England and Europe Spiritual Condition

[B. W.]

Croatia sounds bleak and you all need prayer and support over there.

I agree, although the situation in the Western Europe seems more grave to me, having read other people's impressions. However, I'm afraid a similar destiny only awaits us in the future.

How easy is it to get a bible/prayer study group going in Croatia?

Hmmm... I guess it depends on the community. There seems to be some interest - the recent visit by the Pope attracted at least a hundred thousand mostly young people. Bible study groups are something that I first heard of here - Catholic communities (which make a vast majority), unfortunately, often rely too much on the RCC's teachings instead of the Scripture. Furthermore, most of them uncritically accept Darwinian evolution. Alternatively, non-Catholic churches are hard to find. Regardless, there are good communities, it's just that such are harder to find if you live in a bigger town.

Have you thought of starting a bible/study prayer group?
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[Silvertusk]

Just adding my bit.

Britain is a dangerously securlarised nation. The politically correct brigade is slowly destroying our Christian Heritage - Christian values are slowly being eroded - take such issues such as abortion and same sex marriages. As a teacher I can see first hand how the lack of Christian upbringing is damaging our children. Close to 50% in some primary classes come from broken homes or from large families where the mother just sleeps around and does not have any care for the damage she doing apart from getting her benefits. Selfish fathers who have no sense of responsibility. The amount of rudeness and disrespect I have to deal with day to day is staggering. Selfishness, greed and lack of grace here is overwhelming. I do not share the optimism that other posters here have. Britian is a nation drifting from God and are now starting to pay the consequeces.

And there are 2 pubs where I live that used to be churches.

Silvertusk.

This is what I heard several people say about England -

Secularisms materialism = extreme selfishness

Bible is correct again - Love of many will grow cold...

But so you still see hope for a return to Christ? A fighting back?
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Maybe. Looks pretty unlikely at the moment. Maybe on a small scale in some of the churches. Our church is doing ok at the moment. About 100 regular attendance - and that is quite good for a small baptist hall - fills it up.

[Reactionary]

Have you thought of starting a bible/study prayer group?

It would be very hard to carry out something like that. I can already imagine the reaction. At first it would be something like: "Oh that's a great idea, it's exactly what we need around here! Count me in!" And a week later, "Oh sorry, I'm not available today, I (insert a poor excuse here)".

B.W., in fact I'm glad that you asked me this question - it made me think about the fact that I've faced such a reaction whenever I've tried to seize the initiative and talk people into trying something new or original. Not even on that scale - it's a problem to even organize an evening out with colleagues. There are always three phases - first enthusiasm, then reluctance, and finally cop-out. This has been a mystery to me, as I don't think there's anything wrong with me that scares people away - in fact I think I can safely rule that option out, since many people around here, who are in their 40s and older, have started noticing this phenomenon as well. So I'm not crazy or anything. I guess this brings us back to my original post in this topic, the spiritual condition. Is it possible that young people may be afraid of trying new things, being original, active, vibrant, in other words being young? Since that's the impression I get, and I'm a very intuitive person.

Any opinions, B.W. or anyone else?

[B. W.]

Have you thought of starting a bible/study prayer group?

It would be very hard to carry out something like that. I can already imagine the reaction. At first it would be something like: "Oh that's a great idea, it's exactly what we need around here! Count me in!" And a week later, "Oh sorry, I'm not available today, I (insert a poor excuse here)".

B.W., in fact I'm glad that you asked me this question - it made me think about the fact that I've faced such a reaction whenever I've tried to seize the initiative and talk people into trying something new or original. Not even on that scale - it's a problem to even organize an evening out with colleagues. There are always three phases - first enthusiasm, then reluctance, and finally cop-out. This has been a mystery to me, as I don't think there's anything wrong with me that scares people away - in fact I think I can safely rule that option out, since many people around here, who are in their 40s and older, have started noticing this phenomenon as well. So I'm not crazy or anything. I guess this brings us back to my original post in this topic, the spiritual condition. Is it possible that young people may be afraid of trying new things, being original, active, vibrant, in other words being young? Since that's the impression I get, and I'm a very intuitive person.

Any opinions, B.W. or anyone else?

I suggest praying about it and just begin. Why not you? Don’t worry about numbers, in the book of Acts, some of the greatest churches began with just a household or 11 believers just meeting and new ones dropping buy. Or better said – drawn buy. We always say, God use me for something but when that something comes our way, we say, wow, can’t but why not, this time? What do you have to lose? Croatia can’t be any worse off if things do not grow but what if they do – thru you? Just your planting a seed in someone yet unknown to you may sprout into the Christian reformer your country needs – so why not?

I suggest Starting with the book of Acts and use it to spring board into the gospels. Go slow, and use a question and answer format. Go one chapter at a time – write out a few questions. Use these as handouts, so those attending can answer on their own and next week review the answers and discuss, let people ask questions. Respond only when things slow down. Let people think for themselves. This is a very effective method. W here can help you design a basic outline of questions for Acts. If the Lord can use a small group of people in the darkest of pagan times to build his church – he can still do so through us. Never become discouraged by numbers – God is into quality work! You have that quality so grow…
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[narnia4]

You know, some of that doesn't sound at all different from America, or at least local churches here. Apathy is a huge issue and to me its a big part of what leads some people to turn away from Christianity.

I'll use Sweden as an example, its well known as one of the most secular/atheistic nations on the planet... and yet 70+% are still members of the Lutheran church... the vast, vast majority being inactive. To me that speaks volumes of the apathy and self-centered attitude of people in general.

But its very hard to get initiatives started around here as well, although I definitely agree that you shouldn't make it about the numbers.

[B. W.]

You know, some of that doesn't sound at all different from America, or at least local churches here. Apathy is a huge issue and to me its a big part of what leads some people to turn away from Christianity.

I'll use Sweden as an example, its well known as one of the most secular/atheistic nations on the planet... and yet 70+% are still members of the Lutheran church... the vast, vast majority being inactive. To me that speaks volumes of the apathy and self-centered attitude of people in general.

But its very hard to get initiatives started around here as well, although I definitely agree that you shouldn't make it about the numbers.

This brings up another point -

I call these hanger-on's - do you think such are really believers in Christ or just thos ethat hang on for the socail club - or name only?

This is true everywhere.
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[B. W.]

You know, some of that doesn't sound at all different from America, or at least local churches here. Apathy is a huge issue and to me its a big part of what leads some people to turn away from Christianity.

I'll use Sweden as an example, its well known as one of the most secular/atheistic nations on the planet... and yet 70+% are still members of the Lutheran church... the vast, vast majority being inactive. To me that speaks volumes of the apathy and self-centered attitude of people in general.

But its very hard to get initiatives started around here as well, although I definitely agree that you shouldn't make it about the numbers.

This brings up another point - I call these hanger-on's - do you think such are really believers in Christ or just thos ethat hang on for the socail club - or name only? This is true everywhere.

This brings me to another point: Should we as Christians, even in the USA, Australia, Europe, everywhere, just hunker down and cower or should we not love our lives unto to death?

Rev 12:11 NKJV

Daniel 11:32, 33, 34, 35c

If the times are actually nearing the end of the current age; what do we really have to lose if all is lost already, and, even if not, what is lost then if we do nothing?

Of the seven churches in Revelation – which are we part of?

If God can use a man hiding under a threshing floor, a stammerer, a kid with a sling slot, a former persecutor. A tax collector, fishermen, the blind and lame, a widow, a former hooker, the fearful, then why can’t he use you or I – what have we been praying for and who do we believe in?

1 Co 1:26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31

As it is written:

Arise and shine for thy light has come…
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[narnia4]

You know, some of that doesn't sound at all different from America, or at least local churches here. Apathy is a huge issue and to me its a big part of what leads some people to turn away from Christianity.

I'll use Sweden as an example, its well known as one of the most secular/atheistic nations on the planet... and yet 70+% are still members of the Lutheran church... the vast, vast majority being inactive. To me that speaks volumes of the apathy and self-centered attitude of people in general.

But its very hard to get initiatives started around here as well, although I definitely agree that you shouldn't make it about the numbers.

This brings up another point -

I call these hanger-on's - do you think such are really believers in Christ or just thos ethat hang on for the socail club - or name only?

This is true everywhere.
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Definitely. Since we can't know a man's heart, I couldn't even begin to guess. I think that if three fourths of Americans truly had the Holy Spirit working in their heart and Christ in their life, this country would look very differently. But whether someone has fallen away from God but may return or do know Christ or if they've just been nominal or social or cultural Christians... I guess its a case by case thing that only God knows.

Imo that's actually one of the biggest differences, I don't think its the case that back in the "good old days" most people were good Christians who loved the Lord and actively pursued a relationship with him. Calling yourself a Christian might be seen as a cultural thing or a social expectation, just the norm even if it doesn't describe what you actually believe. Today this has been shifted to the opposite of the spectrum but moreso in Europe, there's no longer that cultural expectation and the norm is (or at least might soon become) calling yourself humanist, secular, "spiritual but not religious", etc.

In some ways this could be seen as positive. Saying "I'm a Christian" could be a bold, proud stand for Christ instead of a cultural expectation, or like a politician trying to appease voters.

A final piece of evidence that I think would tend to support this, I remember one poll showing that the percentage of scientists (I forget if it was from American universities or scientists in general) who called themselves believers was virtually identical over about an 80 year period, I think it was the 1910s and the 90s. To me that's an indicator that there really hadn't been as much change as you'd expect among people who may be more careful about what label they put on themselves... that one of the biggest changes indeed HAS been cultural expectations.

[DannyM]

A final piece of evidence that I think would tend to support this, I remember one poll showing that the percentage of scientists (I forget if it was from American universities or scientists in general) who called themselves believers was virtually identical over about an 80 year period, I think it was the 1910s and the 90s. To me that's an indicator that there really hadn't been as much change as you'd expect among people who may be more careful about what label they put on themselves... that one of the biggest changes indeed HAS been cultural expectations.

It’s fashion. For some strange, hitherto unknown reason, it has been fashionable to be a mocker, to follow the empty philosophy of atheism. They came, they saw, they did not conquer. They are now philosophical relics, whom we may amusingly refer to in past, very past tense.

[narnia4]

A final piece of evidence that I think would tend to support this, I remember one poll showing that the percentage of scientists (I forget if it was from American universities or scientists in general) who called themselves believers was virtually identical over about an 80 year period, I think it was the 1910s and the 90s. To me that's an indicator that there really hadn't been as much change as you'd expect among people who may be more careful about what label they put on themselves... that one of the biggest changes indeed HAS been cultural expectations.

It’s fashion. For some strange, hitherto unknown reason, it has been fashionable to be a mocker, to follow the empty philosophy of atheism. They came, they saw, they did not conquer. They are now philosophical relics, whom we may amusingly refer to in past, very past tense.

You know, the ironic thing is that when you finally do research and use "reason" and "think rationally", you really can move past atheism pretty easily. Its almost like looking back at a child's philosophy, to the point that the only time you might see yourself or others slip is when you're in a diminished state intellectually and letting your emotions get the better of you or have grown apathetic. So many people completely buying into some of these empty worldviews, it used to be a real headscratcher.

This being Thanksgiving in the US, that's one thing that I'm thankful for that the "new atheists" brought us. With their irrational vitrol and hatred and common use of ad hominems and obvious strawmans, they made it plain that its no intellectual issue for them.

[DannyM]

You know, the ironic thing is that when you finally do research and use "reason" and "think rationally", you really can move past atheism pretty easily. Its almost like looking back at a child's philosophy, to the point that the only time you might see yourself or others slip is when you're in a diminished state intellectually and letting your emotions get the better of you or have grown apathetic. So many people completely buying into some of these empty worldviews, it used to be a real headscratcher.

This being Thanksgiving in the US, that's one thing that I'm thankful for that the "new atheists" brought us. With their irrational vitrol and hatred and common use of ad hominems and obvious strawmans, they made it plain that its no intellectual issue for them.

I know. Where's the thinking? Presuppositions must be practically blinding here. We have people who are no doubt very reasonable, focused and coherent in everyday life. When it comes to philosophy of life, when it comes to world-view, anything, anything is more ‘logical’ to these people than an all powerful creator.

Happy Thanksgiving

[Murray]

I live an in insanely conservative and religious part of Virginia. My church has over 4,000 in attendance weekly, and there are 3 other mega churches located in our county. (along with numerous other smaller ones)

My school has numerous christian clubs, 4/5 of our teachers are religous, and our physics teacher even reads the bible and prays in school . And My oceanography teacher continually says "it's just a theory" and actually includes creationism as a legitimate theory on creation

Some kids in my school even organize massive christian campfires on some Saturdays where about half the senior class shows up, it's really nice.

When somebody says they are an atheist in my school people go into shock when they hear those words (unless they are the all black dress emo kids who you would suspect to be).