Free will and Omniscience

[neo-x]

God predestines who will be saved, and we must choose Christ in order to be saved. Based on what is said above, God knows what everybody will choose.

The problem is, if God predestines who will be saved then what everybody will choose doesn't matter, Hana. Unless we say that God has predestined that everyone be saved and we get the choice to choose (as in we have the will to accept God's gift of grace), I don't see how the above two lines support each other because they actually contradict.

[CeT-To]

God chose us to choose him, but will we?

[1over137]

God predestines who will be saved, and we must choose Christ in order to be saved. Based on what is said above, God knows what everybody will choose.

The problem is, if God predestines who will be saved then what everybody will choose doesn't matter, Hana. Unless we say that God has predestined that everyone be saved and we get the choice to choose (as in we have the will to accept God's gift of grace), I don't see how the above two lines support each other because they actually contradict.

You say that what everybody will choose does not matter. It does not have to be the case. God created our world. And He somehow can be outside of our world and also outside of our time. So God can look into our past as well as our future. So, He may have looked to our future, see what everybody will choose and then say which people are 'predestined'.

[neo-x]

You say that what everybody will choose does not matter. It does not have to be the case. God created our world. And He somehow can be outside of our world and also outside of our time. So God can look into our past as well as our future. So, He may have looked to our future, see what everybody will choose and then say which people are 'predestined'.

I have no problem with this Hana, but when it comes with the idea that some people are saved and some are not and that the choice is not that open as it sounds, then I can't really digest that. Because if you agree with me then I rally don't think predestination is an issue neither is omniscience. this only becomes an issue when one is considered absolute and the other obsolete.

[1over137]

I have no problem with this Hana, but when it comes with the idea that some people are saved and some are not and that the choice is not that open as it sounds, then I can't really digest that. Because if you agree with me then I rally don't think predestination is an issue neither is omniscience. this only becomes an issue when one is considered absolute and the other obsolete.

People did choices in their future. (Or is this nonsense?) Some wanted to rebel and some wanted to obey. God knows who wanted to rebel and who wanted to obey. Chosen people are those who were obeying God. I believe that God's looking into the future and then back is not destroying course of events.
Now, we are free to do choices. We were free to do the choices in the future.

[neo-x]

1over137 on Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:43 pm

neo-x wrote:
I have no problem with this Hana, but when it comes with the idea that some people are saved and some are not and that the choice is not that open as it sounds, then I can't really digest that. Because if you agree with me then I rally don't think predestination is an issue neither is omniscience. this only becomes an issue when one is considered absolute and the other obsolete.


People did choices in their future. (Or is this nonsense?) Some wanted to rebel and some wanted to obey. God knows who wanted to rebel and who wanted to obey. Chosen people are those who were obeying God. I believe that God's looking into the future and then back is not destroying course of events.
Now, we are free to do choices. We were free to do the choices in the future.

Okay, I have nothing against this idea. (nothing is nonsense, it is a great disscussion ) but the very idea of God knowing future events, to me, makes the future concrete, this thread initially is full of my posts on this point and I certainly will not like to repeat that. Perhaps you can read my initial posts.

my question

Those who are obeying now will not be consistent forever, if they choose(sin is a choice) to disobey later, since I assume that you would agree with me that people can be disobedient and certainly can walk away from God and back into their worldly lives, then aren't those who are chosen now, will not remain chosen? and if so then what is the point of choosing ahead like this if this can change? I mean this makes predestination almost a joke. What is predestination, if it gets changed later?

you see my point?

[1over137]

Those who are obeying now will not be consistent forever, if they choose(sin is a choice) to disobey later, since I assume that you would agree with me that people can be disobedient and certainly can walk away from God and back into their worldly lives, then aren't those who are chosen now, will not remain chosen? and if so then what is the point of choosing ahead like this if this can change? I mean this makes predestination almost a joke. What is predestination, if it gets changed later?
you see my point?

So, you think on those people who once where believers (obeying) and then they decided to not believe (not obey). I do not see a problem here since God chooses after the person's death (death in the future). If the person died in the future as a nonbeliever then the person is not chosen. If the person died as a believer then the person is chosen. So predestination does not get changed.

[CeT-To]

God predestines who will be saved, and we must choose Christ in order to be saved. Based on what is said above, God knows what everybody will choose.

The problem is, if God predestines who will be saved then what everybody will choose doesn't matter, Hana. Unless we say that God has predestined that everyone be saved and we get the choice to choose (as in we have the will to accept God's gift of grace), I don't see how the above two lines support each other because they actually contradict.

You say that what everybody will choose does not matter. It does not have to be the case. God created our world. And He somehow can be outside of our world and also outside of our time. So God can look into our past as well as our future. So, He may have looked to our future, see what everybody will choose and then say which people are 'predestined'.

Hmm this doesn't make sense, once God created something God entered into a temporal state. It doesn't make sense at all to say that God is outside time and he looks into our past and future because if that was true then Jesus is still there at the cross somewhat 2000 years ago still existing in the past yet also existing in the future in heaven with God right now, yet that's a contradiction. The fact is that the past does not exist any more and the future is potentiality - God knows but he isn't outside time and doesn't need to be, certainly he knew as well when he was in the timeless state the end from the beginning just as much as he does now.

You get what i'm saying ?

God bless

[1over137]

I rather will not speculate any further.

[DannyM]

He is saying we should cease discussion because it is of no value (not because it is difficult).

Thank you.

For me this thread was of some value and it haven;t ruined me at all.

Of course it is of value.

[DannyM]

Hmm this doesn't make sense, once God created something God entered into a temporal state. It doesn't make sense at all to say that God is outside time and he looks into our past and future because if that was true then Jesus is still there at the cross somewhat 2000 years ago still existing in the past yet also existing in the future in heaven with God right now, yet that's a contradiction. The fact is that the past does not exist any more and the future is potentiality - God knows but he isn't outside time and doesn't need to be, certainly he knew as well when he was in the timeless state the end from the beginning just as much as he does now.

God is certainly outside of time in the sense that He is not constrained by time. I agree that the past is not occuring as we speak, any more than the future is occuring as we speak.

[DannyM]

Brother neo!

Crikey, when you come back you come back in force! I've put your post in a word doc, and will get on it tomorrow night. I just want to float about tonight, taking it easy

God bless, Bro

[neo-x]

Brother neo!

Crikey, when you come back you come back in force! I've put your post in a word doc, and will get on it tomorrow night. I just want to float about tonight, taking it easy

God bless, Bro

It's all cool bro , always a pleasure talking to you.

God bless you too.

[CeT-To]

God is certainly outside of time in the sense that He is not constrained by time. I agree that the past is not occuring as we speak, any more than the future is occuring as we speak.

Maybe you could explain what you mean by that, Danny. In what sense would he be constrained by time? Time doesn't necessarily mean erosion, i think that it might apply to our universe as such but there are no physical or entropy laws outside the universe. But yeah explain

[domokunrox]

WLC view is the view I agree with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQElhE_ ... ata_player