Atheists are hard to convert

[neo-x]

Ah! brother Danny you disarm me so easily.

Christ gives eternal life to those who are His.

I have no doubt about it.

John 17:2
For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.

This would again go towards only a select group of people and no one else as in John:16 or else the verse would mean, everyone is saved.

Christ gives eternal life to those who are His.

John 6:37-39,44
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

44 No-one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.


Christ will lose none of those who are His.

Yes, but who qualifies to be His?
Also brother, my hypothetical does not gets disqualified at all. It is still a question. Can a saved guy, screwing someone wife, dying in the middle, can go to heaven and be accepted? cuz he accepted Christ before? If you say, yes. Then I can only say, I can not agree. We must be held accountable. Or all else is open to us, bro. Please see the implication of your statement here.

This was the same thing I was talking about on the nuking issue. the potential outcome of that line of thought is, yes if it is justifiable in our minds, then we can nuke them cuz it will save more lives in the long run and if the bombers happened to be Christians and they nuked it then it doesn't matter. They were Christians. Jesus already paid the price of the sin of nuking, for them on the cross. Now, can I nuke someone too? If I am saved irrevocably then sure, my nuking's price must also be paid on the cross. Jesus paid the price of all future sins and since we are sealed, we can not be disowned. This almost makes God trapped in his own word. Justice and mercy are no longer factors. There is a severe glitch here brother. I have nothing against your position but this; we are accountable for our actions. I have absolutely no objection to be saved by grace. But I do not think that saved by grace means, we can do whatever we want without consequences. This is unacceptable.

[DannyM]

Ah! brother Danny you disarm me so easily.

It seems not from what I read below, bro

John 17:2
For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.

This would again go towards only a select group of people and no one else as in John:16 or else the verse would mean, everyone is saved.

John 3:16 (I presume) can not mean that every man head for head is offered salvation. If it did then it would contradict Matthew 7:21-23, John 6:65, John 10:26, John 8:47, John 10:15, John 17:2, John 17:9 and so on.

Christ gives eternal life to those who are His.

Yes, but who qualifies to be His?

Whom ever God has chosen.

Matt. 11:27
All things have been committed to me by my Father. No-one knows the Son except the Father, and no-one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

Also brother, my hypothetical does not gets disqualified at all. It is still a question. Can a saved guy, screwing someone wife, dying in the middle, can go to heaven and be accepted? cuz he accepted Christ before? If you say, yes. Then I can only say, I can not agree. We must be held accountable. Or all else is open to us, bro. Please see the implication of your statement here.

Yes he is saved. And there are no passages in the Bible which state that a saved man can lose his salvation. We’ve danced this dance before, my brother, and the Bible continues to stand firm in this area. If you dropped down dead in the middle of a lie, are you suddenly lost? Why not? Is your lie somehow better than that man’s infidelity? Did Christ die for the lie and not for the infidelity?

This was the same thing I was talking about on the nuking issue. the potential outcome of that line of thought is, yes if it is justifiable in our minds, then we can nuke them cuz it will save more lives in the long run and if the bombers happened to be Christians and they nuked it then it doesn't matter. They were Christians. Jesus already paid the price of the sin of nuking, for them on the cross. Now, can I nuke someone too?

Brother, I’d hate for you to win office in government and be put in a war scenario.

If I am saved irrevocably then sure, my nuking's price must also be paid on the cross. Jesus paid the price of all future sins and since we are sealed, we can not be disowned. This almost makes God trapped in his own word. Justice and mercy are no longer factors. There is a severe glitch here brother. I have nothing against your position but this; we are accountable for our actions. I have absolutely no objection to be saved by grace. But I do not think that saved by grace means, we can do whatever we want without consequences. This is unacceptable.

Of course we will have rewards in heaven, and they will no doubt reflect our lives lived. We are still accountable to God, and let no faith-alone advocate say otherwise. I can go and give you all the verses again on perseverance, bro. Christ does not lose any of His sheep. Christ Himself has testified to this. Christ also intercedes for us, and keeps us faithful.

Romans 8:33-34
33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.

34 Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died— more than that, who was raised to life— is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

God bless

[jlay]

But I do not think that saved by grace means, we can do whatever we want without consequences. This is unacceptable.This would again go towards only a select group of people and no one else as in John:16 or else the verse would mean, everyone is saved.

Salvation, whether you are reformed, armenian, or disp. is towards a select group. None of us think that all are going to have eternal life.

Can a saved guy, screwing someone wife, dying in the middle, can go to heaven and be accepted? cuz he accepted Christ before? If you say, yes. Then I can only say, I can not agree. We must be held accountable. Or all else is open to us, bro. Please see the implication of your statement here.

This is contradictory. You say, WE must be held accountable or else is open to US. No sir, that is what you are saying. The cross was Christ being held accountable for our sins. What is the difference if you are lusting when you die, or lying, or neglecting some good you ought to be doing? Answer: NONE. You are saying that you have to do perform. That it is up to you. So again, do you trust 100% that if you died right now, that you would have eternal life? If so, how? At the end of the day, you don't see your sins as great as those of these hypotheticals.

Anyone who uses salvation as an excuse to sin, is trampling underfoot the gift of God. They are either severly confused, deranged, or were never saved to begin with.

But I do not think that saved by grace means, we can do whatever we want without consequences. This is unacceptable.

No one is saying there aren't consequences. You are saying salvation is revoked. The consequences of a believer persisting in sin is they WILL be chastened. God will not leave them alone. They will suffer loss of fellowship. Like myself, they will be vexed in their spirit. Their conscience will accuse them. Do you trust that God's spirit is working in you, keeping you until the day? Then why don't you trust it to work in other believers?

[DannyM]

So again, do you trust 100% that if you died right now, that you would have eternal life? If so, how? At the end of the day, you don't see your sins as great as those of these hypotheticals.

And what if the cheating man had a good sin/not sin ratio? Or is it the last act or thought that tips the scales in the end, no matter how they weigh?

[neo-x]

Brother, I’d hate for you to win office in government and be put in a war scenario.

Danny! that was me going over the line, bro

[neo-x]

y StMonicaGuideMe on Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:57 am

Ultimately, only God knows our hearts, our intents, our actions, and our will and whether or not we did what we could to line up our lives with what he wants for us. We can presume as much as possible, but none of us can quantify our sins in the eyes of God. Only he knows how we've offended him and in his mercy, he will meet us as long as we reach for him and trust him completely

Indeed Monica, God knows and ultimately he will see is what is in our hearts and reward us.

[neo-x]

Neo,
Actually, I don't disagree with a lot of what you bring up here. The gospel is not an excuse to sin.

So there is something we can finally agree on.

regardless of the line, you are saying there is one. yet, you or no one else can scripturally show where the line is

J, you are spot on, and I agree with you. No one can show the line from scriptures. I however believe that the reason there is no line is because we are not following a dogmatic religion, neither there are any formulas involved. And that is the reason we have the spirit of God and the mind of God to discern our paths, get convicted if we are wrong, repent if we sin, listen to the spirit. But a heart which no longer listens to the spirit will ultimately wander away. Ceasing to walk in the spirit is a yellow line, if not a red one. I believe there are times when each of us perhaps go through such a period and I hope we continue to listen to the spirit of God and mend our ways.

James 2:24
You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone

That is true. james is right on the money. The problem is that many, like yourself, take this to mean eternal standing. James is writing about one's standing before beleivers and the world. People do NOT consider us righteous by what we say, but by how we act. A Christian, as James is saying, SHOULD live out what they have. And I agree.

Agreed as well, Brother.

First, is Paul saying only one goes to heaven? Of course not. Did Paul actually abused himself physically? Of course not.

Yes, I believe he is just giving the idea of striving to go forward with all our hearts, else we be disqualified.

Matthew 7:21
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
Now compare your "save by grace alone" to this. Even Jesus added a "but" here. You just don't believe, you obey, and you don;t only obey, you do the will of the father, and those who are falling short will be left outside.

First, it is not MY "saved by grace alone."
OK, I've already asked you the question which you won't answer. Could you be one of those? Obviously, as a dispensationalist I have a much different view of Christ's words here, particularly pertaining to the "Kingdom." Exegesis, audience, application?

J, while I have nothing against the historical context, audience and application, I do believe this is something which applies to all. Not just the period and time. It is a pretty straight forward verse. If however you would like to share your view, please do so.

About the question, what would happen, if I die tonight, am I saved?
Well, I'll let God be the judge of that. I have hope, that is all I have. What Christ did is the only thing that saved me from the bondage of sin and eternal damnation. I never said I trusted my works, as you have said number of times. I said that perhaps the tenth time now. Will God reward me according to my work which has been done in his name? Yes. Will I be accountable for the things I am not too proud of, yes. I will be. Will my salvation be revoked? that is for God to decide. There are no formulas, there is no balancing scale.

Saved, is a process. It starts when we come to Christ, ends when we will lay claim to our eternal inheritance. The verses I quoted tell me this. You hold a different position and so you will of course, not agree. That is fine, J. I take Mark 13:13: quite literally,
“All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.” [NIV]
I do not know about you, or what you think about this verse, but my understanding is clear on this. God gives and he can take it away. Of course God will not go against his promises, but God won't be cheated as well.

John 8:31
"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed."
Believing and obeying is a continuous process, not just a one time thing.
Are all belivers disciples? If so, how do you scripturally defend this? You are equivocating disciple to mean all saved people. Again, this gets back to applying the scripture. I could go right back to Matt 19. If audience and context matter in Matt. 19 then why not here?

Going back to Matt 19 won't hurt a bit, J, if God asks you to do that, wouldn't you do it? If he'd ask me, I'd do it. the only difference is, I believe not in formulas, just like you. When the spirit of God guides us to do something, shouldn't we do it? And we both know, giving charity won't give anyone salvation, so that point is irrelevant. And Why not see Matt 28, if the audience would matter then the verses would only mean that Jesus is talking about the 12 he has or people like them, not the rest of the "congregation" people. I mean, it is not that water has the same meaning throughout the scriptures, does it? As you said earlier, regardless for what audience the gospel was written, it does hold universal application, not at all places, but some places. Now the rest is up to our incomplete knowledge to decide which of the ones we think applies to us. You exegesis makes you see something different, mine is a bit different. As a mater of fact, we almost agree on everything, except a few.

Anyone who uses salvation as an excuse to sin, is trampling underfoot the gift of God. They are either severly confused, deranged, or were never saved to begin with.

Ahh, J, this is the tricky part. while what you said is very true. I must say, that what guarantee is there that a "true" believer won't sin or won't be led to temptation to sin again and again. I have said it previously, you are not God, unless you can look down at the heart of men and see why they do what they do, your claim remains open to debate because of this inherent problem. Believers sin all the time, J. Down this road, anyone who sins much, gets up labeled by you "not saved to begin with", now if you look at it, you are almost doing the same thing as you think I do, making people's sin revoking their salvation.

J, now look at your point , "If you are saved, you are saved". Now don't change positions. If you sin and sin and sin, you are still saved. That is what your claim represents, J. Salvation is irrevocable, works do not matter, sin do not matter. Like myself, you are now trying to bind good deeds to your claim? why? saved means saved, if afterwards you sin, that has no bearing on you salvation, right? This is what you have been saying all along and then why are you now saying that people are confused, deranged, or were never saved to begin with if they sin after they are saved. According to you , their performance does not matter, even if they sin, they will be disciplined, vexed in the spirit, corrected but ultimately saved. See how you are now saying the same thing as me. Only you are not putting people out of their salvation from the time we would all stand before God, you are ruling them out, right now. You are doing the same thing J. You think if you are saved, even nuking a city is not a gonna change that, so now hold to it, J. Don't complain if people sin, they will be vexed, disciplined, corrected, like you, but they will all be saved. This is what your claim presents. You may not see the problematic part, but I do. And I agree with you, my position has problems too. I am not denying that. But to me it makes more sense, because in it, God becomes the final judge, not your "irrevocable salvation". he sees my heart, he sees it with Mercy which Christ showed me, and that is all I ask.

No one is saying there aren't consequences. You are saying salvation is revoked.

Well, if there are no consequences that affect salvation, then that is trivial if there are any consequences at all.

I mean, If I die while speaking a lie, I will be bloody, responsible for it before God. He will decide what should be done. You just piratically put an adulterer into God's holy presence, because he had been saved some times ago, wow. So even if he did adultery, died in the midst of it, it doesn't matter. You are claiming something and you are not willing to accept the implications it presents. Is there no such thing as Justice before God?

What is the difference if you are lusting when you die, or lying, or neglecting some good you ought to be doing? A

None. The only difference is, I at least have the sense of responsibility to own up to what I did. The guy who screws his neighbour's wife and still goes to heaven, will laugh at me because of my stupid thoughts. Hell, he'll probably wink at me while he says this "Irrevocable salvation, dude, you should have gotten the same. I screwed that lady, and I am still here, and guess what I did that after I came to Christ." If this guy can enter heaven J, then you and me are real fools to spend our lives according to the fruits of the spirit. I mean, if you are saved, you are saved, it don't matter what you do afterwards, Jesus paid the price for all sins, past, present, future. You are just assuming everyone takes it like you. No, some people just lack that good sense of balance in their lives. And according to you, no sin is big enough to override grace, there is no line. So saved is saved under all circumstances, Enola gay, Mai le, whatever, it doesn't matter. That is the only reason I never switched side to this view J. It become completely illogical at this point.

Look at the double speak, J. you are saying there are consequences, but you are not accountable. What kind of consequences are those which don't even hold you accountable? Does that even makes sense? They might as well be fake or not be,at all. If you are saved the only consequence is you are saved, nothing else matters. But if you go with this, J, go with it all the way, don't judge people on their performance, on their sin, on their neglect at being Christians, who trample the gospel under their feet, they will be saved, just like you. After all, you sin as well, I do, we all do. what makes you think your sin, is not as offensive as theirs so that you mark them "not saved to begin with".

Also brother, my hypothetical does not gets disqualified at all. It is still a question. Can a saved guy, screwing someone wife, dying in the middle, can go to heaven and be accepted? cuz he accepted Christ before? If you say, yes. Then I can only say, I can not agree. We must be held accountable. Or all else is open to us, bro. Please see the implication of your statement here.


Yes he is saved. And there are no passages in the Bible which state that a saved man can lose his salvation. We’ve danced this dance before, my brother, and the Bible continues to stand firm in this area. If you dropped down dead in the middle of a lie, are you suddenly lost? Why not? Is your lie somehow better than that man’s infidelity? Did Christ die for the lie and not for the infidelity?

Brother Danny, my sin is not an excuse for justifying his sin, my sin is my sin, whether that be a lie. I believe I will be accountable to God for it. As he will be for his. For God is holy, the Bible clearly says, adulterers will not enter the kingdom of God. You have read that, haven't you? The bible never distinguishes whether it is a "saved" guy who committed adultery or not. Sin is sin, regardless of who does it, you, me, a Muslim or a Sikh.

1 Corinthians 6:9 There are passages in the Bible, Brother Danny which say that a man can lose his salvation, like this one"
"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders"

Who is Paul addressing, unbelievers? No, he is addressing Christians that they should not be partakers in any of these thing because if they do they will not inherit anything. What he is saying? that we can't commit adultery, no, he is saying that a sin like that has no favour in the eyes of God and that goes the same for the one who committed it, whether that be Christian or Gentile, and especially if he is a Christian, do not be deceived. Sin can penetrate anyone, if his guard is let down. So I don't agree with this brother Danny, he may be saved, he may be forgiven but he might also be punished. The scripture is quite clear.

God bless you guys.

[jlay]

Neo, I've never tried to bond good works. You are imposing your assumptions over what I am saying. I never said a person can lose their salvation by sinning.

This is what your claim presents. You may not see the problematic part, but I do. And I agree with you, my position has problems too. I am not denying that. But to me it makes more sense, because in it, God becomes the final judge, not your "irrevocable salvation". he sees my heart, he sees it with Mercy which Christ showed me, and that is all I ask.

Sorry Neo, but ultimately you are doing what you accuse me of doing. You are saying who God can save. That the actions on the outside are your window to their heart and whether or not God has abandoned them. That God is limited by our actions. I agree God sees the heart. And He knows if that person truly received Christ.

What I am saying, is all to often we take for granted just what salvation is, and is from. We forget how offended the religious people were at the cross. The idea that vile, filthy sinners could be completely forgiven. A question Paul obviously had to deal with.

But a heart which no longer listens to the spirit will ultimately wander away.

I don't disagree that people wander away. Our disagreement is that you see them as lost, and condemned. I trust God when He says He won't lose one, and will keep us till the day. It also impunes the work of the HS in a believer. (Eph 1:13)

Going back to Matt 19 won't hurt a bit, J, if God asks you to do that, wouldn't you do it? If he'd ask me, I'd do it.

I would never be so bold as to make a claim. But if you think you would then feel free to boast. The real question is would you be lost if you refused, or failed?

I mean, If I die while speaking a lie, I will be bloody, responsible for it before God. He will decide what should be done. You just piratically put an adulterer into God's holy presence, because he had been saved some times ago, wow. So even if he did adultery, died in the midst of it, it doesn't matter. You are claiming something and you are not willing to accept the implications it presents. Is there no such thing as Justice before God

Let me get this straight. So you are NOT trusting that Chirst dealt with ALL sin at the cross? "He saved us and called us to be his own people, not because of what we have done, but because of his own purpose and grace. He gave us this grace by means of Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, " 2 Tim. 1:9

You can list all the absurd scenarios you like. Either Christ was the propitiation for sin, or He was for only some of it. Either faith in Christ is what places one inot the body of Christ, or religious performance is what does it. You think you can mention these uncomfortable scenarios, but a beleiver is either trsuting Christ, or He is trusting His own will power and sourcing to 'stay' saved..

1 Corinthians 6:9 There are passages in the Bible, Brother Danny which say that a man can lose his salvation, like this one"
"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders"

He we are again equivocating salvation and the Kingdom. Paul talks about salvation a lot, but where does he mention it with the 'Kingdom.'
Just apply your interpretation across the board . Gal 5:19,20,21; Eph 5:5, Rev. 21:8 Are you making the cut?

[DannyM]

1 Corinthians 6:9 There are passages in the Bible, Brother Danny which say that a man can lose his salvation, like this one"
"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders"

If this says that a man can lose his salvation, then Jesus was wrong, and our Lord is rendered practically incompetent.

John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

You are born again and living under grace, brother Neo.

Romans 7:14-25
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.

15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.

16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.

17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.

18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do— this I keep on doing.

20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me.

22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law;

23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.

24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

25 Thanks be to God— through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Paul was pretty emphatic, bro. You are saved from sin. You are under grace. This wonderful thing is received not with a thumb of the nose, but with complete gratitude.

[StMonicaGuideMe]

My brothers, from your posts, I believe this is a case of over-analyzing Jesus taught us not to be obstinate in sin, thus even a baptized man can lose his soul. I think suggesting that we can't lose our salvation once we accept Christ is somewhat arrogant (I mean no offense). What of continued temptation? Satan and his minions are more powerful than us, and can roam the world freely since our sin opened this dominion to them. They use our weaknesses against us as much as they can, even in the smallest things. They may be cowardly, but they are far more intelligent than we are. And, let's not forget that the closer we are to Christ, the greater temptations we will endure. Why would he bother tempting those who are "already his"? Thus, if we let him tempt us to the point where we reject God on a continual basis, with FULL KNOWLEDGE that we are doing it (ignorance can't save us if we've been given the Truth), then I really don't think it's that irrational to presume that God would hold that person accountable.

An example to illustrate this: a member of my family was very religious growing up, but unfortunately was misguided in some other ways. She's been through two marriages and recently, since the last dissolved, decided she's going to do whatever she wants, whenever she wants, with whomever she wants (and that included sleeping with my husbands brother the night before our wedding). She then acts sanctimonious when going to church. You think God is going to look at that behaviour and reward it? She's slapping the gift He gave her away. God is a Just God and if we take His mercy for granted, it would not be in his nature to reward us for something we haven't even TRIED to earn. It's one thing to try and earn it, it's another to say one deserves it but does nothing to attempt it.

Do you think Judas, who betrayed Christ, ended up in heaven? Not only did he betray Jesus, but he then killed himself. I'm not saying I know for sure, but based on what we know...

[RickD]

StMonica,
While reading your last post, a few things you said stood out to me. I'm just going on what I understand you to be saying, so, please correct me if I'm not being accurate with what you mean.

thus even a baptized man can lose his soul.

I know we've been over this before, but one doesn't gain eternal life from water baptism. Water baptism, is an outward symbol, of the inward baptism, that all true believers receive when they believe the gospel of Christ.

I think suggesting that we can't lose our salvation once we accept Christ is somewhat arrogant

from thefreedictionary.com:

ar·ro·gant (r-gnt)
adj.
1. Having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance.
2. Marked by or arising from a feeling or assumption of one's superiority toward others:

Once a true believer accepts the gospel of Jesus Christ, he is sealed with a pledge from God. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit. A down payment from God, that His promise of eternal life to us is guaranteed.
Ephesians 1:13-14: 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
2Corinthians 1:22 :set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
Ephesians 2:8-9: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [a]that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

That, is the opposite of arrogance, StMonica. There is no feeling of self-importance, in what God has given us by His Grace alone. We don't deserve His Grace.

a member of my family was very religious growing up, but unfortunately was misguided in some other ways.

Being religious, doesn't mean one is necessarily saved. Being religious just shows that one is striving for God's approval. Being religious, in many cases, is man trying to reach God, by his own works.

God is a Just God and if we take His mercy for granted, it would not be in his nature to reward us for something we haven't even TRIED to earn. It's one thing to try and earn it, it's another to say one deserves it but does nothing to attempt it.

That's the difference between works based religion, and the efficacious work of Christ. We can't earn it. We can't gain salvation by earning it. And, we can't keep salvation by earning it.
Those who believe a true, Holy Spirit sealed Christian, can lose his salvation, all have one thing in common. They all believe in some kind of "works-based" salvation. They believe works of man, are needed to gain salvation, keep salvation, or both.
That makes Christ's work, and God's promises, for the true child of God, effectively meaningless.
StMonica, I hope you will think, and pray about this.

[DannyM]

That's the difference between works based religion, and the efficacious work of Christ. We can't earn it. We can't gain salvation by earning it. And, we can't keep salvation by earning it.

Those who believe a true, Holy Spirit sealed Christian, can lose his salvation, all have one thing in common. They all believe in some kind of "works-based" salvation. They believe works of man, are needed to gain salvation, keep salvation, or both.

That makes Christ's work, and God's promises, for the true child of God, effectively meaningless.

Precisely, Rick. If it is arrogant to take our Saviour's word that He will keep me and shield me until He raises me, then so be it. But where I come from that is not what arrogance is. It is complete and utter trust, even though I am underserving, in Christ. That's what receiving the gift is - are you willing to drop all your defences and embrace this gift?

[jlay]

Monica,
I would say your problem comes with confusing religion with salvation. The Pharisees were more religious than anyone in your family, and they were as lost as could be. Religion performance does not equal salvation. Poor behavior does not negate it.

the arrogant part is to say that YOUR actions have more power than Christ's actions, which is what you are saying.

Believing that one is forever saved and kept is true faith. It is trusting Christ exclusively.

Do you think Judas, who betrayed Christ, ended up in heaven? Not only did he betray Jesus, but he then killed himself. I'm not saying I know for sure, but based on what we know...

I don't know if Judas was saved or not. During Judas' time, things were still operating under Israel's economy. A different program was in effect.

If you want God to hold people accountable, then include yourself. Why is it OK that Christ died for some of your sins, but not all? Grace really is that big. Religion is always a substitute to add to the finished work of Christ. Christ + (fill in the blank) = salvation.

[Proinsias]

Religion is always a substitute to add to the finished work of Christ. Christ + (fill in the blank) = salvation.

Like the idea it is necessary to believe in it to attain it.

[StMonicaGuideMe]

My friends, we really need not look any further than Matthew 7:22-23: "Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity".

Saying "depart from me" does NOT sound like guaranteed salvation, especially since it's geared towards those who claim Christ as their saviour Note he said "many". He did not specify what kind of people they are, but we can assume, based on the people speaking, that they would claim themselves to ultimately be followers of Christ.

Jlay, I stated previously that I do hold myself accountable. I also never suggested that Christ died for only some people's sins.

My problem lies with the assumption that we can just accept Christ and then do nothing about it. This alone is the major issue I have with predestination, and many people believe they can act however they want once they've "accepted Christ". Trust is one thing. Presumption is another.

Rick, to clarify, I've mentioned before that water baptism isn't necessary to be "baptized". I even gave the example of "in an emergency" a lay person can baptize without water, with simple words. I do believe, however, based on the example we were given in the Bible of Christ's own baptism, the tradition of water (or oil) baptism would be respectful of what he experienced.
Is full submersion necessary? I don't think so. Is a little dribble required? I don't know. These are little details that I don't think ultimately matter. But a public profession of faith is required and this is biblically supported. Thus, the "sacrament" of baptism was created; the tradition to mirror Christ's own baptism and the public profession of faith. Put in a blender and serve warm (Oh lord I hope that wasn't sacrilegious O.O)

Followers of Christ presume His Mercy & His salvation all the time and act according to their own desires and will. I can't tell you how many Christians I've met who say they are "saved", believe that since they've accepted "Christ as their personal lord and saviour" and then proceed to party, use drugs, sleep around, and even worse things. Not only is that completely stupid, but it's hypocrisy at it's finest. Do you really think God will be pleased with these people using his name, wearing his cross around their necks and proceeding to disgrace not only themselves, His creation, but Him as well?

My statement has been incorrectly evaluated to come to the conclusion that it's arrogant to say my actions have more power than Christs.
I am a sinful creature. Period. God is perfect and should be surrounded by perfection and perfect love. If I am an imperfect being, I fail to see how it's arrogance to state that I am unworthy to be in His presence unless I am 100% clean. And if I've done things INTENTIONALLY to prevent cleanliness, then why exactly should God extend his hand to me if I keep slapping it away? Forgiveness is a tricky thing -- even God cannot do it until we ask Him to.

Arrogance is exactly up the ally of our human nature and thus, saved or not, is something we all fall victim to. Arrogance comes from pride -- arrogance is what caused Lucifer to fall -- and he was closer to God than any of us here. Thus I think it's dangerous to contend that we are somehow immune from falling simply because we've "chosen Christ".

I am not confusing religion with salvation -- at all. What I am contending simply comes down to our human nature and our innate ability to give into that more than our spiritual callings. "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak".

In practice in the Christian's life, arrogance/pride comes from the presumption of God's mercy regardless of what we do. I'm not talking about someone who is religious, a truly faithful person, who, though they still sin, do everything possible to act according to the will of God.

My point was that if we do NOT act in this way, religious, not religious, merely spiritual, whatever the semantics you want to use, is that is a presumption and abuse of God's mercy which He will not tolerate. God will not be mocked.