Free will and All loving vs. Predestination and Devine ****

[Silvertusk]

Not at all. If you did not have the gift of salvation given to you in the first place then you would not be able to choose it would you. But it is still your choice whether to accept that gift - therein lies your freewill. If you have been ordained from the beginning that you would never choose salvation and were built for hell then this view is no better than the materialists who state that we are no better than the sum of our parts and our whole life is determined by our genetic makeup. If we are made in Gods image then we have that unique gift of total freewill, anything less then we are just puppets made for God's sadistic pleasure considering the amount of people he created just to go to hell.

Silver, is the gift of salvation something God just puts out there, not knowing who will accept and who will scoff?

Yes and no. Yes he puts it there and has no direct affect on what choice we would make - but I think due to his middle knowledge he certainly has a good idea what we will choose because he knows us so intimately. If he can physically see what we choose then the future already exist and then we are under a static state (or B Theory) of time and that comes with a host of other problems.

[DannyM]

Silver, is the gift of salvation something God just puts out there, not knowing who will accept and who will scoff?

Yes and no. Yes he puts it there and has no direct affect on what choice we would make - but I think due to his middle knowledge he certainly has a good idea what we will choose because he knows us so intimately. If he can physically see what we choose then the future already exist and then we are under a static state (or B Theory) of time and that comes with a host of other problems.

Silver, why do some repent and respond and some not? The Bible tells us that sin corrupts man’s heart. How is it that some of us are touched and some of us are not?

Ephesians 2:1-5
1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,

2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.

4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,

5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions— it is by grace you have been saved.

What happened when we were dead in our sins?

Regeneration must precede faith-

John 6:44-45
44 No-one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

Are all men regenerated?

Regarding middle knowledge, if acts of the will are antecedent to God’s decree then we have a big problem here. But John can clear this up-

John 6:63-65
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

65 He went on to say, This is why I told you that no-one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.

Who can teach God knowledge?

Isaiah 40:12-14
12 Who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, or with the breadth of his hand marked off the heavens? Who has held the dust of the earth in a basket, or weighed the mountains on the scales and the hills in a balance?

13 Who has understood the mind of the LORD, or instructed him as his counsellor?

14 Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge or showed him the path of understanding?

God bless

[Silvertusk]

Silver, why do some repent and respond and some not? The Bible tells us that sin corrupts man’s heart. How is it that some of us are touched and some of us are not?

Don't really see how this is relevant. You might have to explain your point in more detail.

John 6:44-45
44 No-one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

Are all men regenerated?

Regarding middle knowledge, if acts of the will are antecedent to God’s decree then we have a big problem here. But John can clear this up-

John 6:63-65
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

65 He went on to say, This is why I told you that no-one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.

None of these phrases are infringing on a persons freewill to choose. It is true that no one can come to salvation unless the "Father has enable him" but I believe God has enabled everyone - just some choose not to take it.

Who can teach God knowledge?

Isaiah 40:12-14
12 Who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, or with the breadth of his hand marked off the heavens? Who has held the dust of the earth in a basket, or weighed the mountains on the scales and the hills in a balance?

13 Who has understood the mind of the LORD, or instructed him as his counsellor?

14 Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge or showed him the path of understanding?

God bless

Who says anything about teaching God Knowledge - like I said he predicts the choice that we will make with such accuracy that he may as well see the future - but since in this time frame - the future does not exist - God cannot see the future.

I dont see what the problem is here - Gods Salvation is for everyone - some choose to take it some don't. It really is that simple. Anything less, then God starts to contradict his benevolent nature by creating people just for hell.

[DannyM]

my father in law is hospitalized and actually as I was writing this my wife called me and told me he was in the ICU. Do you all mind praying for me? His name is Roy, and he taught me a great deal of the bible and I love him dearly.

Praying for you and Roy, Dom.

[DannyM]

Silver, why do some repent and respond and some not? The Bible tells us that sin corrupts man’s heart. How is it that some of us are touched and some of us are not?

Don't really see how this is relevant. You might have to explain your point in more detail.

What moves us in order to repent and respond?

John 6:44-45
44 No-one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

Are all men regenerated?

Are all men regenerated?

Regarding middle knowledge, if acts of the will are antecedent to God’s decree then we have a big problem here. But John can clear this up-

John 6:63-65
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

65 He went on to say, This is why I told you that no-one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.

None of these phrases are infringing on a persons freewill to choose. It is true that no one can come to salvation unless the "Father has enable him" but I believe God has enabled everyone - just some choose not to take it.

Of course there’s no infringement on the free will. I’m showing you that God knows who are His and who are not His.

Who can teach God knowledge?

Isaiah 40:12-14
12 Who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, or with the breadth of his hand marked off the heavens? Who has held the dust of the earth in a basket, or weighed the mountains on the scales and the hills in a balance?

13 Who has understood the mind of the LORD, or instructed him as his counsellor?

14 Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge or showed him the path of understanding?

Who says anything about teaching God Knowledge

You are, Silver. You said:

but I think due to his middle knowledge he certainly has a good idea what we will choose because he knows us so intimately.

In my opinion, Silver, this is all double-speak for “God knows.”

like I said he predicts the choice that we will make with such accuracy that he may as well see the future - but since in this time frame - the future does not exist - God cannot see the future.

He predicts. He’s accurate. In other words, God knows you will be saved?

Romans 8:29
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

God foreknew you, Silver. He didn’t foresee a possible faith in you, He foreknew you.

Anything less, then God starts to contradict his benevolent nature by creating people just for hell.

How so? That’s a hell of a charge, Silver. At creation, did God foreknow that some would go to hell?

[Katabole]

After reading through both threads on Free Will/Predestination/Omniscience I do believe there is a difference especially between those who are the presestined Elect (election) and those of freewill.

As an OEC gap creationist, I hold my creation position through scripture and frankly it is only through understanding that there was an age before this present age, that I have understood the concept of predestination.

I believe souls existed in the ancient past with God and that all souls had free will. Then there was a rebellion against God by Lucifer who deceived a third of those souls. Some souls however, were not deceived and fought against Lucifer. God quashed the rebellion and instead of destroying Lucifer and the souls that rebelled against Him, God instead destroyed that age and created this age. In this age God created flesh humans, gave them the ability to reproduce and in each of these flesh humans, God placed the souls of those who rebelled against Him and also those who fought against Lucifer. To those souls who defended Him by fighting aginst Lucifer, God gave them the gift of a destiny. To all others, God gave free will.

This may seem that God plays favorites, however, we know from Scripture that God is not a respecter of persons. Those souls whom God gave a destiny to are not any different from any of His other children, it's just, in the beginning God considered what they did righteous and gave them a destiny because they fought aginst Lucifer and God knows He can trust them, so they earned a destiny.

Therefore, God will not interfere in the life of a person with free will. Period. I do believe there is an exception to this rule and that is, when a person with free will asks God to interfere in their life, God will only interfere, if it is His will. A person with free will may ask God to interfere in their lives but if it is not God's will, He will not.

A person who has been predestined, God will interfere in their lives and move their lives as He sees fit. It is through this election,(those souls God gave a destiny to) that God fulfills prophecy.

Eph 1:4 (KJV)According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph 1:5 (KJV) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

The name I use on my avatar is Katabole. It is a Greek word as written in verse 4 above, that is popularily transliterated as the English word 'foundation'. What it really means is overthrow.

From Strong's Concordance

2602
katabole
kat-ab-ol-ay'
from kataballw - kataballo 2598; a deposition, i.e. founding; figuratively, conception:--conceive, foundation.

2598
kataballo
kat-ab-al'-lo
from kata - kata 2596 and ballw - ballo 906; to throw down:--cast down, lay.

Verse 4 is claiming that God chose some before the katabole, overthrow (foundation) of that first age.

Rom 8:29 (KJV)For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 8:30 (KJV) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

God foreknew the souls from before this present age and there are many examples through the Bible of people that God directly interferes in their lives (the prophets, Mary, Paul the Apostle), so that they will fufill His will. I will use the apostle Philip as an example.

John 1:43 (KJV) The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.

Jesus goes into the country of Galilee and directly interfere's in Philip's life and calls Him. Philip is an example of a person who has been given a destiny, though it would appear that Philip has free will before Christ calls Philip. Philip certainly didn't ask Christ to become a disciple or volunteer.

Notice in the next verse how John records Philip's response:

John 1:45 (KJV) Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Philip and the disciples that Jesus had already found and called didn't find Jesus. Jesus found them. As Jesus says:

John 15:16 (KJV) Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

I also believe that there are also those of the election (those who have been given a destiny), that God has placed a spirit of slumber upon until the time of Christ's return:

Rom 11:7 (KJV)What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Rom 11:8 (KJV)(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

Therefore some may appear to be of free will until the time when the spirit of slumber is lifted but are in truth of the election. And I believe God has blinded them spiritually for their own protection. God directly interfered in their lives to blind them so they are not of free will.

If God were to give us infallible proof of His existence then our free choice will be gone. As humans, we live in a dimension where we have to use faith because we cannot see God in this dimension. God refuses to mess with the free will of humanity except in the cases where a person asks and only if it is His will.

So that's what I believe about predestination and free will IMHO.

[Silvertusk]

What moves us in order to repent and respond?

Danny -Just to make my life easier - please answer your own questions as well in the same post otherwise this goes back and fore and unfortunately I don't have as much time on these forums as some of you and working the editing of all these quotes is doing my head in. I presume you are talking about the Holy Spirit - but I wont know until you respond. If that is the case then yes the HS does move everyone - but some choose to ignore it consistantly. I suppose this could be seen as the unforgivable sin. Some people need a bit more time for barriers to be broken down first but everyone has to be given the same chance.

John 6:44-45
44 No-one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

Are all men regenerated?

Don't understand what you are getting at here.

Regarding middle knowledge, if acts of the will are antecedent to God’s decree then we have a big problem here. But John can clear this up-

John 6:63-65
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

65 He went on to say, This is why I told you that no-one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.

None of these phrases are infringing on a persons freewill to choose. It is true that no one can come to salvation unless the "Father has enable him" but I believe God has enabled everyone - just some choose not to take it.

Of course there’s no infringement on the free will. I’m showing you that God knows who are His and who are not His.

So we agree - but still God wants everyone to be saved and still offers salvation to everyone so everyone is without excuse.

Who can teach God knowledge?

Isaiah 40:12-14
12 Who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, or with the breadth of his hand marked off the heavens? Who has held the dust of the earth in a basket, or weighed the mountains on the scales and the hills in a balance?

13 Who has understood the mind of the LORD, or instructed him as his counsellor?

14 Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge or showed him the path of understanding?

Who says anything about teaching God Knowledge

You are, Silver. You said:

but I think due to his middle knowledge he certainly has a good idea what we will choose because he knows us so intimately.

In my opinion, Silver, this is all double-speak for “God knows.”

You said teaching God Knowledge - I did not state that at all - I state that God has the knowledge - I said nothing about teaching God - Have no clue where you got that from.

He predicts. He’s accurate. In other words, God knows you will be saved?

Agreed. I thought that was what I was implying in the first place.

Anything less, then God starts to contradict his benevolent nature by creating people just for hell.

How so? That’s a hell of a charge, Silver. At creation, did God foreknow that some would go to hell?

God would predict that some would not accept his Gift - but the fact here is that he offered it to them in the first place. This is what I mean - so no it is not a "hell of a charge" as you put it. If God did not offer salvation to them - then they have an excuse which contradicts Pauls declaration in Romans.

To be honest - i have kinda lost sight of what we are agreeing or disagreeing against now. Maybe if I put it out again in points what I believe.

1) God offers the gift of salvation to everyone because he wants all to be saved
2) God with his middle knowledge can predict the future with viritually 100% accuracy
3) God Knows what we will do - including our acceptance or rejection of his gift of salvation
4) We therefore have complete freewill and have not been predestined to do anything
5) We have no excuse when we are judged.

One more thing - The reason I was frustrated with you at the beginning at this post Danny is I cannot work out how to arrange these bloody quotes - so the less I have to try an insert comments inbetween mutiple lines the better I am - so I would prefer that you would put your point across in its full just to help me out - I appreciate the level of my muppetism here.

[jlay]

Silver, why do some repent and respond and some not? The Bible tells us that sin corrupts man’s heart. How is it that some of us are touched and some of us are not?

If you boil down the RT answer to it's roots, it would be, "because some are preprogrammed for faith, and some are not."
In the most extreme sense, faith, in RT is not really cooperative, but implanted.

John 15:24 If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father.
It is hard to understand, but in this case we see that Jesus is referring to events actually playing out in time, and that yes, there could have been another possibility. It would seem that He is referring to a potential reality.

I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am [the one I claim to be], you will indeed die in your sins."

Now, certainly this is not presented as if some are incapable of responding. If grace is irresistable, then why even make the statement.

[Silvertusk]

Alert, alert. The word 'baptism' does NOT automatically assume water.

"For by one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." 1 Cor. 12:13

One receives the HS the moment they place their faith in Christ for salvation.
So, Rick, I'd also like to know what Silver means by baptism.

Ummm...this one has nothing to do with me....

[Byblos]

1) God offers the gift of salvation to everyone because he wants all to be saved
2) God with his middle knowledge can predict the future with viritually 100% accuracy
3) God Knows what we will do - including our acceptance or rejection of his gift of salvation
4) We therefore have complete freewill and have not been predestined to do anything
5) We have no excuse when we are judged.

Silver,

Don't you think there's a contradiction between 2 and 3? No matter how accurate a prediction is, it is still a prediction, which assumes a guess. But even if you say there is no predicting, God simply foreknows who will accept him and who won't, you still cannot escape the fact that if it is some inherent value within us to choose God that is independent of Him, then we are responsible for our own saving, leading to either pelagianism or a works-based salvation. It makes no difference if you (anyone) think a mental assent to hearing the Gospel is all it takes to accept the message. The fact is that people hear the same message all the time and come to diametrically opposed opinions. Some will hear and accept and some won't. What is so special about those who heard and accepted? Do they have some inner power that others do not possess? Why is it that some believe and some don't?

I ask rhetorical questions because I know full well theologians from creation have been debating this very topic and have come to no consensus. I am happy to acknowledge that apart from God's grace one cannot be saved. I am also happy to concede that our free will does play some measure in the process, however infinitesimal. Both points can be defended biblically.

As to why some are saved and others not, I am equally as happy to concede that it is a mystery that God, in His infinite wisdom, has not chosen to reveal (yet). That is where I stand.

[RickD]

Alert, alert. The word 'baptism' does NOT automatically assume water.

"For by one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." 1 Cor. 12:13

One receives the HS the moment they place their faith in Christ for salvation.
So, Rick, I'd also like to know what Silver means by baptism.

1 Cor. 12:13 may not assume it but it doesn't exclude it either.

But I think we have enough rabbit holes to chase in this thread as it is. Let's leave baptism on the side (Dom, you hearing me? Prayers going out for your FIL, take care of your family first).

Byb, This has to be addressed. If one doesn't have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, then he is not saved. I need to know if dom believes I'm not saved, because I was never baptised in water. My salvation rests on dom's answer.

[RickD]

Danny and Silvertusk, I think this whole debate between you both boils down to the biblical meaning of "predestination". I believe you two are basically saying the same thing, in different ways. Is biblical predestination:

1) God choosing who will be saved, before the foundation of the world, and also choosing who will be damned to hell. Without man having a choice in the matter.

or

2) God knowing, before the foundation of the world, which people will ultimately choose to accept or reject the gospel message. (God's foreknowledge=predestination)
Which is, after God moves, people have a choice to accept or reject.

or

3) Something else.

[Silvertusk]

1) God offers the gift of salvation to everyone because he wants all to be saved
2) God with his middle knowledge can predict the future with viritually 100% accuracy
3) God Knows what we will do - including our acceptance or rejection of his gift of salvation
4) We therefore have complete freewill and have not been predestined to do anything
5) We have no excuse when we are judged.

Silver,

Don't you think there's a contradiction between 2 and 3? No matter how accurate a prediction is, it is still a prediction, which assumes a guess. But even if you say there is no predicting, God simply foreknows who will accept him and who won't, you still cannot escape the fact that if it is some inherent value within us to choose God that is independent of Him, then we are responsible for our own saving, leading to either pelagianism or a works-based salvation. It makes no difference if you (anyone) think a mental assent to hearing the Gospel is all it takes to accept the message. The fact is that people hear the same message all the time and come to diametrically opposed opinions. Some will hear and accept and some won't. What is so special about those who heard and accepted? Do they have some inner power that others do not possess? Why is it that some believe and some don't?

I ask rhetorical questions because I know full well theologians from creation have been debating this very topic and have come to no consensus. I am happy to acknowledge that apart from God's grace one cannot be saved. I am also happy to concede that our free will does play some measure in the process, however infinitesimal. Both points can be defended biblically.

As to why some are saved and others not, I am equally as happy to concede that it is a mystery that God, in His infinite wisdom, has not chosen to reveal (yet). That is where I stand.

I don't think there is a contradiction between 2 and 3 - I Think 3 because of 2 if that makes any sense. I don't see how the fact that you might have something within you that is independant of God that allows you to choose, amounts to a works based salvation at all. I really do not see the connection there at all. Although you could even say that you would not have freewill if it wasn't for God in the first place - so in a way it is not independant anyway.

What is special about those who have heard and accepted - nothing - they made a free choice (the right one - but free nonetheless). Why are some saved and others not - because they chose. If God is choosing who will come to him then like I said before that makes God very cruel because he is denying the others a chance and in fact creating them sorely for hell. I just personally think the theology of "the elect" is a total contradiction to an all loving God and a dangerous theology.

Maybe I am looking at it from too human a view (which is the only way i can) but if you wanted the perfect relationship - wouldn't you create a being that chose you completely freely, physically independent from you. Sure you might influence that person - but not preprogram them to make the choices that you would want. That makes that person no better than a robot and the relationship is tainted.

[Silvertusk]

Danny and Silvertusk, I think this whole debate between you both boils down to the biblical meaning of "predestination". I believe you two are basically saying the same thing, in different ways. Is biblical predestination:

1) God choosing who will be saved, before the foundation of the world, and also choosing who will be damned to hell. Without man having a choice in the matter.

or

2) God knowing, before the foundation of the world, which people will ultimately choose to accept or reject the gospel message. (God's foreknowledge=predestination)
Which is, after God moves, people have a choice to accept or reject.

or

3) Something else.

Definately not 1

2 sounds closer with a smidgen of 3

[zacchaeus]

Katabole, are you speaking of the preadamite world???

To everyone else: Does God knowing (foreknowledge) our choices and decisions (freewill) mean that its predestined, or that He just simply knows? Ex: If I will except Him or not, He hasn't chosen for me but knows what I will choose? or is that way off...

Since God wills us to be saved doesn't He intervene or put callings on our lives (Holy Spirit in your conscience), on a small humanitarian limited knowledge ex: If I want my kids to choose to do something and I know they will choose to do something, like eat a cooky or candy, all I have to do is put the goods on the table and leave them alone in a room for three seconds; ultimately they still have to choose (freewill), GOD just influences... for He knows His thoughts towards us of good and not evil, and when we are tempted let us not think we are tempted of God because God cannot be tempted and He doesn't tempt.

Wrapping it up... close to drawing a conclusion... anyone else here with me, or am I still a loner