Atheists are hard to convert

[neo-x]

Jilay thank you for explaining to me and bearing with me, I appreciate that.

Trust that just as He will save you, He will keep you.

I know he will, J, my hope is in his promise, not my performance. This is what I have been telling you all along. What about the master who came late when his servant was sleep. Didn't Jesus say, blessed is the servant who full fills his duties and awaits his master. We are his servants, his disciples, if what I am saying doesn't make sense to you then please understand it this way, you don't have to agree but any ways what I see when I read this is this. The servant represents us, me and you. Christ is the master. We both know he is coming, this amounts to our faith. Okay, you with me? The master comes back, and now he is asks his servants to report. You report back with what you have been entrusted with and you have done well, so you are awarded. I however did nothing with mine. So you know what happens, then. It is not works that save me but grace, but my works are in obedience, and I am accountable for that.

Faith must be a living reality.

So, I understand it this way. If you still say that the context is different, then my brother, the context will always differ with you and me and anyone else for that matter. Because no law of interpretation can conclusively tell you what the original thought of the author was. You can just grab a logical line of thinking and try to follow it consistently, but there will be hiccups, there always are.

My guess, is just like I used to, I didn't look at my own failings the same way I looked at the failings of others.

I am not doing anything even close to that.

According to you, You could lose it at any time, and perhaps already have. Of course you don't think you will, but that is simply arrogant.

Don't you too think the same J, that you won't lose your salvation. What makes me arrogant?

You metnioned earlier if I thought you were saved. But the real question, based on how you define these terms is, how can you know? I don't see how you can. According to you, You could lose it at any time, and perhaps already have. Of course you don't think you will, but that is simply arrogant. I would guess that if we really examined my life or your life, there is some area where we need to change, and we are not. maybe in charity, maybe in actions, maybe in thought. Just like you, I held these same positions. They are a dead end, with no hope. Trust that just as He will save you, He will keep you.

J, it is easy to pull up extreme positions and easily knock them down, as you have been doing with some past posts. Let me venture my own (which I was refraining from doing earlier). You accept Christ and now YOU CAN NEVER FALL FROM GRACE, NEVER even if you sin, murder, steal, rape, lie, lust, whatever (we sin always, right and anyone can sin). If you sin and still claim you are saved then that would be arrogant. Works don't amount to your salvation, not one bit. You can't have it both ways. if you say, you are saved, then you are saved in ANY CASE. period. Then no amount of sin can condemn you, nothing. Whatever wrongs you do, God will forgive you, eventually. Its saving grace, right? No sin is more powerful then the blood of Christ. This the same type of reasoning the United Methodist link you gave me said. You can sin, you will sin (that is a given), but you will be saved, nonetheless. But what it fails to address is, would you remain saved, sealed, if afterwards you committed genocide??????? I am following your line of thought logical and being consistent with your claim.

Now, note this, if what I have said in the above immediate lines, is horribly wrong, that it does not rightly reflect your position and I have completely missed your point. That I have overlooked a lot of small factors and so have ended on the wrong conclusion. That there are certain factors, I didn't calculate and some premises that must be assumed or given, which I failed to account. Then that is the same, you are doing with my position (not with any malice of course), you are distorting it to object. Hey! I can do the same. Sounds preposterous, right? Well that is how your questions made sense to me. Because they were not reflecting what I believed, exactly. I have only done this to show you, where your consistent line of thought becomes ridiculous.

I can follow your line of thought and come out with a completely absurd conclusion, J. It is no rocket science.

There are some roadblocks in my understanding of your position (I just showed you one) and perhaps that is the only reason I have not agreed with you.

[DannyM]

Neo, I know you‘re “giving an extreme” scenario, so I just want to comment on that.

You accept Christ and now YOU CAN NEVER FALL FROM GRACE, NEVER

This is true, since grace is a gift and the gift is never taken away again.

even if you sin, murder, steal, rape, lie, lust, whatever (we sin always, right and anyone can sin). If you sin and still claim you are saved then that would be arrogant.

No, it is not arrogant, brother, since it is taking God at His word. It is trusting God.

Works don't amount to your salvation, not one bit. You can't have it both ways. if you say, you are saved, then you are saved in ANY CASE. period. Then no amount of sin can condemn you, nothing. Whatever wrongs you do, God will forgive you, eventually. Its saving grace, right? No sin is more powerful then the blood of Christ. This the same type of reasoning the United Methodist link you gave me said. You can sin, you will sin (that is a given), but you will be saved, nonetheless. But what it fails to address is, would you remain saved, sealed, if afterwards you committed genocide??????? I am following your line of thought logical and being consistent with your claim.

First, Christ covered ALL sin. Sin is sin, bro, wouldn’t you agree?

Second, once God begins the work in us, we are His until the end:

Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

1 Corinthians 1:8-9
8 He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.

Colossians 3:1-3
1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.

2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.

3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.

4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

So, in my opinion, your “extreme” is irrelevant.

God bless

[neo-x]

So, in my opinion, your “extreme” is irrelevant.

You have been "Extremely" modest, brother Danny. My "extreme" is actually absurd and ridiculous, Bro. That cannot be what you or J, believe. I have already said that. I just pointed out that extreme positions can be easy to pull up and knock down, that's all.

neo-x wrote:
You accept Christ and now YOU CAN NEVER FALL FROM GRACE, NEVER
This is true, since grace is a gift and the gift is never taken away again.

I absolutely agree Bro, but can it be given back by the recipient? My answer is yes. And I know you hold to the contrary. This is actually where the problem starts in the two views we are sharing.

neo-x wrote:
even if you sin, murder, steal, rape, lie, lust, whatever (we sin always, right and anyone can sin). If you sin and still claim you are saved then that would be arrogant.

No, it is not arrogant, brother, since it is taking God at His word. It is trusting God.

That was just an ironic remark on J's words, Danny, I never would imply, in reality, such a thing to anyone of you. I believe, J mentioned in one of the earlier posts that Rick and you would agree with his assessment. I would just like to add that as brothers, your opinions are not only welcome, they are respected. Because even though we may not agree, I know that they are given with the best of intentions.

neo-x wrote:
Works don't amount to your salvation, not one bit. You can't have it both ways. if you say, you are saved, then you are saved in ANY CASE. period. Then no amount of sin can condemn you, nothing. Whatever wrongs you do, God will forgive you, eventually. Its saving grace, right? No sin is more powerful then the blood of Christ. This the same type of reasoning the United Methodist link you gave me said. You can sin, you will sin (that is a given), but you will be saved, nonetheless. But what it fails to address is, would you remain saved, sealed, if afterwards you committed genocide??????? I am following your line of thought logical and being consistent with your claim.


First of all, bro, Christ covered ALL sin. Sin is sin, bro, wouldn’t you agree?

He did indeed brother Danny! amen to that.
I do believe however that he commands and requires obedience, would you agree?

Second, once God begins the work in us, we are His until the end:
Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

1 Corinthians 1:8-9
8 He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.

Colossians 3:1-3
1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.

2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.

3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.

4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

Bro, I think we remain his as long as we want. But again this is something we don't agree on.

btw, I wanted to explain why I think the way I think. So did this make any sense to you?

What about the master who came late when his servant was sleep. Didn't Jesus say, blessed is the servant who full fills his duties and awaits his master. We are his servants, his disciples, if what I am saying doesn't make sense to you then please understand it this way, you don't have to agree but any ways what I see when I read this is this. The servant represents us, me and you. Christ is the master. We both know he is coming, this amounts to our faith. Okay, you with me? The master comes back, and now he is asks his servants to report. You report back with what you have been entrusted with and you have done well, so you are awarded. I however did nothing with mine. So you know what happens, then. It is not works that save me but grace, but my works are in obedience, and I am accountable for that.

I can always be wrong, brother Danny, I have no doubt about it at all. In times like this I offer my prayers with a request to God to open my mind, if it has been closed with too much of my own logic.

[jlay]

So, I understand it this way. If you still say that the context is different, then my brother, the context will always differ with you and me and anyone else for that matter. Because no law of interpretation can conclusively tell you what the original thought of the author was. You can just grab a logical line of thinking and try to follow it consistently, but there will be hiccups, there always are.

Well then, we might as well not try to understand anything. I assure you men like Aquinas and many others would disagree.

Don't you too think the same J, that you won't lose your salvation. What makes me arrogant?

That's simple. I am not trusting my performance. Any 'works' I do are simply responding in faith to what He has already prepared. A Christian should have works. Why? Because God has already prepared them for us to walk in. A Christian should be obedient and fruitful. Because they are blessed with every spiritual blessing in heavenly places. We have access to everything we need.

On the other hand you are saying, according to your definition of faith, that at some level, your performance is absolutely essential to maintaining. Of course you think, right now, that your performance is up to par. You just can't define par with scriptual evidence. There isn't any. It's illusory. And one must revert to a, "Too me.......," approach.
That is why I asked you about percentages earlier. How can you know? I know that you sin. I know that you fail. Because scritpure says so, and you are like the rest of us. No better, no worse.

J, it is easy to pull up extreme positions and easily knock them down, as you have been doing with some past posts. Let me venture my own (which I was refraining from doing earlier). You accept Christ and now YOU CAN NEVER FALL FROM GRACE, NEVER even if you sin, murder, steal, rape, lie, lust, whatever (we sin always, right and anyone can sin). If you sin and still claim you are saved then that would be arrogant. Works don't amount to your salvation, not one bit. You can't have it both ways. if you say, you are saved, then you are saved in ANY CASE. period. Then no amount of sin can condemn you, nothing. Whatever wrongs you do, God will forgive you, eventually. Its saving grace, right? No sin is more powerful then the blood of Christ. This the same type of reasoning the United Methodist link you gave me said. You can sin, you will sin (that is a given), but you will be saved, nonetheless. But what it fails to address is, would you remain saved, sealed, if afterwards you committed genocide??????? I am following your line of thought logical and being consistent with your claim.

Romans 8:1. Can a Christian sin? Yes. You are categorizing sin. In other words, you are saying that your sins really aren't as bad. And thus, "too me....." Let's remember that a genuine beleiver WILL be disciplined. I can remember when I was living in rebellion to my salvation. I was doing things contrary to the truth I knew. I wasn't committing genocide, but I was chasing after the pleasures of sin. What happened? The Lord disciplined me. I found nothing but sadness, frustration, anxiety and depression. This led me back to the Lord. You see, I am not my own. I am bought with a price. I know there are a lot of people who think salvation is just a pledge, or a committment, or whatever. But it isn't. All those things can be broken. Birth rights can not. If one is born again, the Father will keep them.
Could they committ genocide? I read that thhe men who flew the Enola Gay were Christians. They committed an atrocity. Are you saying their acts revoke their salvation? How big is the grace of God? Why is your post slavation sin able to be covered? It only tells me that you have a very small vision of the grace of God, and a very watered down perspective of your own sin.

It is absurd that a good God would die for murderers, and liars, and you.

[neo-x]

Could they committ genocide? I read that thhe men who flew the Enola Gay were Christians. They committed an atrocity. Are you saying their acts revoke their salvation?

Are you saying that by murdering hundreds of thousands of people, they are just welcomed at the gates of heaven? cuz they believed Christ? I am not against the idea of warring against some really unjust, cruel man but bombing a city with a nuke and then flying off and going to church the next Sunday, doesn't sound the least Christ like to me. You think the Christian guys who did the My Lai Massacre in Vietnam have their salvations sealed, still, after what they did?

So you're saying that God's grace is big enough to cover genocide, post salvation? Quite a loaded claim you have here, J.

It only tells me that you have a very small vision of the grace of God

After reading your opinion on this, my limited seems very much rational then yours limitless. Unless of course I have misunderstood something here. I really don't find the implication of you statement appealing, rational or even spiritual on this point.

Let's remember that a genuine beleiver WILL be disciplined.

Look how you are contradicting your view here. At one hand you claim that a GENUINE BELIEVER (I WONDER HOW YOU CALCULATE THAT) will be disciplined and at the other hand you are saying that the Enola Gay people can not be condemned. Wow! dropping an atomic bomb seems disciplined to you? there are only two ways out of this,

1. Enola Gay crew were not GENUINE BELIEVERS (and we have no way to prove it one way or the other, since neither you or myself is God)
2. They were GENUINE BELIEVERS but then I don't see how this can be called disciplined in any way.

Of course you think, right now, that your performance is up to par.

Did I claim such a thing anywhere, in any posts? If you are going to assume my position the you also should back it up with my quote or else it is misrepresentation of my opinion, J. I thought we were past this point.

[Murray]

Neo.

Read what the Japanese did every Japanese citizen during the island hopping campaign. 3 things and 1 rare thing occurred

1) Japanese at gun point, forced them to take sharpened bamboo sticks and charge the american lines to waste american ammunition and decrease american moral from shooting old men, little children, and women.

2) Mass suicide, forced by Japanese or executed by Japanese to decrease american moral

3) Citizens killed themselves voluntarily.

4) (rare) escaped form japanese and went into hiding

Now it is a solid FACT that this would have happened int he Japanese mainland if we invaded. So in all honesty, they would have probably died anyway and japan as we know it would be soooooo much worse, much lower population for one. Much higher death toll would have occurred.

And think of the american lives we saved, probably in the 400k range because the japs never gave up, many fought to the last man during the island hopping campaign.

In all honesty, we probably saved japan by dropping the nukes. Nukes are the only reason japan surrendered, we would have had to pretty much exterminate the Japanese to get them to surrender in their mainland

[neo-x]

Murray on Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:12 am

Neo.

Read what the Japanese did every Japanese citizen during the island hopping campaign. 3 things and 1 rare thing occurred

1) Japanese at gun point, forced them to take sharpened bamboo sticks and charge the american lines to waste american ammunition and decrease american moral from shooting old men, little children, and women.

2) Mass suicide, forced by Japanese or executed by Japanese to decrease american moral

3) Citizens killed themselves voluntarily.

4) (rare) escaped form japanese and went into hiding

Now it is a solid FACT that this would have happened int he Japanese mainland if we invaded. So in all honesty, they would have probably died anyway and japan as we know it would be soooooo much worse, much lower population for one. Much higher death toll would have occurred.

And think of the american lives we saved, probably in the 400k range because the japs never gave up, many fought to the last man during the island hopping campaign.

In all honesty, we probably saved japan by dropping the nukes. Nukes are the only reason japan surrendered, we would have had to pretty much exterminate the Japanese to get them to surrender in their mainland

Murray, think about this rationally. if the USA started doing these atrocities, tomorrow, would you still hold the same position and kill millions of innocent people for the greater good, your family, your friends, children, elders etc etc. This is really a very pathetic excuse to justify nuking some country. This is almost an militant atheistic thinking. Kill millions for the greater good.

[neo-x]

Almost all countries do some kind of atrocities in war, but this is no way to justify the bombing of Japan. Have you never heard of the great american civil war? How the west was won? how the rail road got laid? how the native Indians got almost extinct not to mention the slavery in the US and Britain, lynchings, rape, child abuse and what not. Are these excuse,s good enough for these countries to be nuked? had they been all done in the atomic age. By your reasoning it would not take a long time to reach the same conclusion.

[neo-x]

Now it is a solid FACT that this would have happened int he Japanese mainland if we invaded. So in all honesty, they would have probably died anyway and japan as we know it would be soooooo much worse, much lower population for one. Much higher death toll would have occurred.

That is their problem, not yours. Every country has its own problems. Imagine, Russia bombing the USA cuz it thinks that your culture is beyond redeeming, so you are destined to be doomed, so they should just kill you anyway. Do you think they have a bloody right to do that? The answer is "NO". The same applies to you.

Murray, this is a very twisted way to look at things.

[jlay]

Are you saying that by murdering hundreds of thousands of people, they are just welcomed at the gates of heaven? cuz they believed Christ? I am not against the idea of warring against some really unjust, cruel man but bombing a city with a nuke and then flying off and going to church the next Sunday, doesn't sound the least Christ like to me. You think the Christian guys who did the My Lai Massacre in Vietnam have their salvations sealed, still, after what they did?

Neo, Ok, so where is the line? What sin, or amount of sin is too much for a believer?

After reading your opinion on this, my limited seems very much rational then yours limitless. Unless of course I have misunderstood something here. I really don't find the implication of you statement appealing, rational or even spiritual on this point.

Neo, no matter how you want to look at it, you are ranking sin. You are ranking yours one way, and then potential sin (genocide) another way. What scripture are you using to do this? The scriptures that list such sins, lump them all togeter. It list liars with murderers together. Rev. 21:8. Jesus said that lust was adultery, anger was murder. All of the ten commands had the penalty of death.

Look how you are contradicting your view here. At one hand you claim that a GENUINE BELIEVER (I WONDER HOW YOU CALCULATE THAT) will be disciplined and at the other hand you are saying that the Enola Gay people can not be condemned. Wow! dropping an atomic bomb seems disciplined to you? there are only two ways out of this,

There is absolutely no contradiction here. You are misreading the text. Let's look at the verse.
"But if you be without chastisement, of which all are partakers, then are you illegitimate children, and not sons." (KJV)
"If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. (NIV
Now lert;'s look with another verse to compare.
1 Corinthians 11:32 When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.
The judgement a believer experiences is not a judgment of condemnation. Believers still sin, and the Lord chastises (disciplines). I experienced this first hand, and still do.

The bible says true sons WILL be disciplined. The lost will not. They will not be convicted by the HS. They can not grieve what they do not have. Are you saying that when I discipline my child, I am revoking her as my daughter? A genuine believer has received Christ, and is baptized by one spirit into one body. Do you think everyone claiming to be a Christian is a Christian?
I'm saying that if ANY beleiver will be condemed (defining this as rejection and repreobate) then you make mockery out of Romans 8:1 and the Gospel in general.
Does lying seem disciplined to you? Does lust? Does losing your temper? Do you understande what the verse in Hebews is saying regarding discipline? Your comments make me wonder if you are. You can use these outlandish examples but that only shows that you are categorizing sin.

Regarding the enola Gay. I mentioned that because many see that as justifiable. Probably not the best example. I have no way of knowing if any of the crew were believers for certain. I do know that if they were, they are not condemned.

Did I claim such a thing anywhere, in any posts? If you are going to assume my position the you also should back it up with my quote or else it is misrepresentation of my opinion, J. I thought we were past this point.

I don't think I'm jumping to conclusions here. If you died right now, do you trust 100% that you are secure in Christ? Is so, how?

[Murray]

My entire point was neo, that these people would have most likely died either way. By them dieing they probably saved millions....

Suicide, banzi charge, execution, casualty of war, most historians would agree the atomic bomb saved more than it killed.

Japan would have been like every single island invaded before it, nearly all civilians killed.

[StMonicaGuideMe]

Ultimately, only God knows our hearts, our intents, our actions, and our will and whether or not we did what we could to line up our lives with what he wants for us. We can presume as much as possible, but none of us can quantify our sins in the eyes of God. Only he knows how we've offended him and in his mercy, he will meet us as long as we reach for him and trust him completely

[neo-x]

My apologies for the long post but I have to break it down now.

jlay on Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:35 am

Are you saying that by murdering hundreds of thousands of people, they are just welcomed at the gates of heaven? cuz they believed Christ? I am not against the idea of warring against some really unjust, cruel man but bombing a city with a nuke and then flying off and going to church the next Sunday, doesn't sound the least Christ like to me. You think the Christian guys who did the My Lai Massacre in Vietnam have their salvations sealed, still, after what they did?

Neo, Ok, so where is the line? What sin, or amount of sin is too much for a believer?

Honestly J, killing hundreds of thousands does not qualify to be a line here? This is baffling to me, J. But regarding your position, that is the only thing you can now say to back it up. Commit what you want, you will be saved, eventually. The real problem is, according to you, grace prevails justice all the time.

Neo, no matter how you want to look at it, you are ranking sin. You are ranking yours one way, and then potential sin (genocide) another way. What scripture are you using to do this? The scriptures that list such sins, lump them all togeter. It list liars with murderers together. Rev. 21:8. Jesus said that lust was adultery, anger was murder. All of the ten commands had the penalty of death.

J, the scriptures lump them together because it is not written in the sense of a justice code, like the O.T law was written. The ten commandments may demand the death penalty but not the rest of the law, some cases did, some did not. There were specifics for situations in the O.T. Things like that are nowhere in N.T because naturally Christians didn't have a Govt.. at the time neither they had any legal system when these were written down. All they had was the church. They did not address a lot of issues. Jesus didn't address a lot of issues, back in the day there was the local law who dealt with this.

On a spiritual level, I agree sin is sin, yet you seem to be missing the point that continual sin often makes the heart non-repentive. In my, still, short years of ministry, I have extensively witnessed this. Would you agree with me that we should fight sin? Do you think if one fights sin, he can overcome eventually?

A quick question for you, because I really want to understand this and I don't want to misread you as it would not profit our conversation here.
Lets say a Mr. x is saved, leads a good life, goes to church. Falls into temptation and screws his neighbour's wife. Dies in a heart attack while in the midst of adultery. Goes to heaven to stand before God. By your theory, is he saved? Does he get a slap on the wrist or what?

The judgement a believer experiences is not a judgment of condemnation. Believers still sin, and the Lord chastises (disciplines). I experienced this first hand, and still do...The bible says true sons WILL be disciplined. The lost will not. They will not be convicted by the HS. They can not grieve what they do not have...

Are you saying that when I discipline my child, I am revoking her as my daughter? A genuine believer has received Christ, and is baptized by one spirit into one body.

No, J, I am not saying this at all. Discipline would not banish anyone from God's grace. And God's discipline in love, is not something we are arguing here.

Regarding the enola Gay. I mentioned that because many see that as justifiable. Probably not the best example. I have no way of knowing if any of the crew were believers for certain. I do know that if they were, they are not condemned.

Not the best of examples? It is the WORST of examples to justify God's grace, his eternal love for all mankind. And I am quite sad to know that people think it justifiable, the love of Christ that we share, those Japanese did not qualify to have? WOW. Would you in your right mind, in Christ, condemn someone to a nuclear strike? Do you even realize how bad and crazy it sounds. I wonder if God would agree with this notion? That is so unchristian, J. No matter from where you look at it. Even if you think that bombing nukes saved more lives, still it was only the lesser of two evils. No one should ever have to suffer that. Whose spirit is in us? Christ's? Isn't that the same which Jesus told John and James, when the wanted to ask fire from heaven to consume the unbelievers. John and James probably wanted an outcome like Sodom and Gomorrah but they forgot the message they believed.

I'm saying that if ANY beleiver will be condemed (defining this as rejection and repreobate) then you make mockery out of Romans 8:1 and the Gospel in general.

Now here is the problem, "saved by grace alone" doesn't tell the whole story. Repeat it enough times and you might fall into the delusion of thinking, it's ok to sin because you are under grace.The problem is, considering yourself a sinner, despite being bought by the blood of Christ. That is the true mockery of it. Thinking you are a sinner may lead you to commit sin, or when you do sin, justify it by saying, you are just a sinner saved by grace. There is no guarantee that a christian is somehow immune from being deceived, or that the consequences of being deceived are somehow trivial - there is a real possibility that deception if bad enough, can lead to loss of faith or perhaps cause another person to lose faith or prevent them from coming to Christ. And in fact I've known of a number of christians who have become deceived in one way or another, in matter of doctrine.

This is why I quoted James in the first place, cuz he shows that after coming to Christ, our lives should show progress in sanctification. It is not al right to sin, J. Thinking that "saved by grace alone, irrevocably", means, we are grossly overestimating grace; poorly treating sanctification and the justification of our actions in our lives as Christians. The idea that we are not answerable for anything, not accountable for anything once we are saved, is close to an extremely false teaching, if not heresy. The idea of grace is to stop sin, not permit it. The "works" you keep referring to, are works of the law, not of the post salvation, Christian life.

You are confusing the two and then claiming that I am trusting my performance. No, I am not, but for mercy to remain mercy, it should also be justifiable (which is done by Christ on the cross) and also the one who is being granted mercy should not be taking that mercy, as just a formality. If your daughter took your discipline and teaching and mercy towards her as her right, and not change, neither shows any will to, would you still think that mercy remained mercy. No, it became a cover for disobeying. the child has to know, what mercy means, what grace means when they are disciplined. Just like we should. "Saved and always saved" is just the wrong way to put it. You are accountable to your father, you will always be. In the end it is up to him to decide whether you are justified not only by Christ's work but also by your own undertaking of it, you're own intent in accepting that Grace and projecting it into your life. How you handled that beautiful gift of free salvation, till the end. God owes us nothing and to “believe” means to “obey” throughout one’s life; it is not a one-time acceptance of Jesus as Savior.

Look at Mark 13:13:
“All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.” [NIV]

Look again at the second half of that sentence. Jesus is saying that to be saved you must stand firm (for Him) until you die. Conversely He is therefore saying that those who do not stand firm will not be saved! Notice that I am not quoting Paul or any other Apostle or Disciple, but Jesus himself, above all.

How do you relate your beliefs to Matthew 13: 20-21? If a man cannot lose his salvation then why would Jesus say: “When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away”?

You argue on this point that a ‘real’ Christian wouldn’t commit such sin and it is the ‘almost Christians’ who fall foul of this type of entrapment from the enemy. I believe this is wrong. Committed Christians sin for all sorts of reasons. If you say no, then you are saying you can't sin. This again self defeating to your original position. If a Christian sins maliciously, then it is with malice, not "accidental sinning" by which you are erroneously, trying to lump all sin together.

Faith and obedience go hand in hand, J, Rom1:8
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world.

Rom 15:18
For I will not presume to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me, resulting in the obedience of the Gentiles by word and deed

Christians can sin and they often do sin but to believe that a Christian can live any way he likes, is dangerous, J. Look what Paul says

1 cor 9:24-27
24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26 Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize

Disqualified for the Prize? is Paul joking here, J? please explain. Is he doing it unnecessarily or because he thinks that a disqualification could very well happen?

Matthew 7:21
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
Now compare your "save by grace alone" to this. Even Jesus added a "but" here. You just don't believe, you obey, and you don;t only obey, you do the will of the father, and those who are falling short will be left outside.

John 8:31
"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed."
Believing and obeying is a continuous process, not just a one time thing.

consider this

Romans 11:17-23, consider the bold text
"And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again."

The only way you are saved is when you walk in the spirit and not in the flesh. It does not mean that we don't sin, it means that we repent, sanctify our selves and strengthen ourselves when we are weak through God. Not just think "Oh well! I am saved by grace alone." Sure you are, but you are expected to do well, not behave like a sinner.

First Salvation does not = eternal life, it means being saved from the judgement of past sin, and the necessity of current and future sins. Salvation results in holiness. Faith includes fidelity as part of it's definition, and fidelity to God is OBEDIENCE to God, and therefore, obedience, belief, and faith are all a part of how we respond to Gof BEFORE we are saved, and in that we DO recieve salvation. Salvation is freedom from sin.

How do you acount for Rev 3:2
Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God.

James 2:24
You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone
Notice, he is not saying "not by faith", he is saying "not by faith, alone". Action is a part of faith. You don't act wisely, your faith isn't complete. So we receive salvation (free from the judgement of sin ) by grace, I agree with you on this. But you are choosing a very incomplete definition of faith and which if not kept will have consequences, as I showed you above, from the scriptures, even by Jesus' own words. In the end J, what matters is what is in our hearts.

"If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and do not know the truth: but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
Unless we repent of our mistakes/sins, I do not see how we can keep saying, "saved by grace" and behave like sinners, still walking in darkness. These two don't go hand in hand, J. You can say, "I'm a Christian, and I often sin, God's grace will save me", but it is foolish to say, "I'm a Christian and I can do whatever and still come out justified." That is plain nonsense.

[jlay]

Neo,
Actually, I don't disagree with a lot of what you bring up here. The gospel is not an excuse to sin.

regardless of the line, you are saying there is one. yet, you or no one else can scripturally show where the line is. It categorizes sin. It says, "my sins are ok, but this other stuff is over the line." it's self-righteous.

James 2:24
You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone

That is true. james is right on the money. The problem is that many, like yourself, take this to mean eternal standing. James is writing about one's standing before beleivers and the world. People do NOT consider us righteous by what we say, but by how we act. A Christian, as James is saying, SHOULD live out what they have. And I agree.

Disqualified for the Prize? is Paul joking here, J? please explain. Is he doing it unnecessarily or because he thinks that a disqualification could very well happen?

I hope to find more time to address, but heading out for breakfast at family's house for TG. First, is Paul saying only one goes to heaven? Of course not. Did Paul actually abused himself physically? Of course not.

Matthew 7:21
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
Now compare your "save by grace alone" to this. Even Jesus added a "but" here. You just don't believe, you obey, and you don;t only obey, you do the will of the father, and those who are falling short will be left outside.

First, it is not MY "saved by grace alone."
OK, I've already asked you the question which you won't answer. Could you be one of those? Obviously, as a dispensationalist I have a much different view of Christ's words here, particularly pertaining to the "Kingdom." Exegesis, audience, application?

John 8:31
"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed."
Believing and obeying is a continuous process, not just a one time thing.

Are all belivers disciples? If so, how do you scripturally defend this? You are equivocating disciple to mean all saved people. Again, this gets back to applying the scripture. I could go right back to Matt 19. If audience and context matter in Matt. 19 then why not here?

[DannyM]

Brother Neo,

Bro, I think we remain his as long as we want. But again this is something we don't agree on.

The scripture make it perfectly clear:

John 17:2
For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.

Christ gives eternal life to those who are His.

John 6:37-39,44
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

44 No-one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Christ will lose none of those who are His.

This renders your hypotheticals irrelevant, brother.