Atheists are hard to convert

[RickD]

Ok, neo, if you agree with StMonica, then I'll ask you, as well:
Are you saying that we can lose our salvation, if we don't repent for all our sins?

[neo-x]

No, this is a general statement, let me clarify, I would say yes as an answer if the sinful desires prevail me with my own consent and keeps getting worse, fighting sin is a different thing, overcoming or stumbling is different. But enjoying sin after coming to Christ, at some point, is certainly going to end in spiritual death, loss of salvation, faith and our inheritance, not to mention people who turn apostate.

This is what I think.

[RickD]

Ok, neo. But my question was to StMonica, because it seemed she was saying one could lose his salvation, if he didn't repent of every sin.

Any salvation is only "assured" if we don't deny Christ. We can still be Christians and deny him through our sins and not repent for them. This is one of the problems I have with the whole "predestination" theory of a lot of Protestant religions. We still continue to sin even if we're "saved".

I just wanted StMonica to clarify. Maybe I misunderstood what she was saying.

[neo-x]

Ok, neo. But my question was to StMonica, because it seemed she was saying one could lose his salvation, if he didn't repent of every sin.
Any salvation is only "assured" if we don't deny Christ. We can still be Christians and deny him through our sins and not repent for them. This is one of the problems I have with the whole "predestination" theory of a lot of Protestant religions. We still continue to sin even if we're "saved".

I just wanted StMonica to clarify. Maybe I misunderstood what she was saying.

Ah, I see. I thought she was following my line of thought, exactly.

[StMonicaGuideMe]

I agree with Neo exactly, I think I just wasn't as clear as I should have been, my apologies.

If someone repents and fully means it, combats their temptations and does their best to overcome their most troubling sins of their natures (it's different with everyone) then God will be fair. God knows even when we're born where we will end up -- punishment or salvation, and that is the beauty of the gift of our Free Will. Even though he knows, he lets us choose our own path, and out of such great love for us, he wants us to choose the path he'd like us to be on.

But yes, there are Christians who abuse God's mercy, but then I'd argue they're not *really* sorry for what they do. So could they even be considered Christians if they want to have their cake and eat it to? Probably not.

At the end of life, only God will know what kind of life we lived. And you know what they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. We can intend on being good Christians as much as we want, but unless we have those "works" as well as our faith, I'd argue it would be difficult to maintain a truly Christian life.

[Byblos]

Rick, you know where this is leading to, right? (again).

[DannyM]

Rick, you know where this is leading to, right? (again).

seems everywhere I look it's either salvation or predestination!

[RickD]

Rick, you know where this is leading to, right? (again).

This wasn't leading anywhere else with me, Byblos. StMonica clarified what she meant. Unless you have something to add.

[RickD]

Rick, you know where this is leading to, right? (again).

seems everywhere I look it's either salvation or predestination!

That's because you're looking through Calvin colored glasses. All you Calvinists think about, is predestination.

[jlay]

I agree with Neo exactly, I think I just wasn't as clear as I should have been, my apologies.

If someone repents and fully means it, combats their temptations and does their best to overcome their most troubling sins of their natures (it's different with everyone) then God will be fair. God knows even when we're born where we will end up -- punishment or salvation, and that is the beauty of the gift of our Free Will. Even though he knows, he lets us choose our own path, and out of such great love for us, he wants us to choose the path he'd like us to be on.

But yes, there are Christians who abuse God's mercy, but then I'd argue they're not *really* sorry for what they do. So could they even be considered Christians if they want to have their cake and eat it to? Probably not.

At the end of life, only God will know what kind of life we lived. And you know what they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. We can intend on being good Christians as much as we want, but unless we have those "works" as well as our faith, I'd argue it would be difficult to maintain a truly Christian life.

So Stmon, are you willing to examine yourself under that same standard. Have you always done the good you ought to do? (James 4:17) Have you asked for forgiveness each time you've failed to do the good you ought?

Is there a sincerity meter we can see that can let us know if we were contrite enough? If not, how can you be sure that you have done all that is required of you? I assum you think you've lived a good life, and that if salvation is a ladder, that the fakers are on a rung somewhere below you.

Bottom line is you are adding to the gospel. Believe + repent of sins +feel 'really' sorry for what you did + strong rational foundation = salvation
Do you understand that the word repent is not synonomous with sin?

Any salvation is only "assured" if we don't deny Christ.

Please be specific in what you mean by this. Isn't any sin, apathy, failing, etc. a denial?

[Byblos]

Rick, you know where this is leading to, right? (again).

This wasn't leading anywhere else with me, Byblos. StMonica clarified what she meant. Unless you have something to add.

Oh no, not me, and maybe not even you, but as predicted (^).

[StMonicaGuideMe]

So Stmon, are you willing to examine yourself under that same standard. Have you always done the good you ought to do? (James 4:17) Have you asked for forgiveness each time you've failed to do the good you ought?

Is there a sincerity meter we can see that can let us know if we were contrite enough? If not, how can you be sure that you have done all that is required of you? I assum you think you've lived a good life, and that if salvation is a ladder, that the fakers are on a rung somewhere below you.

Bottom line is you are adding to the gospel. Believe + repent of sins +feel 'really' sorry for what you did + strong rational foundation = salvation
Do you understand that the word repent is not synonomous with sin?

Any salvation is only "assured" if we don't deny Christ.

Please be specific in what you mean by this. Isn't any sin, apathy, failing, etc. a denial?

Jlay, not only am I willing to do it, I am required by my faith to do so. I do not think I am "adding" to the gospel at all.
I'm a Catholic. I regularly attend confession and thus examine my conscious as often as possible. There is a very, very comprehensive list that allows us to go through each of the 10 commandments and how that "crosses over" into our modern lives, so we can truly examine our actions and intentions.
Of course I have not done the good I ought to have done; I have neglected; I have omitted, by my own choice. But, I ask for the forgiveness, not presuming God's mercy, nor acting in a way that presumes it. I sin. I am a sinner. I am nothing in comparison to God. And it is in those moments that the pride that caused me to choose sin over goodness is when I feel true humility for what I've done.

Of course I don't know that I have done all that is required of me; but if my intent and my actions and my sincerity in asking God for forgiveness all lines up together, then I have faith in God's mercy. At the same time, I have to be willing to explain something if I don't ask for forgiveness -- and I pray to God I am never so lost that I try to "justify" sin!

You are right, however, in your explanation of "denying" Christ. We most certainly turn away from him every time we sin. So, yes, that is far more broad than I had illustrated.

[neo-x]

I agree with Neo exactly,

I hear you.

[StMonicaGuideMe]

I agree with Neo exactly,

I hear you.

yay!

[neo-x]

Jilay wrote
Believe + repent of sins +feel 'really' sorry for what you did + strong rational foundation = salvation

well I think the here is a bit of ambiguity to begin with on J's part with respect to my stance (as it is close to Stmonica's). So just to clarify, Salvation, comes not through works but by grace when you come to Christ, repent and are made a new creature. That is something I agree with you J.

But the rest well, I agree with Stmonica, after we are saved, if we start to sin and more so, enjoy sin, to such a point that we don't feel much bad, then sure I'm treading a dangerous path. If I count my deeds as a requirement to my faith, that does not make my salvation "based on works". This is really a stretch to assume so. My works are a part of faith and my faith holds my salvation. But I am not given God's grace on my works, but I am required to work those works in order to full fill God's commandment and love Christ, failing to do so with choice and no guilt will not land me in any favour with God. I hope you can see that.

Is there a sincerity meter we can see that can let us know if we were contrite enough? If not, how can you be sure that you have done all that is required of you?

You know when you are sincere with God and when you're not. That is all that is required. Failing to have done something I was suppose to do will only make me ask for God's grace so that I can walk that path where I failed. I don't see how works can be abolished from Christian walk of life. Sure, they are not meant for demanding salvation, for no amount of works can do that, but our works full fills the work of salvation which Christ started in us. And failing to do so would only stop the work of the new spirit that is in us. I am not sure you can do all against what God commanded, on your will and still expects God to accept you.

The only point I would like to ask you, is, do you believe that after we come to Christ we can't sin with our conscience? Because if we can then we deliberately disregard the gospel. I know, no amount of sin can separate us from Christ but disobedience certainly can, if it is wilful and lacks the attitude to ask forgiveness and repent of the sin. So like Monica, I'd say, that I trust in God's mercy and my faith is not rooted in my works but my trust in God that he certainly see my sincerity and my intent, in walking the walk of faith and obeying Christ.

I certainly think it is required cuz if not then why the poeple in the below verses are asked of their work and please see if their salvation (without works) really saved them,

Matthew 25

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

Certainly the failure to do some very important things landed them in trouble and eternal punishment. I don't see how you can still say that works have nothing to do with our salvation, we don't earn salvation on them but failing to do these works also makes you disobey God. These guys practically lost their "secured salvation", which is of course accepting Christ, but they didn't do the rest and they certainly didn't care and look where they ended.

So I agree with you, these people didn't receive their salvation based on their works (when they were on earth and repented) but I cannot see how you can not agree with me that the very same people lost their salvation and ended up in eternal punishment, not just because of their faith but their works also.