Can God Ever Have An Original Thought?

[neo-x]

So are you saying GOD caused Hitler to sin?; That GOD caused the slaughter of 6 million of His chosen race?; That GOD desired the unthinkable abominations, evils and massive suffering caused by the Nazis? Our Holy God, Who hates sin? Wow!

lol, no, philip...read the full post before accusing me of this

Predestination implies God's will, as in prophecies. For example, what you are saying can be perused to really absurd conclusions. For example, was the Holocaust predestined?

You can say it was, based on Hitler's decision which God knew. Technically it would be just omniscience to God, not predestination. predestination would mean, God designed Hitler to be like this and so he went and ultimately God was responsible for the Holocaust. So the definition of predestination you are using is not whole, as I showed you above. Predestination is bigger then our choices, Rick. or else what is predestination if it is not designed by God.

This is in reply to Rick's post that says that God foresees our actions in the future and then that is predestination. I said, following this line of thought people can accuse God directly of evil. I don't think God predestined the Holocaust at all. It was man and the evil that resides in his heart. God may know about it but he certainly never planned it. Predestination implies God's will, not just knowledge.

But this is what I get if I pursue what Rick stated and didn't you see the word I have highlighted now. It is an absurd conclusion, I already said that. Please read carefully. Thank you

[CeT-To]

Not going to answer my post Neo ?

[neo-x]

CeT-To » Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:49 pm

Not going to answer my post Neo ?

You ain't getting away... was just caught up in all posts and I'm in my office...lol...go figure, How I'm typing Don't want my boss to jump on me while I'm scratching my brains...lol

Okay lets back track a little, God's will comes from his desire which comes from his nature/character which is 'the Good'. how does God get his will done perfectly? By knowing everything that could possibly happen (Omniscience) and by choosing to make one of those possible realities into an actual reality ( Omniscience + Predestination). God can't choose to make his perfect will happen ( predestination) without knowing everything possible ( omniscience) it logically follows. So how does God predestine without interfering with creatures who are endowed by free will? By placing certain people in a certain place and a certain time( plus God choosing specific times to intervene) where in the end through the creatures free will they actualise the greatest amount of possible people saved. This hinged on the fact that there is NO such possible reality where everyone is saved.

Well you see here is my problem, not all events are predestined in the sense that predestination + omniscience works together with human free will. As I asked, was the flood of Noah predestined with human choices, Was the Holocaust, predestined with human choices, was the birth of Jesus predestined with human choices, was his crucifixion? and what about him being slain before the foundations of earth for us. Did that involve or even ask Human choice. Because here is a big difference in the line of thinking here. I think predestination overrides human choice, it does not depend on it. As oppose to what you hold that God does predestination with the creatures intent, known to him via omniscience, without interfering. I think there are events, predestined by God that require no future knowledge of our actions to complete or initiate and thus are not valid for your explanation above, and therefore those events can not be changed by us or altered or even affected by our choices, they simply are not required for these cases.

or if not the above, then by what you wrote, it means,

The flood of Noah was predestined, since God knew every outcome by omniscience, with the creatures intent of course since they all rebelled except Noah. But it was predestined, means bound to happen and thus the creatures could not have done otherwise. I am sorry but this is what predestination is, Cet-to.

same is the conclusion with the Holocaust, if what you say is right, then following it, I conclude, that since God knew before hand what Hitler will do he predestined it with the choices of people living in that time with his omniscience and therefore for the "greater good" which is not conceivable to us at the moment, he MADE it happen, so that the end choice would have the most people saved.

I am sure these absurd conclusions are not what you meant. I am pretty sure of that. But I can not see any other way to translate what you wrote in these scenarios.

Simple fact- Predestination = willed by God, independent of human choices. I do not agree with your theory of predestination.

[Widge]

My small group was recently discussing characteristics of God, of His standing outside of time, how the distant future is to Him as is yesterday. I made the statement that "God has never had an ORIGINAL thought." And, for a moment, everyone looked at me with a strange, worried ("that's heretical" type of) look. My contention is that as God is ALL-knowing, then there can be absolutely NOTHING that He also hasn't ALWAYS known about - including ALL of His own "future" thoughts and actions. God, even in His unfathomable complexity, is ultimately a "simple" being, in that He simply IS, always HAS BEEN, and ALWAYS has known ALL. God can never have an idea that is new to even HIMSELF. God cannot surprise Himself.

I'd say that all scriptures indicating that God has "changed" His mind or course of action, that these supposed mind "changing" episodes were merely God's reactions, based upon man and His actions (sin or obedience, etc.), albeit are enacted by Him within OUR real-time. But all places in scripture in which God "changed" His mind, that He always knew EVERY course of action He would undertake, how they would "change," what humans would do, and accordingly, precisely how and when He would react to us as we live in OUR allotted earth times and places.

Do you not agree? Any thoughts out there about this?

Yes as he created all so he does have original thouights

[Philip]

Yes as he created all so he does have original thoughts

The only way you could say God has original thoughts is that if ALL of the thoughts He EVER HAD or WOULD have are also considered original ones - as God is ALL-knowing, then ALL of His thoughts must be SIMULTANEOUS. He can't know something later that He hasn't ALWAYS known. His ACTIONS can have a sequence, but ALL of His THOUGHTS must be simultaneous. The idea of God having an "original" thought implies that He can have a thought of which He didn't previously, fully and ALWAYS know about. This is why God is complete in Himself, and in His perfection lacks nothing.

[RickD]

No, Rick. You completely missed my point. when I say predestination, I mean, plans hard set in concrete, can not change, whatsoever, designed by God, not by our will. That would be just knowledge to God, if he knows what we will do. But predestined events are bound to happen, anyway.

No neo, I didn't miss you point. You posted this:

So please guys, lets define these

So, I defined predestination, with my McDonalds example, just like you posted what you believe predestination is.

That is the difference here, predestination is, God willed something to happen, he just didn't know it. He wanted it.

neo, you are aware, that not every Christian agrees with the Calvinist definition of predestination? I'm certainly not the first person that differs with Calvinism on this.

Was the lamb of God, who was slain before the foundations of the earth were ever laid down, slain because God saw in the future and saw that he will be accepted by 12 apostles, just that, nothing else. This is just info, not predestination, Rick. This is God's redemptive plan, regardless of human will. Did man ever willed God to send his son? No. This was initiated by God, totally independent of human choices.

I agree with that, neo. That's a different kind of God's" will."

I am talking about predestination apart from our choices. what about prophecies which are hard set. I am not talking about predestination of our actions. choice and predestination doesn't coincide. You are looking at it from the opposite side. You are tracing predestination, from your action and backwards. I am not saying this at all.

Under your definition of "predestination", choice and predestination don't coincide. Under the definition I hold, sometimes our choices do coincide.

Predestination can exist without human will and intent.

I agree. With the emphasis on "can exist". It can exist without human will and intent, but predestination doesn't always exist without human choices.

btw. simply put, these are two different things, if something is predestined, it is predestined, your choice or my choice does not matter at all.

Neo, that's how you see it under your idea of predestination. It's not as simply put, as you make it. Many people disagree with your definition. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that it's open to interpretation.

Was Jesus predestined to be born? according to your definition, its because God saw Mary in the future saying yes to the angel, that's it.

That's misrepresenting my definition, neo. I'm not saying the only reason why Jesus was predestined to be born, was because God foreknew what Mary would do. But foreknowledge is a part of predestination.

God''s big plans are not set by looking into the future at human responses. His plans are not our plans, rick. Jesus would be born, whether someone wanted it or not. so the prophecies could be fulfilled.

I agree with that.

Predestination implies God's will, as in prophecies. For example, what you are saying can be perused to really absurd conclusions. For example, was the Holocaust predestined?

I don't see limiting predestination to prophecies. Did God, who is outside of time, know the holocaust was going to happen? Yes. If God knows, for a fact, that something will happen, then it is absolutely going to happen. Therefore; predestination.

You can say it was, based on Hitler's decision which God knew. Technically it would be just omniscience to God, not predestination. predestination would mean, God designed Hitler to be like this and so he went and ultimately God was responsible for the Holocaust. So the definition of predestination you are using is not whole, as I showed you above. Predestination is bigger then our choices, Rick. or else what is predestination if it is not designed by God.

I see what you're saying, neo. And in certain instances, I agree with you. But in others, I don't. Like I don't agree with this, from Calvinism, as I've said before:

Unconditional Election is the doctrine which states that God chose those whom he was pleased to bring to a knowledge of himself, not based upon any merit shown by the object of his grace and not based upon his looking forward to discover who would "accept" the offer of the gospel. God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and others for damnation (Romans 9:15,21). He has done this act before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4-8).

For reference:http://new.gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/sermons/58/

[CeT-To]

CeT-To » Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:49 pm

Not going to answer my post Neo ?

You ain't getting away... was just caught up in all posts and I'm in my office...lol...go figure, How I'm typing Don't want my boss to jump on me while I'm scratching my brains...lol

Okay lets back track a little, God's will comes from his desire which comes from his nature/character which is 'the Good'. how does God get his will done perfectly? By knowing everything that could possibly happen (Omniscience) and by choosing to make one of those possible realities into an actual reality ( Omniscience + Predestination). God can't choose to make his perfect will happen ( predestination) without knowing everything possible ( omniscience) it logically follows. So how does God predestine without interfering with creatures who are endowed by free will? By placing certain people in a certain place and a certain time( plus God choosing specific times to intervene) where in the end through the creatures free will they actualise the greatest amount of possible people saved. This hinged on the fact that there is NO such possible reality where everyone is saved.

Well you see here is my problem, not all events are predestined in the sense that predestination + omniscience works together with human free will. As I asked, was the flood of Noah predestined with human choices, Was the Holocaust, predestined with human choices, was the birth of Jesus predestined with human choices, was his crucifixion? and what about him being slain before the foundations of earth for us. Did that involve or even ask Human choice. Because here is a big difference in the line of thinking here. I think predestination overrides human choice, it does not depend on it. As oppose to what you hold that God does predestination with the creatures intent, known to him via omniscience, without interfering. I think there are events, predestined by God that require no future knowledge of our actions to complete or initiate and thus are not valid for your explanation above, and therefore those events can not be changed by us or altered or even affected by our choices, they simply are not required for these cases.

or if not the above, then by what you wrote, it means,

The flood of Noah was predestined, since God knew every outcome by omniscience, with the creatures intent of course since they all rebelled except Noah. But it was predestined, means bound to happen and thus the creatures could not have done otherwise. I am sorry but this is what predestination is, Cet-to.

same is the conclusion with the Holocaust, if what you say is right, then following it, I conclude, that since God knew before hand what Hitler will do he predestined it with the choices of people living in that time with his omniscience and therefore for the "greater good" which is not conceivable to us at the moment, he MADE it happen, so that the end choice would have the most people saved.

I am sure these absurd conclusions are not what you meant. I am pretty sure of that. But I can not see any other way to translate what you wrote in these scenarios.

Simple fact- Predestination = willed by God, independent of human choices. I do not agree with your theory of predestination.

Lol this is hilarious Neo - you reject the version of predestination that allows humans to be free . Lol God wasn't the primary Cause of the holocaust, he started things up in the beginning but it was hitler using his free will that did it - why cant you get your head around it ? LOL just because God knew and made the universe somewhat 14 or whatever billion years ago doesn't mean it's his fault that hitler used his free will to make the holocaust - that's out right ridiculous and a contradiction. Oh gosh im so tired.................. debating with you and danny while having university exams all at the same time really has been doing a number on me.

[neo-x]

Lol this is hilarious Neo - you reject the version of predestination that allows humans to be free . Lol God wasn't the primary Cause of the holocaust, he started things up in the beginning but it was hitler using his free will that did it - why cant you get your head around it ? LOL just because God knew and made the universe somewhat 14 or whatever billion years ago doesn't mean it's his fault that hitler used his free will to make the holocaust - that's out right ridiculous and a contradiction. Oh gosh im so tired.................. debating with you and danny while having university exams all at the same time really has been doing a number on me.

Just to clarify, I believe in free will, and I believe that there are only some, only some, events, like the prophecies that are predestined, completely out of human choice. The rest well, I think God has given us pretty much choice in about everything.

The reason I reject this version of predestination is because it sounds to me rather a vague try at getting choice and predestination together with human choice as a factor, which I don't see, and I don't agree with it. It doesn't balance, rather it ungracefully patches omniscience and predestination with human choice, in a way that it becomes self contradicting at times. But that is an issue for another day. If you believe on the contrary then I respect your opinion but I do not agree to it. Take some rest, cheers.

[CeT-To]

Lol this is hilarious Neo - you reject the version of predestination that allows humans to be free . Lol God wasn't the primary Cause of the holocaust, he started things up in the beginning but it was hitler using his free will that did it - why cant you get your head around it ? LOL just because God knew and made the universe somewhat 14 or whatever billion years ago doesn't mean it's his fault that hitler used his free will to make the holocaust - that's out right ridiculous and a contradiction. Oh gosh im so tired.................. debating with you and danny while having university exams all at the same time really has been doing a number on me.

Just to clarify, I believe in free will, and I believe that there are only some, only some, events, like the prophecies that are predestined, completely out of human choice. The rest well, I think God has given us pretty much choice in about everything.

The reason I reject this version of predestination is because it sounds to me rather a vague try at getting choice and predestination together with human choice as a factor, which I don't see, and I don't agree with it. It doesn't balance, rather it ungracefully patches omniscience and predestination with human choice, in a way that it becomes self contradicting at times. But that is an issue for another day. If you believe on the contrary then I respect your opinion but I do not agree to it. Take some rest, cheers.

Yes lets agree to disagree right now , maybe we'll take this convo up at a later time cause i am tired of debating Likewise, take care brother !

[neo-x]

Lol this is hilarious Neo - you reject the version of predestination that allows humans to be free . Lol God wasn't the primary Cause of the holocaust, he started things up in the beginning but it was hitler using his free will that did it - why cant you get your head around it ? LOL just because God knew and made the universe somewhat 14 or whatever billion years ago doesn't mean it's his fault that hitler used his free will to make the holocaust - that's out right ridiculous and a contradiction. Oh gosh im so tired.................. debating with you and danny while having university exams all at the same time really has been doing a number on me.

Also let me show you why I am inclined on the opposite. the theory that you're holding is quite a loaded statement without proper definitions. And I will show you how.

By knowing everything that could possibly happen (Omniscience) and by choosing to make one of those possible realities into an actual reality ( Omniscience + Predestination)...So how does God predestine without interfering with creatures who are endowed by free will? By placing certain people in a certain place and a certain time( plus God choosing specific times to intervene) where in the end through the creatures free will they actualise the greatest amount of possible people saved.

First error, there is no such thing as possible reality. Either God knows the reality or he doesn't. So what he knows is actual reality to begin with.

But your theory says (Omni science + predestination + human choice) = actual reality.

Now based on these terms, let me show you how it would create problems. For an actual reality to happen, it needs all three elements. In the case of Holocaust, by your own theory, It was known to God (omniscience), it was Hitler's choice (human choice), and now the tricky part, predestination, (God's will). Take up any good dictionary and you will find this "the action of God in foreordaining from eternity whatever comes to pass." This clearly implies "God's will", not just knowledge.

The reason I reached to such an extreme conclusion was exactly following your theory.
(Omnipotence+Human choice+ predestination) = actual event
(God knew + Hitler went crazy + God foreordained it to happen) = The holocaust

I don't see how you can just slide by it. I never said, God is responsible for Holocaust, I said, following your reason is the way I got here and I have explained it to you.

I have said above I think there are only few events and prophecies that are predestined in concrete, the rest pretty much goes up and down.

In a debate with a smart atheist (those are hard to come by ) you will be giving him extra ammo for free.

PS: POSTED IT AND SAW THAT YOU ALREADY POSTED, ANYWAY, JUST TO EXPLAIN MY VIEW, I HAVE WRITTEN THIS.

God bless you brother.

[CeT-To]

Lol this is hilarious Neo - you reject the version of predestination that allows humans to be free . Lol God wasn't the primary Cause of the holocaust, he started things up in the beginning but it was hitler using his free will that did it - why cant you get your head around it ? LOL just because God knew and made the universe somewhat 14 or whatever billion years ago doesn't mean it's his fault that hitler used his free will to make the holocaust - that's out right ridiculous and a contradiction. Oh gosh im so tired.................. debating with you and danny while having university exams all at the same time really has been doing a number on me.

Also let me show you why I am inclined on the opposite. the theory that you're holding is quite a loaded statement without proper definitions. And I will show you how.

By knowing everything that could possibly happen (Omniscience) and by choosing to make one of those possible realities into an actual reality ( Omniscience + Predestination)...So how does God predestine without interfering with creatures who are endowed by free will? By placing certain people in a certain place and a certain time( plus God choosing specific times to intervene) where in the end through the creatures free will they actualise the greatest amount of possible people saved.

First error, there is no such thing as possible reality. Either God knows the reality or he doesn't. So what he knows is actual reality to begin with.

But your theory says (Omni science + predestination + human choice) = actual reality.

Now based on these terms, let me show you how it would create problems. For an actual reality to happen, it needs all three elements. In the case of Holocaust, by your own theory, It was known to God (omniscience), it was Hitler's choice (human choice), and now the tricky part, predestination, (God's will). Take up any good dictionary and you will find this "the action of God in foreordaining from eternity whatever comes to pass." This clearly implies "God's will", not just knowledge.

The reason I reached to such an extreme conclusion was exactly following your theory.
(Omnipotence+Human choice+ predestination) = actual event
(God knew + Hitler went crazy + God foreordained it to happen) = The holocaust

I don't see how you can just slide by it. I never said, God is responsible for Holocaust, I said, following your reason is the way I got here and I have explained it to you.

I have said above I think there are only few events and prophecies that are predestined in concrete, the rest pretty much goes up and down.

In a debate with a smart atheist (those are hard to come by ) you will be giving him extra ammo for free.

PS: POSTED IT AND SAW THAT YOU ALREADY POSTED, ANYWAY, JUST TO EXPLAIN MY VIEW, I HAVE WRITTEN THIS.

God bless you brother.

Lol no worries hahah let me just make a quick comment -

There are such things as possible realities but not in the sense that they exist in the real world but these are ways reality could have been or way God could have started things up- for example a cow could have been blue in a possible reality :S it wasn't impossible for God to choose to make a reality in such a way. What my point is by saying this is that God knowing all possible realities, knew the best one and actualised it - so i don't have to slide anything lol because if God didn't do the things he did the world would be in a worse state, maybe even unimaginably horrible in the sense where hardly anyone was saved.

[neo-x]

Lol no worries hahah let me just make a quick comment -

There are such things as possible realities but not in the sense that they exist in the real world but these are ways reality could have been or way God could have started things up- for example a cow could have been blue in a possible reality :S it wasn't impossible for God to choose to make a reality in such a way. What my point is by saying this is that God knowing all possible realities, knew the best one and actualised it - so i don't have to slide anything lol because if God didn't do the things he did the world would be in a worse state, maybe even unimaginably horrible in the sense where hardly anyone was saved.

I think there is possible reality only in the human mind, which can say, the cow could have been blue. But God always knew what he always knew, if he thinks something is a reality it will be a reality. That is why his omniscience does not make guesses.

[Widge]

Yes as he created all so he does have original thoughts

The only way you could say God has original thoughts is that if ALL of the thoughts He EVER HAD or WOULD have are also considered original ones - as God is ALL-knowing, then ALL of His thoughts must be SIMULTANEOUS. He can't know something later that He hasn't ALWAYS known. His ACTIONS can have a sequence, but ALL of His THOUGHTS must be simultaneous. The idea of God having an "original" thought implies that He can have a thought of which He didn't previously, fully and ALWAYS know about. This is why God is complete in Himself, and in His perfection lacks nothing.

How do you know? In fact how do I know. Neither of us are God.

[CeT-To]

Lol no worries hahah let me just make a quick comment -

There are such things as possible realities but not in the sense that they exist in the real world but these are ways reality could have been or way God could have started things up- for example a cow could have been blue in a possible reality :S it wasn't impossible for God to choose to make a reality in such a way. What my point is by saying this is that God knowing all possible realities, knew the best one and actualised it - so i don't have to slide anything lol because if God didn't do the things he did the world would be in a worse state, maybe even unimaginably horrible in the sense where hardly anyone was saved.

I think there is possible reality only in the human mind, which can say, the cow could have been blue. But God always knew what he always knew, if he thinks something is a reality it will be a reality. That is why his omniscience does not make guesses.

LOL i think you have it the other way around, it's not that God knows his will because he knows the future but God knows the future because he knows his will. Where did you get the guesses thing from? I never said that.

[DannyM]

LOL i think you have it the other way around, it's not that God knows his will because he knows the future but God knows the future because he knows his will. Where did you get the guesses thing from? I never said that.

Absolutely. If God's will depended on future events then it would not be His will. God doesn't 'adapt' His will to some future outcome.