Water baptism/split from free will predestination thread

[domokunrox]

Dom,
My advice to you as well, would be to read, excpet doing it while rightly dividing the word of truth. The text you supplied says clearly that the gentiles has ALREADY recieved. Yes or no? Peter's order to baptize was to confirm to the Jews what was happening. If you know anything about how Jews perceived the Gentiles. In fact it is right in the context of Acts itself. Cornelius? Peter's vision?

jlay, this is precisely correct. Was the holy spirit there? Did it fall upon them? Absolutely! The holy spirit must be present. BUT did it enter the heart of those men? Did they repent? Who did they confess is their Lord and savior? Do they affirm the cross? Will they allow the person they used to be to die? Was the sinner sent to his grave? Where? What kind burial is this?

For example. If you go the water source, of course water is there! BUT is it IN YOU! Did you TAKE IT IN? How do you TAKE IT IN?

I have studied Acts extensively. Contrast this with Paul's writing in Romans 6:1-11

1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7for he who has died is freed from sin.
8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

IMHO:
We should not get baptized unless we believe that Christ is the son of God, that He is our lord and saviour, that he died and was ressurected and will come again.
I think we all agree on that, yes?

Oh my! Yes! Agreed!

Lets flip that over to its logical opposite.

If you do NOT get baptized, you don't believe that Christ is the son of God, you don't believe he is your lord and savior, and you don't believe he died and resurrected. You don't believe he will come again.

As per Paul , only a believer that has had this truth revealed to them by the HS can say that ( that are sealed by the HS).
It seems to me that the HS comes upon us BEFORE we can freely say that Christ is Lord.
The coming of the HS and our accepting of Christ is one in the same, it happens at the same time.
All those that confess that Christ is lord, do so because they have the HS ( 1John I believe).
The baptisim is the symbolic washing away of sins, what we choose to do AFTER we are sealed by the HS and believe and profess that Christ is Lord.

and here I was let down....symbolic? *sigh* Was Naaman's washing 7 times symbolic, too? Or was it obedience? No one has answered this.



Danny, James 2 puts the knife to jugular vein of "saved by grace alone", "saved by faith alone", "to the glory of God alone". Christianity is not a series of islands.
I had no doubt at all that your Calvinist beliefs were going to reject it in the manner you did.
If there is no obedience or work to show, there is no reason to believe your faith is authentic. Jesus said to carry your cross and follow me.

Lets contrast that against Galatians 6:2-5

2 Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another. 5 For each one will bear his own load.

Btw, look this up before you guys start telling me I'm outnumbered here, therefore wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

August, don't be offended. I can say the same thing right back at you. Ad populum is a fallacy.

We all have to asks ourselves here. Are we going to be politically correct or are we going to tolerate each other peacefully?
There are 3 major enemies of Christianity today. Relativism, pluralism, and naturalism. There is no exception to where the enemies of the church are. You start off by examining yourself. We're not perfect, and the battle between holy spirit and the flesh is every day.

Zach, I'm not avoiding you. Your posts are really loaded, and I like them a lot, actually. But its still really loaded.

That should be it for now. I woke up, and I have to start my day. God bless.

[RickD]

PaulSacramento wrote:IMHO:
We should not get baptized unless we believe that Christ is the son of God, that He is our lord and saviour, that he died and was ressurected and will come again.
I think we all agree on that, yes?

Oh my! Yes! Agreed!

Lets flip that over to its logical opposite.

If you do NOT get baptized, you don't believe that Christ is the son of God, you don't believe he is your lord and savior, and you don't believe he died and resurrected. You don't believe he will come again.

Paul, Paul, Paul
Logical opposite? I did not get baptized in water, but I do believe that Christ is the son of God, I do believe He is my Lord and Savior, and I do believe He died and resurrected. And yes, I believe He will come again.

and here I was let down....symbolic? *sigh* Was Naaman's washing 7 times symbolic, too? Or was it obedience? No one has answered this.

Why can't it be both?

Danny, James 2 puts the knife to jugular vein of "saved by grace alone", "saved by faith alone", "to the glory of God alone". Christianity is not a series of islands.
I had no doubt at all that your Calvinist beliefs were going to reject it in the manner you did.
If there is no obedience or work to show, there is no reason to believe your faith is authentic. Jesus said to carry your cross and follow me.

Lets contrast that against Galatians 6:2-5

2 Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another. 5 For each one will bear his own load.

Paul, I'm not a Calvinist, but I believe in "saved by grace alone", "saved by faith alone", "to the glory of God alone". So disagreeing with you, isn't limited to those who hold to Calvinism.

Btw, look this up before you guys start telling me I'm outnumbered here, therefore wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

We aren't saying you are wrong because we all believe you are wrong, Paul. We are saying the propagating of what is perceived to be heresy by a large majority of Christianity can confuse and mislead many Christians and raise additional points of contention with non-believers, and as such is not welcome here. That is a guideline of this forum, that is a private Christian forum, that the volunteer moderators here, have been given the authority to enforce.

We all have to asks ourselves here. Are we going to be politically correct or are we going to tolerate each other peacefully?
There are 3 major enemies of Christianity today. Relativism, pluralism, and naturalism. There is no exception to where the enemies of the church are. You start off by examining yourself. We're not perfect, and the battle between holy spirit and the flesh is every day.

Paul, the first thing I do when I hold a position or belief that every other Christian debating with me disagrees with, is I go to the Lord about it. I ask Him to show me if what everyone else is saying, has any merit. We, as Christians, need to know when to humble ourselves before God, and seek His guidance, when other Christians say what we believe is heresy. I see no indication that you are heeding our correction, and praying for God's leading on this.

[August]

Btw, look this up before you guys start telling me I'm outnumbered here, therefore wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

August, don't be offended. I can say the same thing right back at you. Ad populum is a fallacy.

We all have to asks ourselves here. Are we going to be politically correct or are we going to tolerate each other peacefully?

No, this is not fallacious at all. The majority of Christian churches regard baptismal regeneration as heretical, based on sound exegesis, scholarship and the fact that it is a work-based salvation, not because it is an uninformed, bandwagon or emotional opinion.

Also, I am indeed offended when the gospel is mangled, my Lord is delegated to a bystander of the salvation process, and His atonement depends on something man has to do to become effective. My God is not a pathetic little weasel trying to woo me into salvation through my own broken and useless efforts, He is a God of grace that has gifted me faith and the presence of His Spirit in me through His grace, and that grace and faith are all I, and anyone else who are to be saved, needs.

[Canuckster1127]

Makes perfect sense to me ... The same Jesus who chastised the pharisees for their focus upon forms while ignoring the substance behind them, has now turned into a pharisee himself, and is more concerned with a symbolic ceremony than He is what it symbolizes in a person's heart.

Legalism is alive and well along with Phariseeism. Only now, the same heart and attitude calls itself Christian instead of Jewish.

Col 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. 19 They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

[neo-x]

Dom, I think no one here undermines Baptism for the sake of it. Jesus was baptised, so were the early church believers and so on and so forth. Paul himself baptised some people. I think Baptism is a beautiful act of faith in Christ and the powerful symbolism it holds. I was water baptised myself and I can say it is a wonderful experience when done with faith and commitment. But I can also tell you that it took me two years after being water baptised that I had the baptism of the spirit and in all honesty, that was when I really saw the change. The baptism of water holds the picture of us buried in Christ and risen up again. But it does nothing else then to proclaim your faith in a public ceremony, and even that is not something bad at all.

On all these things, I agree with you and I think most of us will no doubt agree to the beauty of baptism. All I am saying and the others are saying is that it is not an essential to salvation. In the sense that if one does not take part in baptism, he does not believe in Christ and does not have the Holy spirit dwell in him, as you say.

If you do NOT get baptized, you don't believe that Christ is the son of God, you don't believe he is your lord and savior, and you don't believe he died and resurrected. You don't believe he will come again.

This is what baffles me. I don't think it is the baptism of water that makes you eligible for the Holy spirit, but the blood of Christ, his grace and his atonement. With faith we can accept that. Baptism of water shows that we are cleansed but in the body. But baptism of the Holy spirit, does not requires our body to be cleansed rather our spirits. The spirit of God is holy and the atonement of Christ makes us a new being and the Holy spirit then resides with us.

Also Dom, we all don't believe the same thing here, I mean we disagree on a lot of issues here. So it is not like we are ganging up on you.

and here I was let down....symbolic? *sigh* Was Naaman's washing 7 times symbolic, too? Or was it obedience? No one has answered this.

Yes, but obedience had nothing to do with the water. I think the water baptism was a shoadow of the substance that was to come, that is the Holyspirit. When
John the prophet said Luke 3:16

John answered them all, "I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

we have two baptisms in the above verse, now consider this Eph 4:4-5

For there is one body and one Spirit, just as you have been called to one glorious hope for the future. There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism,...

Dom, which baptism is Paul talking about here, water or spirit? The context tells me, he is talking about the spirit.

You start off by examining yourself. We're not perfect, and the battle between holy spirit and the flesh is every day.

Dom, I think this is something we all should do. Me, you, everyone, nothing wrong with that. But let us take measure or the flesh may take over more than the spirit.

If someone feels conviction in his heart for water baptism, he should not hold back, he should go and take part in this beautiful righteous act. That the Lord himself took, in his everlasting words ..."Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness..."

But the way you are going about it, is wrong, Dom. Obedience should be with the conviction and consent of heart, NOT FEAR. You keep saying "don't risk it, guys". Why do you think someone should be baptised? just to be on the safe side? You are looking ta grace from the wrong side. Don't you think there should be a conviction to be baptised rather than fear, that if you don't you might end up in hell?

This is the type of statements that atheists always have fun picking up and then mocking hundreds of thousands of people as idiots, religious robots and so on and so forth (not that I give a damn about the mockery of atheism). I am saying that we should have the love to follow God, not fear of hell. That is the wrong way to understand baptism. This is not a religion, made up of a bunch of rituals as most people say. Unless our rituals carry substance, it is for nothing, Dom. If I pick up this attitude, I won't love God, I'll fear him for putting me in hell. Do you agree with me? Obedience in Christianity is not something that can be enforced with out will and faith. "For what is without faith, is sin." If I take the baptism on your advise, just to be safe, not risking it. Do you really think it would have any value before God?

John 1:12-13 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
where does it say water baptism? To be born of God means to have the spirit of God in you, Dom.

Now please see this, lets say, I am a minister, I was never baptised. I am almost 60 years of age and I have prayed over thousands of people in over 40 years of ministry, I have had spiritual battles, I have fought the world with my faith and the word of God, I manifested the fruits of the spirits and the gifts of them. I am happy in my Lord, I am delighted in the word. I love God and my fellow men. I share the joys of other and I weep for people in my prayer and now you come, all good and great and you tell me.

You: "Hey, did you get water baptised?"

Me: "No, son."

You: "Well, you should?"

me: "Why should I?"

You: "Because only then will you get the Holy spirit in you."

me: "But I already have the Holy spirit in me."

You: "Nah! I think you have deluded yourself. You never had the Holy spirit."

me: "But what about the fruits of the spirit that God gave me through his grace?"

You: "Sorry, anyone can do good works."

me: "What about the gifts of the spirit, the healing and the miracles, the tongues and the prayers, that God performed through out my ministry"

You: "I'm afraid they are fake, you know people claiming miracles can also go to hell, you remember Jesus said that right?"

me: "But what about my love that God put in me, son?"

You: "I'm afraid even an atheist can qualify on that criteria."

me: "But what about that peace, I had in me when I received Christ. in all those years it carried me through the worst of my times. It comforted me when I was
alone and in trouble and it made me profess my faith to thousands of people and they repented."

You "That's just self satisfaction, and a bit of blind luck with some charismatic speeches."

Me: "But what about the time, when they put up a gun to my head and told me to renounce my faith in my lord and I didn't."

You: "That's the kicker pops, you never had faith in Christ in the first place."

me: "But I know, God has forgiven me sins, son."

You: "I don't think that ever happened"

me: "so you think that a sinner can do all forty years of ministry, risk his life for Christ, pray for thousands of people, love God and love their neighbours, put his faith in God in the most dire of circumstances with the Lord pulling me through, be gentle and good and humble, be god fearing and loving and all of this goes to trash can, if I never got water baptised?"

You: "YES"

I can assure you this is the only reaction you can get out of all of this.

So please Dom, lets be tolerant here and discuss like brothers. I can assure you, no one is against you, neither there is a conspiracy against you. Please if you would like to disagree then please, by all means do so but there is no need for judgements and ad hominems As if all are against your opinion, doesn't make us right, then also you being alone doesn't make you right either. We can agree to disagree but we can all get along fine.

@ Rick

We are saying the propagating of what is perceived to be heresy by a large majority of Christianity can confuse and mislead many Christians and raise additional points of contention with non-believers, and as such is not welcome here. That is a guideline of this forum, that is a private Christian forum, that the volunteer moderators here, have been given the authority to enforce...

...I can lock the thread, if you won't participate in the discussion, by answering the questions posed to you.

Rick, as a brother and member, I would say that locking another thread is not much of a help. This creates a lots of problems, wasted time and posts. Plus it projects a very wrong impression - we lock threads that are against out personal beliefs. So I would say, this would not a be a very nice move. If Dom, does not want to answer he will eventually, not. And I don't think it is any more heresy then what millions like Dom, believe. It is open discussion forum, lets make sure it stays that way. I mean we have had atheists here who were rude and dumb and arrogant, if we can accommodate them, then Dom is a brother in Christ to begin with. If what he is saying is heresy then we can provide ample proof to negate him through scriptures. Just because he propagates differently, does not mean we start locking down threads. Plus we are not here to correct people, lets discuss and debate as Christians and brothers in Christ.

[domokunrox]

Paul, Paul, Paul
Logical opposite? I did not get baptized in water, but I do believe that Christ is the son of God, I do believe He is my Lord and Savior, and I do believe He died and resurrected. And yes, I believe He will come again.

Rick, Rick, Rick. If you believe all that, why would you refuse the water baptism? Is it because you want it YOUR way or God's way?

Why can't it be both?

Because its inconsistant. That would be embracing a pluralistic salvation position.
The truth is narrow, exclusive, and absolute

Matthew 7:13-14

13“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14“For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Paul, I'm not a Calvinist, but I believe in "saved by grace alone", "saved by faith alone", "to the glory of God alone". So disagreeing with you, isn't limited to those who hold to Calvinism.

Its not limited to Calvinism alone. Calvinism is simply the easiest target. It seems like we're all sort of polarized so far on Calvinism here. Some think its Biblically sound, others not at all. You can put me in the not at all column. To me, it portraits God sort of like fundamental Islam except "faith alone" instead of "works alone"

We aren't saying you are wrong because we all believe you are wrong, Paul. We are saying the propagating of what is perceived to be heresy by a large majority of Christianity can confuse and mislead many Christians and raise additional points of contention with non-believers, and as such is not welcome here. That is a guideline of this forum, that is a private Christian forum, that the volunteer moderators here, have been given the authority to enforce.

Again, James 2

14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

18But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

If you say this is false. Thats heresy. I'm not about to just sit here and say nothing. If you love God, you wouldn't, either. Someone saying this is false is mistaken. I'm not saying you all need to take everything you own and give it all out to the poor or needy. The lesson it is teaching you is that faith without work, isn't faith. It has no faith. Its very simple, guys. God has extended grace, compassion, and love.

Paul, the first thing I do when I hold a position or belief that every other Christian debating with me disagrees with, is I go to the Lord about it. I ask Him to show me if what everyone else is saying, has any merit. We, as Christians, need to know when to humble ourselves before God, and seek His guidance, when other Christians say what we believe is heresy. I see no indication that you are heeding our correction, and praying for God's leading on this.

I do the same, Rick. Test the spirit.

1 John 4

1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. 4 You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. 5 They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

I like all you guys even if we disagree. Especially you, Neo. You give great insight, great thoughts, and very understanding. But God bless you all. I gotta get ready for work.

[DannyM]

Danny, James 2 puts the knife to jugular vein of "saved by grace alone", "saved by faith alone", "to the glory of God alone". Christianity is not a series of islands.

No it doesn’t. I’ve already shown you why; you chose to ignore my explanation. I won’t explain again.

I had no doubt at all that your Calvinist beliefs were going to reject it in the manner you did.

Have you any kind of a clue, Dom? Do you realise that faith-alone proponents covers practically the whole of Protestantism? And did you know that many Catholics hold to faith-alone?

You also talk about my “Calvinist beliefs”, as if they have a mind all of their own - careful those nasty Calvinist beliefs don’t sprout legs and arms and pick up a calving knife, eh?

If there is no obedience or work to show, there is no reason to believe your faith is authentic.

And? Who made you judge and jury? What has this to do with salvation and a ‘lost’ salvation? Go back to James, Dom, and give me your exegesis.

Jesus said to carry your cross and follow me.

Oh no!! You’ve got high hopes, my friend.

Lets contrast that against Galatians 6:2-5

2 Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another. 5 For each one will bear his own load.

LOL. Okay.

1. What has this to do with salvation by water baptism?
2. How is this a blow to faith-alone?
3. What do YOU think the texts actually says?

[domokunrox]

Danny, having faith requires obidence and the work follows. The bottom line of your explanation is that its not a possibility anymore. That's just foolish. Feel free to tell me faith alone is the only thing on your island and that its all you need. Its not lost on me how absurd that is.

I don't think you truly understand protestant reform. The Catholic church does not view us the same way as they did before. It goes to show that they concede that we have something going here. Its not that Christianity needs to adjust, that's absurd. Christianity that adjusts is pluralistic in its nature, conforms to political correctness in our now diverse climate, and ultimately has the mission that doctrine takes a backseat to everything else. What the reformed church really wanted was to have a real mission locally and independently and do REAL WORK for Christianity, AND do so without sacrificing proper doctrine. It certainly is a difficult prospect building that from the ground up.

The Catholic church should have been supportive, instead they were oppressive. It polarized theology so much that abberent Christianity was going to be and IS as extreme as is today. It could have been better handled. Instead it kept this US and THEM attitude and this attitude was going to be rampant.

Its clearly evident that this was going to do damage to the world in every aspect now. Failing to realize that what unites us is Christ, not what apostle's teaching we liked more.

That's all I have to say right now.

[Byblos]

Danny, having faith requires obidence and the work follows. The bottom line of your explanation is that its not a possibility anymore. That's just foolish. Feel free to tell me faith alone is the only thing on your island and that its all you need. Its not lost on me how absurd that is.

I don't think you truly understand protestant reform. The Catholic church does not view us the same way as they did before. It goes to show that they concede that we have something going here. Its not that Christianity needs to adjust, that's absurd. Christianity that adjusts is pluralistic in its nature, conforms to political correctness in our now diverse climate, and ultimately has the mission that doctrine takes a backseat to everything else. What the reformed church really wanted was to have a real mission locally and independently and do REAL WORK for Christianity, AND do so without sacrificing proper doctrine. It certainly is a difficult prospect building that from the ground up.

The Catholic church should have been supportive, instead they were oppressive. It polarized theology so much that abberent Christianity was going to be and IS as extreme as is today. It could have been better handled. Instead it kept this US and THEM attitude and this attitude was going to be rampant.

Its clearly evident that this was going to do damage to the world in every aspect now. Failing to realize that what unites us is Christ, not what apostle's teaching we liked more.

That's all I have to say right now.

Wow Dom, if you spent a fraction of the time answering questions instead of pontificating (pardon the pun) we would have gotten somewhere by now. You have a number of objections to address Dom, I suggest you go back and address them.

[RickD]

Rick, as a brother and member, I would say that locking another thread is not much of a help. This creates a lots of problems, wasted time and posts. Plus it projects a very wrong impression - we lock threads that are against out personal beliefs.

Neo, I would never lock a thread because someone said something that I don't believe in. The only reason why I would lock this thread, would be because this thread gets to the point where it's not being fruitful. Certain people may not be allowed to participate, if they don't properly participate in the thread. When one holds to a position, that every other Christian posting, disagrees with, and refuses to address the plethora of questions posed to him, he is no longer participating properly in the discussion.

[RickD]

14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

18But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”


If you say this is false. Thats heresy. I'm not about to just sit here and say nothing. If you love God, you wouldn't, either. Someone saying this is false is mistaken. I'm not saying you all need to take everything you own and give it all out to the poor or needy. The lesson it is teaching you is that faith without work, isn't faith. It has no faith. Its very simple, guys. God has extended grace, compassion, and love.

Who's saying that those verses in James are false? I'm certainly not. No one here is claiming we should have faith without works, Paul. The works, and fruit that James is talking about, are done by a Christian, as a result of the transforming power of the Holy Spirit. After God has saved us. The works aren't performed to gain or keep salvation, though. That would be a works based faith, Paul.

[zacchaeus]

Am I to assume this is how it works...

Formula or method for salvation:
1)God calls (Predestination)
2)conscience/accountability
3)Quickened, we answer (Freewill), repent
a. believe
4)Must get "water baptized"
a.Receive the Holy Spirit
b.SALVATION
c.We are saved
5)Sealed FOREVER

...sort of makes Christ look like He's not enough and what He did on the Cross; pointless.

Guess it "does" as oppose to doesn't matter between Jew and Gentile, circumcised or uncircumcised, baptized with water or unbaptized with water. I guess all the scriptures on this are quite needless. Must be a Jew to be saved in that case; I'm screwed.

...and just how do you know you have the HOLY SPIRIT? Is that the evidence of speaking in tongues... I've never spoke in tongues either; I'm screwed.

I've believed in God since I was a baby, I was christened with the sprinkling of the head in Catholic church when I was a baby, I was baptized when I was like 5 or 6 in a baptist church; do I believe I was saved, do I believe I had the Holy Spirit? Nope and nope, although I believed in my heart and was baptized, but that would mean according to you all after baptism I received the Holy Spirit and I was sealed forever... but according to the life I've lived and the fruit I've bared up until 3yrs ago, I'd disagree. Yet there was a time where I believed in my heart yet again, but I strayed away from my faith and lived in utter darkness and complete disobedience (SIN). Spiritually I was dead. Jesus said you will know them by their fruit, period!!! John 3:16 says whoever believes will be saved!!! Again, not all the steps above and def no water baptism, that all it takes is to believe, not as a past event as in once upon a time, but to continue to believe... If we are sealed forever then we can do whatever, and this is just not the case Gal 5:19-21. So I believed, I was saved, no water baptism, but I strayed away, and then I wasn't saved. But either way I suppose I'm not saved at all, at least not until I get a water baptism.

[RickD]

Zacchaeus, just because a true Christian "strays from the faith", that doesn't mean he isn't sealed with the Holy Spirit. A true believer, who is sealed forever in Christ, may stray from God. But, God will always pull that true believer back to Himself(to God). We as believers can't put off our sinful nature, as long as we are in this temporary creation. Our sinful nature will always be at war, with the Spirit of God inside us. Many of us have strayed from God, at certain periods in our lives. But the true child of God, has God's promise, that God will never leave us.

[DannyM]

Danny, having faith requires obidence and the work follows. The bottom line of your explanation is that its not a possibility anymore. That's just foolish.

When did anyone ever suggest otherwise? Obedience and work come with faith. Obedience and work do not save. My explanation is sound, thank you very much. It’s your comprehension skills that need work.

Feel free to tell me faith alone is the only thing on your island and that its all you need. Its not lost on me how absurd that is.

Aunt Sally time!

I don't think you truly understand protestant reform.

I’ve been immersed in Protestantism one way or another for most of my adult life, Dom. I certainly don’t know it all, but please try not to presume to tell me I do not understand Protestantism.

The Catholic church does not view us the same way as they did before. It goes to show that they concede that we have something going here. Its not that Christianity needs to adjust, that's absurd. Christianity that adjusts is pluralistic in its nature, conforms to political correctness in our now diverse climate, and ultimately has the mission that doctrine takes a backseat to everything else. What the reformed church really wanted was to have a real mission locally and independently and do REAL WORK for Christianity, AND do so without sacrificing proper doctrine. It certainly is a difficult prospect building that from the ground up.

The Catholic church should have been supportive, instead they were oppressive. It polarized theology so much that abberent Christianity was going to be and IS as extreme as is today. It could have been better handled. Instead it kept this US and THEM attitude and this attitude was going to be rampant.

Dom, I wouldn't dismiss 1700 years of Catholicism so readily if I were you. At least not without acknowledging some of its achievements for Christendom and its great theologians of the past.

Now, back to your duties, which are stacking up here, Dom. You have objections outstanding from other posters on this thread. Please show them the courtesy of addressing their points.

God bless

[Byblos]

Dom, I wouldn't dismiss 1700 years of Catholicism so readily if I were you. At least not without acknowledging some of its achievements for Christendom and its great theologians of the past.

You missed about 278 years but I won't argue semantics.