The moral fabric of God

[Anonymous]

Is God supposedly infinite? Yes

If so, you can have a think about it yourselves - he is off our scale completely, he should be not partial to relating to our "morals" like for instance stealing being bad. This is because he must be in tune equally with absolutely everything ever, and this includes even evil itself - and also an infinite amount of concepts dimensions and beliefs we cant even react with, assuming those words can actually describe them.

What I am saying is the only way God could possibly be "all good" is if he is not omnipotent - all powerful, infinite. He may be very powerful, but by no means infinite if you believe he is partial to being good, when partiality is quality of being finite.

I believe Einstein had similar views to the ones I'm expressing here (and I came to my views before I heard of Einsteins btw), but the question I am asking you is that why do you believe there is not any evil within god, if you also believe he is infinite?

My stance is that he is infinitely good and infinitely evil and he will not be biased to one nor the other -OR- he is not infinite.[/u]

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

1) Einstein was a deist
2) Does light require dark to exist? No. Darkness is the abscence of light, and so it is with good and evil. Evil is the abscence of good. And it says in the Bible that God discriminates between good and evil. Can't remember the verse though. Proverbs or Psalms I believe.

[Anonymous]

Yes Einstein was a deist but im not quite sure why you put that down.

If you did for the reasons I think you did, I have to say:

Einstein being a deist does not mean that he did not have them beliefs. A deist is someone who believes in God but in their own kind of rational way, Einstein nearly made out God to be evil when he rationalised his existence, as he said that even though they may be very important for people, morals are not important for such a infinitely large being.

But anyway, hes just another person, though a very high in perspective one lol.

Point number "2" exclaims that light can exist without darkness, true but light and dark are both finite terms. That was a good point. But it is not viable to give an example like that for infinity.

You agree that god is more powerful than anything at anything yes?

Then he must be able to be more evil than anything.

Your views?

[jerickson314]

He may be very powerful, but by no means infinite if you believe he is partial to being good, when partiality is quality of being finite.

The set of all positive real numbers is infinite, even though it does not contain the negative numbers or zero. The set of all even integers is infinite, even though it does not contain the odd ones. The set of all rational numbers is infinite, even though it does not contain the irrational numbers. I could give many more examples.

Likewise, God can be partial to being good without being finite.

Also, he could be capable of doing evil without actually doing evil.

[Anonymous]

Fair point, however I believe that the God is broadly infinite over everything. Not just Good and such the like.

To back this up I am saying that God created everything? So then he created evil in as much of a quantity as good (both infinite). If you then say that the devil was the one who created evil, then I say that God created the devil, with the tendancy to turn on him and to create evil.

God is not partial to just good therefore, because he created evil as well as good.

[Felgar]

Fair point, however I believe that the God is broadly infinite over everything. Not just Good and such the like.

To back this up I am saying that God created everything? So then he created evil in as much of a quantity as good (both infinite). If you then say that the devil was the one who created evil, then I say that God created the devil, with the tendancy to turn on him and to create evil.

God is not partial to just good therefore, because he created evil as well as good.

Evil is the absence of God. God does not create evil, nor do we. What we can do, through our free will, is choose to seperate ourselves from God thus becoming less good. And God respects that decision and so withdraws from us - if he didn't then there could be no such thing as love. Our loving relationship with God could not exist if we did not have the capabilty to turn from Him.

Another analogy. What is cold? Cold is nothing but the absence of heat. So we have the choice to live in an environment that is hot or cold - and if we have absolutely no influence from heat then we have become overtaken by the cold.

[Anonymous]

Do you believe though that God created the universe and everything? If you do, what comes along with it is evil.

[Dan]

Do you believe though that God created the universe and everything? If you do, what comes along with it is evil.

Evil is a nonentity, it is the absence of something, not something itself. When God created everything, He didn't create evil, evil had to spawn from the good God created.

[Anonymous]

I am really quite intrigued by some of these christian beliefs, they actually make more logical sense than I thought before.

But anyway, if God did not create evil, he created good with good having the possibility to lack, and in which case he indrectly created evil. Obviously knowing that he would be creating evil second hand (being all-knowing), and so it doesn't matter about the indirect thing, he is the source of evil.

[Dan]

I am really quite intrigued by some of these christian beliefs, they actually make more logical sense than I thought before.

But anyway, if God did not create evil, he created good with good having the possibility to lack, and in which case he indrectly created evil. Obviously knowing that he would be creating evil second hand (being all-knowing), and so it doesn't matter about the indirect thing, he is the source of evil.

Indirectly, perhaps, because he DID create Satan who DID fall, who DID misguide Eve, who DID misguide Adam.

However, does it matter? If a man puts a gun down with no ammo and the safety on and gets distracted for a second, is it his fault if a punk takes the gun, loads it, and shoots someone?

The Bible even says that it doesn't matter what the circumstances were regarding someone sinning, it's still their fault that they sinned. They are accountable for what they have done.

Notice how in the beginning, Satan was punished, Eve was punished, and Adam was punished, but they weren't punished for what they did to others per se. They were punished because they were all disobedient to God. Satan misled Eve, this is against God, He was punished for that sin, not for causing Eve to sin. If Eve resisted temptation, he would have still been punished. Adam & Eve were punished for eating of the fruit. Eve wasn't punished for 'misleading' Adam because she was misguided herself. She was ignorant of what she was doing.

So, God is not accountable for sin, He tried to keep His creations from sin, He ordered them not to, but because He gave them personality and free will, they ultimately made the choice. They all made the wrong choice obviously and all brought evil into the world, but they were the ones who did it. Not God.

[Felgar]

But anyway, if God did not create evil, he created good with good having the possibility to lack, and in which case he indrectly created evil. Obviously knowing that he would be creating evil second hand (being all-knowing), and so it doesn't matter about the indirect thing, he is the source of evil.

We can agree that God created good with the capability of an individual to become unrighteous by turning from God. So God gave us the ability to turn from righteousness. And that's exactly what hell is - the complete absence of God.

So if you can agree with that then fine. From there I don't see the point you are making. Do you feel that you're superior to God and can propose a better alternative than what He has done? If so, please share your ideas.

[Anonymous]

I dont think you are getting the point I am making here.

I never sed that I thought God existed, I am trying to ask questions as to why you believe God created everything, yet he didn't create sin.

I cannot purpose a better alternative because my perspective is biased to preferring good. There is no fundamental sense of "better" in my opinon, other than my own chemical likings. There is no sense of alternatives, as (I believe) that existance includes absolutely everything, good, evil, cats, dogs, mutations between a cat and a dog and whatever the like, and has been around for infinity, assuming you are talking about this universe with the dimension of time within it. Existance is the only thing that holds stuff that exists, and in whatever balance it arranges out for anything, and there cant be an alternative.

If God gave us the ability to turn from righteousness, he has then created a sense of potential deviation from him and then created evil (as it is the absence of God).

I am not saying he is an evil son of a *****, lol. I am saying I believe he is an equal[\u] god if he exists, because he created everything and there is no reason why he should then cling to the "good" and not at all the bad (which is a concensus of what humans believe is the right thing to do), when there will be an infinite amount of other species all over the universe that are intelligent and believe the exact opposite from good, evil.

I suppose you have the "devil" thing to balance it out, as he is the head figure of evil, though there is as much likelihood that an equal creator created a good head figure also.

[jerickson314]

There is no fundamental sense of "better" in my opinon, other than my own chemical likings.

This is not what Christianity teaches. Christianity teaches that God defines what "good" means. Good = God's will.

If God gave us the ability to turn from righteousness, he has then created a sense of potential deviation from him and then created evil (as it is the absence of God).

He created the potential for evil, not evil itself. He created other beings who had free will as he did, and who could act as first causes. They became the first cause of evil. He did not simply create bags of reacting chemicals but also non-physical souls with free will. This is the Armenian view I hold to, at least.

I am saying I believe he is an equal god if he exists, because he created everything and there is no reason why he should then cling to the "good" and not at all the bad (which is a concensus of what humans believe is the right thing to do), when there will be an infinite amount of other species all over the universe that are intelligent and believe the exact opposite from good, evil.

No, as I said above. He defines "good".

I suppose you have the "devil" thing to balance it out, as he is the head figure of evil, though there is as much likelihood that an equal creator created a good head figure also.

The devil was one of the free agents created who was the first cause of evil. He is not truly the head of evil, as humanity's sin nature causes evil without direct intervention from the devil. There is no "good" head figure except God who defines it.

[Dan]

Ah, I see you brought up if God created sin or not Essedarius.

Tell me, did God create 'jump', or 'run'? To sin is an action just like to jump and to run. Can you really create an abstract concept? To sin is to disobey God. The very fact that you can OBEY God creates the possibility, the concept of disobedience to God. Is sin really something? Or is it simply a concept that exists purely because of something else that is truly tangible.

[CountryBoy]

If we don't have the ability to sin (disobey God), then we are simply robots. Which do you think would be more rewarding, having a robot kid programmed to love you or a real live kid who chooses to love you? That's the concept. God did not create evil, but He absolutely knew it was part of the free will thing when He created us. He knew when He created us with free wills, that some would turn from Him to evil (our will over God's will).

So yes, God knew about the evil before hand, He created us with free wills knowing that evil would come from it, but He thinks it's worth it! He's God, let Him play it out til the end and see what you think.

We choose our own path (free will). That's where you think God is not infinite I believe. Because He gave up His power over our will, by giving us the capability to disobey Him. So He allows evil, He does not create it. I've got a 6 yr old girl. I allow her to disagree with me. I don't condone it, and there are consequences! But I do allow it. When my wife and I got married, I wanted kids, and I was smart enough to realize that kids will certainly disobey, and I knew mine would. But I thought I could love her enough that she would choose to love me in return. And she does, and I have to tell you, when she throws those little arms around my neck and gives me that goodnight kiss, my heart melts! Yes, it's worth it. I believe that God feels those hugs on His heart from the millions of Christians that love Him...and His heart melts. God gave up His throne in Heaven to come live on earth for 33 years to show us it could be done, to walk amoung us, to pour out His love through the sacrifice on the cross. God is infinitely good in my book, if there's anything He can't do it's because He removed Himself from being able to. He can't change our free will, He can't lie or cheat, He's just infinity Good..that's all, and Infinately unbad.

You may be toying with the idea of God yourself, weighing the logic of Christianity. That's what we as Christians believe is the Holy Spirit leading you in that direction. God doesn't have to follow our logic. Many people, non-Christians mostly, have the hardest time with good and evil.