening these fine people with your thoughts" or something to that extent. However I got friend who linked me saying I basically just about said everything Norman Geisler said in a presentation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNm54hl ... ata_player

Norman Geisler is a Christian apologetic and philosopher and I would like to share with you guys in its own thread the presentation "Why I am not a 5 point Calvinist" and if you guys would be so kind as to give about an hour of your time to listen to good ole' Norman and tell me what you all think.

It seems to me you get more upset with people disagreeing with you than actually weighing their arguments on their own merits. But that's just me.

[DannyM]

Its a provocative title, I know. Its been the hot topic for the past few days or so. I don't quite remember when it started. But if you've been here recently and been active then I am sure some of you noticed.

Anyhow, it starting out with Danny making a statement that God hates some people and boy did that cause an uproar. Then there were several other teachings in which myself and others were divided. It began to stem off into God's omniscience bible verses thrown back and forth. Some only want to read scripture and decide for themselves. Some want scripture and then debate. I personally like talking it out and using my philosophy and apogetic knowledge.

I'll be honest. I am severely discouraged. Much of what I said didn't click anywhere aside from neo-x in agreement with some things.

As some of you may know, I am an apologetic and an independent Christian philosopher. My apologetics are studied and I do get them checked up. My philosophies are not under supervision from any church or academic institution. However, this isn't my job as I do this purely out of my love for God and his word. But I stress to many of you, these studies are immensively difficult.

Anyhow, being that I am an apologetic, I do have an apologetic network I consult when I face difficulties. Its always nice to get help and encouragement. So, I ran this discussion forum by a few friends and some were "oh my! That's pretty graphic! You seem like you're doing ok though, i'll pray for your success in enlightening these fine people with your thoughts" or something to that extent. However I got friend who linked me saying I basically just about said everything Norman Geisler said in a presentation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNm54hl ... ata_player

Norman Geisler is a Christian apologetic and philosopher and I would like to share with you guys in its own thread the presentation "Why I am not a 5 point Calvinist" and if you guys would be so kind as to give about an hour of your time to listen to good ole' Norman and tell me what you all think.

It seems to me you get more upset with people disagreeing with you than actually weighing their arguments on their own merits. But that's just me.

Unfortunately I agree.

[Echoside]

Something I've picked up on as well, though I mean no malice in this statement. I wouldn't claim to be perfect in any regard.

[domokunrox]

Perhaps you should listen to Dr. Geisler before you edited the title.

I didn't come up with the term, btw. The exact opposite of all loving is forced love (rape). Controversial, yes. But faith and Christianity doctrine is a controversial subject.

However, if you guys are into censorship, I have no say in the matter as it is not my site. I just thought you guys would be receptive and not offended.

Also, interesting is the already made comments about my character. Despite that some may think I don't listen, I actually do. Sometimes my response is fast and precise at times, but that's how apologetics is most of the time. Defense statements and rebuttals need only focus on a few errors the other person made. Either by the incorrect word or missing word or something of that sort. Bad context or error in truth claims.

If you want my honest opinion on some of you guys. Some of you are far too offended by what should not offend you and at times you mistake tolerance with political correctness. Political correctness doesn't allow free discussion to proceed.

Its too bad you guys don't know me in real life aside from this typing persona here. I am a load of fun and I love hearing people's story.

[DannyM]

If you want my honest opinion on some of you guys. Some of you are far too offended by what should not offend you and at times you mistake tolerance with political correctness. Political correctness doesn't allow free discussion to proceed.

I'm not offended by anything you have said, dom, and I doubt many others are, either. You'll find there is no PC on this board, and you are free to discuss the topics you wish to discuss. Byblos obviously saw an offence in your title. But he has not censored your free speech.

On the other hand you seem to have taken fierce exception to one or two things I have said - am I to conclude that you are politically correct and far too easily offended? Or should I think you are passionate?

Its too bad you guys don't know me in real life aside from this typing persona here. I am a load of fun and I love hearing people's story.

I'm sure you are, Bro.

[jlay]

Norm co-wrote the book, "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist,' with Frank Turek. I've actually invited Frank to the board, but he is obviously a busy guy.
I'll try and get some time to watch Norm's presentation. No doubt he is a smart guy, and a good OEC.

[RickD]

Dom, I've never heard Norman Geisler speak, nor have I ever read anything he wrote. So that was the first time I've heard him. I'm sorry to have to disappoint you. But there wasn't one thing that he said, that I disagree with. The only question I have is if he was accurate with his description of 5 point Calvinism. I'm not knowledgable enough in Calvinism, to know. He even addressed some things that I brought to up to Danny in the other thread. About how "hate" means "loved less" in certain contexts.
So, sorry to disappoint you, Dom.

[DannyM]

Dom, I've never heard Norman Geisler speak, nor have I ever read anything he wrote. So that was the first time I've heard him.

Take a look at Jlay's recent link on the free will thread, Rick, there's a quote or two from Norman - he may believe in absolute free will.

[RickD]

Dom, I've never heard Norman Geisler speak, nor have I ever read anything he wrote. So that was the first time I've heard him.

Take a look at Jlay's recent link on the free will thread, Rick, there's a quote or two from Norman - he may believe in absolute free will.

Danny, is there something specific I should be looking for? That's a looooong link.
What I heard him say about free will, in dom's link, I completely agree with.

[RickD]

From listening to Norman Geisler, this kind of free will is closest to the one he believes IMO.

Non-open absolute free will
This refers to the idea that God can foreknow exactly what choices man will make, and thus man’s choices are admittedly inevitable rather than “open,” yet man’s choices are still absolutely free in the sense that God can only foreknow them and influence them, but not ultimately determine them.

[DannyM]

Dom, I've never heard Norman Geisler speak, nor have I ever read anything he wrote. So that was the first time I've heard him.

Take a look at Jlay's recent link on the free will thread, Rick, there's a quote or two from Norman - he may believe in absolute free will.

Danny, is there something specific I should be looking for? That's a looooong link.
What I heard him say about free will, in dom's link, I completely agree with.

Yes, scroll down Jlay's link to the second appendix, Rick.

[RickD]

Yes, scroll down Jlay's link to the second appendix, Rick.

Yes I read that, Danny. I can't really comment on someone else's comment of a book I haven't read. From the link Dom posted with Geisler, I understood what he was saying. It didn't seem ambiguous to me. I guess that's what Bart says about people commenting about someone else's comments. If I read the book, I may come to a completely different understanding, than the person in the appendix 2, of jlay's link. But, like I said, I heard Geisler's own words, from his mouth, and I agreed with what he said there.

[DannyM]

Yes, scroll down Jlay's link to the second appendix, Rick.

Yes I read that, Danny. I can't really comment on someone else's comment of a book I haven't read. From the link Dom posted with Geisler, I understood what he was saying. It didn't seem ambiguous to me. I guess that's what Bart says about people commenting about someone else's comments. If I read the book, I may come to a completely different understanding, than the person in the appendix 2, of jlay's link. But, like I said, I heard Geisler's own words, from his mouth, and I agreed with what he said there.

I understand, and I said Norman may believe in absolute free will. What were his words, Rick? Is it that "non-open absolute free will" quote?

[RickD]

I understand, and I said Norman may believe in absolute free will. What were his words, Rick? Is it that "non-open absolute free will" quote?

Danny, the" non open absolute free will " quote, was from jlay's posted thread. Not from Geisler. It just looked like what was closest to what I believe Geisler believes. Closest, but not exact.