Free will and Omniscience

[DannyM]

So, just what is God's WILL? This is explained in 1 Timothy 2:4: His will is that He "...wants ALL people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." But we know He obviously allows, and is angry about, and will eternally punish, those who go against His will. That God hates sin and yet we know men do in fact sin tells us we can choose to go against His will, that this is something He allows but will also punish.

If this is God’s decretive will, then why doesn’t it happen? 1 Timothy 2:4 is likely talking of God’s preceptive or revealed will (His command), and is not a ‘will of decree.’ Like: “You shall not kill.”

[zacchaeus]

So, just what is God's WILL? This is explained in <a target="_blank" data-version="NASB" data-reference="1 Timothy 2.4" class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/1%20Timothy%202.4">1 Timothy 2:4</a>: His will is that He "...wants ALL people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." But we know He obviously allows, and is angry about, and will eternally punish, those who go against His will. That God hates sin and yet we know men do in fact sin tells us we can choose to go against His will, that this is something He allows but will also punish.

If this is God’s decretive will, then why doesn’t it happen? <a target="_blank" data-version="NASB" data-reference="1 Timothy 2.4" class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/1%20Timothy%202.4">1 Timothy 2:4</a> is likely talking of God’s preceptive or revealed will (His command), and is not a ‘will of decree.’ Like: “You shall not kill.”

Who are we to question GOD, certain things we just wont know... Psalm 139:6

I'm more concerned the fact that He desires all men as if He knows all men wont... that's why it doesn't happen!!!

I feel like 2 Timothy 3:7 I'm sure most will agree... we going and going but never able to acknowledge truth, whatever that truth may be pertaining these subjects.

Ezekiel 18:23, 32, 33:11 says it all... answering quite a few question right there in one/two little scriptures

... "Yet, if we do not know the truth, of this, we cannot be ruled by the truth of it; for we don't know"-unknown

[DannyM]

So, just what is God's WILL? This is explained in <a target="_blank" data-version="NASB" data-reference="1 Timothy 2.4" class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/1%20Timothy%202.4">1 Timothy 2:4</a>: His will is that He "...wants ALL people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." But we know He obviously allows, and is angry about, and will eternally punish, those who go against His will. That God hates sin and yet we know men do in fact sin tells us we can choose to go against His will, that this is something He allows but will also punish.

If this is God’s decretive will, then why doesn’t it happen? <a target="_blank" data-version="NASB" data-reference="1 Timothy 2.4" class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/1%20Timothy%202.4">1 Timothy 2:4</a> is likely talking of God’s preceptive or revealed will (His command), and is not a ‘will of decree.’ Like: “You shall not kill.”

Who are we to question GOD, certain things we just wont know... Psalm 139:6

I'm more concerned the fact that He desires all men as if He knows all men wont... that's why it doesn't happen!!!

I feel like 2 Timothy 3:7 I'm sure most will agree... we going and going but never able to acknowledge truth, whatever that truth may be pertaining these subjects.

Ezekiel 18:23, 32, 33:11 says it all... answering quite a few question right there in one/two little scriptures

... "Yet, if we do not know the truth, of this, we cannot be ruled by the truth of it; for we don't know"-unknown

First of all, why have you edited my quote?
Second, what is it you are trying to say?

[zacchaeus]

First of all, I mean number one I didn't "edit your quote", silly...

and um, I think its clear what I was saying...

reread!!!

[DannyM]

First of all, I mean number one I didn't "edit your quote", silly...

Why are you being sarcastic? You've clearly edited my post.

and um, I think its clear what I was saying...

I'm afraid it's very unclear to me what you are saying, so please could you explain for me?

[zacchaeus]

Dan... seriously, wow... sorry if you didn't like my sarcasm, clearly you must not be a technical person. I simply hit quote... "you", the button... and all that jibber jabber must be a tech-issue. As far as me editing your post though, if I did, which I didn't to what avail... what purpose... I suppose those are the tech codes used to be able to quote you and put the link in there for us to hover over the scripture for it to show what it says. I don't think you've thought logically about this at all my friend. Not trying to be all that sarcastic... just saying.

Sorry again, I thought what I said was clear...

Who are we to question GOD, certain things we just wont know... Psalm 139:6

I'm more concerned the fact that He desires all men as if He knows all men wont... that's why it doesn't happen!!!

I feel like 2 Timothy 3:7 I'm sure most will agree... we keep going and going but never able to acknowledge truth, whatever that truth may be pertaining these subjects.

The Ezekiel scriptures should of answered some questions, at least it answered some of mine!!!

... "Yet, if we do not know the truth, of this, we cannot be ruled by the truth of it; for we don't know"-unknown

The quote is simple... in "if" we don't know the truth how can we be ruled by it?

Lets review:
1) We will never know till we ask GOD and even then some things just aren't meant to be known
2) Pointless endeavor, never agreeing, never able to come to mutual agreed truth

Lets end with this
Romans 14:1
2 Timothy 2:14
Romans 14:5

[zacchaeus]

I too send a message, one message to a good friend and very wise back when I first came onto this particular thread; free will and omniscience. I had initial questions back then the same as all of you, some or most of which we still have and this thread really has done absolutely nothing, other than give opportunity to the enemy causing a strong doubt in myself of my own beliefs. I'd like to share with you all what he said. Thanks. After this, I'm truly done... with this thread!!! It has been fun, but quite consuming.

Zac,

I first want to apologize for not getting back to you sooner. I saw your message awhile back and set it aside til I could get to it, and now is when I could get to it.

To some up my opinion, you're right in your estimation on presdestination, stop letting other people lead you astray. Calvin was not only a vile nasty wicked man, he didn't have any problem murdering people, don't listen to him.

Presdestination is a ridiculously stupid idea if you take it as the Calvinist takes it. Calvinism is just plain dumb and easily disproven, Rom 5:6 says for when we were yet without strength, Christ died for the ungodly. It doesn't get any plainer than that. He died for everyone and gave everyone a choice to make, and He did so knowing some of them would reject Him. (imagine He gave them, even the breath they use to curse Him, knowing they would., that's patience.)

The Holy spirit's job is to guide us into all truth according to John 16:13, He will illuminate (give divine understanding of God's word) the scriptures as we pray and ask.

As for many of the questions you're asking, the answers I may or may not know, but the importance of them is non-existent. Ex: Whether God could make a stone so big He could not lift it, is a question for a sceptic, stop worrying about the petty little things and move on to the bigger questions, like how could He give us His word and promise to preserve it (Psalm 100:5) and then it be distorted by man (the answer is it can't so one version must be correct, and all others a perversion (KJV argument.)

God is capable to do whatever He chooses and is not bound by anything, even the impossiblity of boundlessness. In other words, we are incapable of comprehending God's limitlessness, so why bother trying, you'll only end up in a padded room with all sharp objects taken away, sipping your meals through a straw.

Focus on the deeper things of God's word and let the little things take care of themselves. Where did Cain get his first wife? Duh, it has to be one of his sisters. Adam and Eve obvioulsy had more children then just cain, abel and Seth (otherwise we'd not a one be here. it takes a man and a woman.)

Don't worry about things like the gap theory (it's a dumb position to make allowance for evolution) or the vapor canopy theory (probably but what difference does it make today.)

Your Questions: "Can an omniscient, omnipotent, eternal, timeless, boundless, limitless, and uncontained Entity create that which it doesn't already know?"
**************************Who said He didn't already know just because He hadn't created it yet? ***********

"If information is the substance and causation to all that exists, would an omniscient entity not literally be everything and anything in, or of existence? **************** If, again we are forced to play by their rules. If requires me to accept their assumption, a really stupid argument to play with. I don't want to waste my time this way.************************

How does the Trinity play a role in this... their jobs and abilities acting in unity as one? When God asked Adam and Eve why they were hiding after eating from the tree, was it because He didn't know, or just a test of obedience?********************
I don't think it was either. I think He was giving them a chance to turn from their sin and confess their guilt, it's just consistent with His Character.

There is an old saying, "If it's new it aint true and if it's true it aint new." Anything you find I've written is not original with me (a good reason for a good education by the way) so feel free to use whatever you wish.

As for the questions, questions are good when not in the form of doubtful disputation. A lot of people will ask you questions simply to antagonize you, or to cause you to stumble because you don't know. Also, Satan is a master at getting us wrapped around the axle so we can't be useful to God. Don't waste your time looking for answers to questions that don't profit.

Focus on the person of our Lord Jesus Christ, and who He is, stop learning ABOUT Him and start learning from Him.

--Anonymous

[DannyM]

I don't think you've thought logically about this at all my friend. Not trying to be all that sarcastic... just saying.

Not thought logically about what?

Who are we to question GOD, certain things we just wont know... Psalm 139:6

Psalm 139:6
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me, too lofty for me to attain.

Okay. Agreed. Who’s questioning God?

I'm more concerned the fact that He desires all men as if He knows all men wont... that's why it doesn't happen!!!

I feel like 2 Timothy 3:7 I'm sure most will agree... we keep going and going but never able to acknowledge truth, whatever that truth may be pertaining these subjects.

2 Tim. 3:7
always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth.

I don’t see the difference between this and God desiring that all men obey the Ten Commandments.

The Ezekiel scriptures should of answered some questions, at least it answered some of mine!!!

... "Yet, if we do not know the truth, of this, we cannot be ruled by the truth of it; for we don't know"-unknown

The quote is simple... in "if" we don't know the truth how can we be ruled by it?

Still not sure what you’re getting at here.

Lets review:
1) We will never know till we ask GOD and even then some things just aren't meant to be known
2) Pointless endeavor, never agreeing, never able to come to mutual agreed truth

Lets end with this
Romans 14:1
2 Timothy 2:14
Romans 14:5

Romans 14:1
Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters.

2 Tim. 2:14
Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarrelling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.

Romans 14:5
One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

Zac, call me Mr. Thicky, but I am simply at a loss here. What are these scriptures supposed to convey to me? The only idea I have is that you are saying we should cease discussion because it is a bit difficult. But I’m hoping that is not the point, in which case I’ll still be bewildered.

God bless

[DannyM]

To some up my opinion, you're right in your estimation on presdestination, stop letting other people lead you astray. Calvin was not only a vile nasty wicked man, he didn't have any problem murdering people, don't listen to him.

Presdestination is a ridiculously stupid idea if you take it as the Calvinist takes it. Calvinism is just plain dumb and easily disproven, Rom 5:6 says for when we were yet without strength, Christ died for the ungodly. It doesn't get any plainer than that. He died for everyone and gave everyone a choice to make, and He did so knowing some of them would reject Him. (imagine He gave them, even the breath they use to curse Him, knowing they would., that's patience.)

I stopped here. What a lovely fellow...

[1over137]

Romans 14:1
Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters.

2 Tim. 2:14
Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarrelling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.

Romans 14:5
One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

Zac, call me Mr. Thicky, but I am simply at a loss here. What are these scriptures supposed to convey to me? The only idea I have is that you are saying we should cease discussion because it is a bit difficult. But I’m hoping that is not the point, in which case I’ll still be bewildered.

He is saying we should cease discussion because it is of no value (not because it is difficult).
For me this thread was of some value and it haven;t ruined me at all.

[1over137]

... and this thread really has done absolutely nothing, other than give opportunity to the enemy causing a strong doubt in myself of my own beliefs.

Your sentence implies that some of us you consider enemy. Who of us was doing nothing else then to cause a strong doubt in yourself?

I'd like to share with you all what he said.

Thank you for sharing.

After this, I'm truly done... with this thread!!!

Thank you for participating.

"Also, Satan is a master at getting us wrapped around the axle so we can't be useful to God."

Indeed, we always have to be careful.

Focus on the person of our Lord Jesus Christ, and who He is, stop learning ABOUT Him and start learning from Him.

These are wise words.

[RickD]

zacchaeus wrote:
... and this thread really has done absolutely nothing, other than give opportunity to the enemy causing a strong doubt in myself of my own beliefs.

Your sentence implies that some of us you consider enemy. Who of us was doing nothing else then to cause a strong doubt in yourself?

1over, I believe zacchaeus is referring to Satan, when he says "the enemy".

[neo-x]

Hi Danny, my apologies for the late reply

DannyM on Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:35 pm

neo-x wrote:
Did you notice Danny, that the first part of your statement "since we still exercise choice" contradicts with what you wrote here about Paul "Since God knew that Paul would accept the call, at that time, then Paul would not have done otherwise". So it means we only get to choose what God knows, that is precisely where I can't help but make an objection, bro. This makes free will look like, not a gift of God but some form of trick to give humans the false illusion. Either we have free will or we don't. If there is no absolute free will then choice is merely a formality which we will perform as God foreknew. I hope I made my point clear.

Neo, I think the problem here is that you are trying to work out a position where Paul could have done something different. But if Paul had done something different then God would have acted accordingly and brought things about according to His will. And so we have a new situation where you could again ask if Paul could have done something different. And so on and so on. You need to show that Paul’s choice wasn’t a choice, Bro. But how do you do that? To begin with, can you show me that your choices are not influenced in any way? The very meaning of the term choice involves causal determination. Can you demonstrate that choices being causally determined are not true choices?

Brother Danny, I have tried following on the topic and I think I understand your point clearly. I agree with you partially, forgive me but I am still not fully convinced. Because now it is kind of the point where one can say "whatever I do, God knows before hand" as you said "God would have acted accordingly". And I think God does that some time. I am not in the idea that free will means we can win God's favour by works. It simply means that one is not influenced by God to make a choice in his favour or against him.

Was Eve influenced by evil when she ate the fruit? No, she reasoned, as the Bible tells us. So the point that choices are influenced, fails particularly in this scenario. But I see your point. An evil heart will produce bad things.

Neo, do you think autonomous free will is absolutely free in the sense that it can come to God of its own volition?

Yes and no. No, if it thinks that free will can claim salvation, based on the idea of having a free will in the first place. And yes, if God offers salvation then by its own admission it can accept that offer. But when I read John 3:16, I think the offer is made to all. Now it is up to them to either accept God's offer or reject it. I know you don't hold to this.

So no, one cannot come to God without the father enabling him but I think this is not the initiate step. I think first man hears, then repents, when you hear the gospel, the holy spirit will convict you, now either you repent or you don't, this is free will. And I think whoever hears or witnesses the Gospel is enabled by God to have a choice in this matter. If he chooses to accept, he will be drawn to God. So when Jesus says, no one can come to me unless the father enables him, this, to me, means that once the gospel is heard, the work of God begins but it is the same with everyone, not just a few.

neo-x wrote:
I think it only becomes tautological in the sense that one presupposes that God has predestined Paul and hence Paul cannot deviate, since that is what you are saying, bro, that Paul can not say no. From my side, it is not tautological at all. Because to me this sounds like a subtle override on Paul's choices.


Then you need to prove this, Brother. How has God overridden Paul’s choice?

Bro, the same way you think he can't refuse because God already knew he wouldn't.

Can you show that God has forced Paul against some counterfactual state of affairs he hypothetically might have chosen?

Bro, the very reason that we have a choice in accepting God's plan makes me think that God would never force us and if so then foreknowledge would account for nothing. I think you said

"Since God knew that Paul would accept the call, at that time, then Paul would not have done otherwise."

See a difference, you are coming from the same point I hold objection to, brother. Paul can not do otherwise because God already knew. And this is why I say, if Paul can not choose (since God already knew) then we don't have a choice in accepting God (note, I am not saying that Paul can come to God on his own free will merit and not grace. I am saying that even LIMITED FREE WILL also means that Paul can reject God's plan, this has to be or else God forces us). Either we have free will, in at least a personal relationship to God or God's omniscience would make us do nothing except what God knows. Thus in latter conclusion we always get to choose what God knows we would, which again renders choice as just an illusion.

So to me, here are the two possibilities we are talking about

1. We do what God always knew we would do, this amounts predestination to some extent. As you say, we don't have absolute free will, we just have limited choice but NO, we can not say No to God if he intends to change my life (as you think Paul could not have done it since God already knew he wouldn't)

2. God does not force us to do exactly what he knows and we can always change our mind, we have free will (not that our free will has any merit on gaining salvation by works, only acceptance when God offers it to us) , even limited free will YET we can say "Yes" or "no" to God's plan for our lives (not talking about prophecies, bro), we will face the consequences anyway. But if this is so then God's foreknowledge is not even an issue here. Is it? Whether God knew or not, doesn't matter, I can choose, God's knowledge has nothing to do with it, it may even be changed or updated.

I hope you see the problem these stances create

I hope to not go in circles with you bro , just clearing out my points

[neo-x]

Brother Danny,

I think the more pertinent question is, can one use their free will to accept or reject God without God knowing one way or the other?

This is the question I keep wondering about. I guess it will always be a bit of a tricky subject. Hell, I can be wrong all about it, but as long as it doesn't make sense to me, I tend to be critical on the subject.

[1over137]

I found some interesting reading:
http://www.gotquestions.org/predestination.html

To quote (last paragraph):
"Somehow, in the mystery of God, predestination works hand-in-hand with a person being drawn by God (John 6:44) and believing unto salvation (Romans 1:16). God predestines who will be saved, and we must choose Christ in order to be saved. Both facts are equally true. "

... can one use their free will to accept or reject God without God knowing one way or the other?

Based on what is said above, God knows what everybody will choose.