Catholic Stuff

[Byblos]

Careful there - almost sounding like a Catholic.

Lol, Silver, I thought exactly the same thing when I read your earlier post:

Jesus needed to be untainted by the fall and so needed a supernatural conception to be completely sinless from the start.

You sound totally Catholic my friend.

Mary was human. Nothing special about her at all apart from being chosen by God to be the mother of Jesus. Mary needed salvation from Jesus just as much as we do.

FYI, nothing you said here disagrees with the Catholic Marian doctrine. Of course Mary was human and needed saving, you will not find anywhere in any Catholic literature anything that says otherwise. But as you said, since Jesus needed to be untainted by the fall and completely sinless from the start, we believe he also needed a sinless vessel, not through her own powers, but through God's grace who chose her from before creation to be His son's mother. At the center of the Marian doctrine is the defense of Jesus' divinity on one side, and his humanness on the other (fully God and full human). Mary needed saving and we believe she was saved by her son before she was born.

[RickD]

Byblos wrote:

Mary needed saving and we believe she was saved by her son before she was born.

Please show me where the bible says this, Byblos.

[Byblos]

Byblos wrote:

Mary needed saving and we believe she was saved by her son before she was born.

Please show me where the bible says this, Byblos.

Luke 1:28, although the NAV does not do the translation any justice at all.

Of course there is an abundance of indirect reference comparing Eve (the first Eve) and Mary (the second Eve and Ark of the Covenant) as in Adam and Jesus (the second Adam and the new and everlasting Covenant).

[RickD]

Luke 1:28, although the NAV does not do the translation any justice at all

New International Version (©1984)
The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."

New Living Translation (©2007)
Gabriel appeared to her and said, "Greetings, favored woman! The Lord is with you!"

English Standard Version (©2001)
And he came to her and said, “Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!”

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
And coming in, he said to her, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you."

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

International Standard Version (©2008)
The angel came to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you!"

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
The Angel entered her presence, and he said to her, “Peace to you, full of grace, our Lord is with you; you are blessed among women.”

GOD'S WORD Translation (©1995)
When the angel entered her home, he greeted her and said, "You are favored by the Lord! The Lord is with you."

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, you that are highly favored, the Lord is with you: blessed are you among women.

American King James Version
And the angel came in to her, and said, Hail, you that are highly favored, the Lord is with you: blessed are you among women.

American Standard Version
And he came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee.

Bible in Basic English
And the angel came in to her and said, Peace be with you, to whom special grace has been given; the Lord is with you.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Darby Bible Translation
And the angel came in to her, and said, Hail, thou favoured one! the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou amongst women.

English Revised Version
And he came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee.

Webster's Bible Translation
And the angel came to her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Weymouth New Testament
So Gabriel went into the house and said to her, "Joy be to you, favoured one! the Lord is with you."

World English Bible
Having come in, the angel said to her, "Rejoice, you highly favored one! The Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women!"

Young's Literal Translation
And the messenger having come in unto her, said, 'Hail, favoured one, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women;

Take your pick of any of these translations, Byblos. I still don't see this:

Mary needed saving and we believe she was saved by her son before she was born.

You'll have to do better than that.

[RickD]

Of course there is an abundance of indirect reference comparing Eve (the first Eve) and Mary

Please refer me to scripture regarding this also, Byblos.

[RickD]

Byblos, If you can show me from scripture:

1)Mary needed saving and we believe she was saved by her son before she was born.

2)Of course there is an abundance of indirect reference comparing Eve (the first Eve) and Mary

Or anything at all that backs up the Catholic belief of the "Immaculate Conception", then I'll agree with you. Please, Byblos. It's simple. Just show me where the bible says these things.

[Byblos]

Luke 1:28, although the NAV does not do the translation any justice at all

New International Version (©1984)
The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."

New Living Translation (©2007)
Gabriel appeared to her and said, "Greetings, favored woman! The Lord is with you!"

English Standard Version (©2001)
And he came to her and said, “Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!”

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
And coming in, he said to her, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you."

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

International Standard Version (©2008)
The angel came to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you!"

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
The Angel entered her presence, and he said to her, “Peace to you, full of grace, our Lord is with you; you are blessed among women.”

GOD'S WORD Translation (©1995)
When the angel entered her home, he greeted her and said, "You are favored by the Lord! The Lord is with you."

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, you that are highly favored, the Lord is with you: blessed are you among women.

American King James Version
And the angel came in to her, and said, Hail, you that are highly favored, the Lord is with you: blessed are you among women.

American Standard Version
And he came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee.

Bible in Basic English
And the angel came in to her and said, Peace be with you, to whom special grace has been given; the Lord is with you.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Darby Bible Translation
And the angel came in to her, and said, Hail, thou favoured one! the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou amongst women.

English Revised Version
And he came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee.

Webster's Bible Translation
And the angel came to her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Weymouth New Testament
So Gabriel went into the house and said to her, "Joy be to you, favoured one! the Lord is with you."

World English Bible
Having come in, the angel said to her, "Rejoice, you highly favored one! The Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women!"

Young's Literal Translation
And the messenger having come in unto her, said, 'Hail, favoured one, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women;

Take your pick of any of these translations, Byblos. I still don't see this:

Mary needed saving and we believe she was saved by her son before she was born.

You'll have to do better than that.

Of course you don't see it, considering the translation source of ALL of the above. The actual Greek salutation used is "chaire kecharitomene" and the closest literal translation would render it "Hail, full of grace" which indicates a unique and abundant grace.

Of course there is an abundance of indirect reference comparing Eve (the first Eve) and Mary

Please refer me to scripture regarding this also, Byblos.

Click here.

[RickD]

Of course you don't see it, considering the translation source of ALL of the above. The actual Greek salutation used is "chaire kecharitomene" and the closest literal translation would render it "Hail, full of grace" which indicates a unique and abundant grace.

Oh, so you're saying that "full of grace" really means "Mary needed saving and we believe she was saved by her son before she was born." Sorry, Byblos. Just because God chose Mary to be the mother of the man Jesus, that doesn't mean Mary was without sin, and immaculately conceived.
The bible speaks of Jesus being conceived by the Holy Spirit. Certainly, there must be at least one bible verse that says Mary was conceived without sin. Just show me where the bible says this.

There's no way I can read that entire link, Byblos.

Please just show me scripture to prove what I asked. Simple scripture, Byblos.

[Byblos]

Of course you don't see it, considering the translation source of ALL of the above. The actual Greek salutation used is "chaire kecharitomene" and the closest literal translation would render it "Hail, full of grace" which indicates a unique and abundant grace.

Oh, so you're saying that "full of grace" really means "Mary needed saving and we believe she was saved by her son before she was born." Sorry, Byblos. Just because God chose Mary to be the mother of the man Jesus, that doesn't mean Mary was without sin, and immaculately conceived.
The bible speaks of Jesus being conceived by the Holy Spirit. Certainly, there must be at least one bible verse that says Mary was conceived without sin. Just show me where the bible says this.

There's no way I can read that entire link, Byblos.

Please just show me scripture to prove what I asked. Simple scripture, Byblos.

Rick, the other link was for the other 'abundance' of references you asked for prophesying Mary in the OT and comparing her to Eve (more like comparing Eve to Mary). As for scriptural proof of her immaculate conception, there is none. Just as there is none for the Trinity either. Do you have a problem believing in the Trinity?

[RickD]

Rick, the other link was for the other 'abundance' of references you asked for prophesying Mary in the OT and comparing her to Eve (more like comparing Eve to Mary). As for scriptural proof of her immaculate conception, there is none. Just as there is none for the Trinity either. Do you have a problem believing in the Trinity?

You're saying that there's no biblical basis or proof of the trinity? Byblos, the word "trinity" isn't in the bible. That doesn't mean the concept of the trinity isn't in the bible. A simple google search of "trinity verses in the bible", will reveal that the trinity is indeed biblical. While the term, "immaculate conception" isn't in the bible, all I'm looking for, is the bible verses that show the concept of the immaculate conception of Mary. It's such an important part of the Catholic religion. I just need you to show me where it is in the bible. It shouldn't be that difficult.

[Byblos]

Rick, the other link was for the other 'abundance' of references you asked for prophesying Mary in the OT and comparing her to Eve (more like comparing Eve to Mary). As for scriptural proof of her immaculate conception, there is none. Just as there is none for the Trinity either. Do you have a problem believing in the Trinity?

You're saying that there's no biblical basis or proof of the trinity? Byblos, the word "trinity" isn't in the bible. That doesn't mean the concept of the trinity isn't in the bible. A simple google search of "trinity verses in the bible", will reveal that the trinity is indeed biblical. While the term, "immaculate conception" isn't in the bible, all I'm looking for, is the bible verses that show the concept of the immaculate conception of Mary. It's such an important part of the Catholic religion. I just need you to show me where it is in the bible. It shouldn't be that difficult.

So it's okay for scripture to show the Trinity not directly but as a concept and it's not okay for scripture to show the immaculate conception as a concept? Who makes those arbitrary decisions Rick?

[RickD]

Rick, the other link was for the other 'abundance' of references you asked for prophesying Mary in the OT and comparing her to Eve (more like comparing Eve to Mary). As for scriptural proof of her immaculate conception, there is none. Just as there is none for the Trinity either. Do you have a problem believing in the Trinity?

You're saying that there's no biblical basis or proof of the trinity? Byblos, the word "trinity" isn't in the bible. That doesn't mean the concept of the trinity isn't in the bible. A simple google search of "trinity verses in the bible", will reveal that the trinity is indeed biblical. While the term, "immaculate conception" isn't in the bible, all I'm looking for, is the bible verses that show the concept of the immaculate conception of Mary. It's such an important part of the Catholic religion. I just need you to show me where it is in the bible. It shouldn't be that difficult.

So it's okay for scripture to show the Trinity not directly but as a concept and it's not okay for scripture to show the immaculate conception as a concept? Who makes those arbitrary decisions Rick?

Byblos, the concept of the trinity is shown directly, in the bible.
Matthew 28:19
1 John 5:7
Luke 3:22
John 1:1
Rom 8:9
2 Cor 13:14
1 Peter 1:1-2
Romans 14:17-18
1 Corinthians 2:2-5; 6:11; 12:4-6; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 2:18-22; 3:14-19; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:6-8; 1Thessalonians 1:3-5; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; Titus 3:4-6

I'm not saying that the immaculate conception isn't shown directly. I'm just asking you to show me where the bible shows it. That's all. It's really simple, Byblos. If the immaculate conception is biblical, then it will be in the bible. Just show me where, because I honestly must be overlooking it.

[Byblos]

Rick, the other link was for the other 'abundance' of references you asked for prophesying Mary in the OT and comparing her to Eve (more like comparing Eve to Mary). As for scriptural proof of her immaculate conception, there is none. Just as there is none for the Trinity either. Do you have a problem believing in the Trinity?

You're saying that there's no biblical basis or proof of the trinity? Byblos, the word "trinity" isn't in the bible. That doesn't mean the concept of the trinity isn't in the bible. A simple google search of "trinity verses in the bible", will reveal that the trinity is indeed biblical. While the term, "immaculate conception" isn't in the bible, all I'm looking for, is the bible verses that show the concept of the immaculate conception of Mary. It's such an important part of the Catholic religion. I just need you to show me where it is in the bible. It shouldn't be that difficult.

So it's okay for scripture to show the Trinity not directly but as a concept and it's not okay for scripture to show the immaculate conception as a concept? Who makes those arbitrary decisions Rick?

Byblos, the concept of the trinity is shown directly, in the bible.
Matthew 28:19
1 John 5:7
Luke 3:22
John 1:1
Rom 8:9
2 Cor 13:14
1 Peter 1:1-2
Romans 14:17-18
1 Corinthians 2:2-5; 6:11; 12:4-6; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 2:18-22; 3:14-19; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:6-8; 1Thessalonians 1:3-5; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; Titus 3:4-6

Rick, I hate to tell you this but none of the above show the Trinity directly. The Trinity is a revealed truth by derivation, not by direct scripture. There are plenty of so-called Christian groups that do not believe in the Trinity, JWs and Christadelphians are but 2. They will argue their point of view using the same scripture you are quoting. Another thing I hate to tell you but if you believe in the Trinity then you have given tacit approval to Tradition as well as authority but that's for a more private discussion.

I'm not saying that the immaculate conception isn't shown directly. I'm just asking you to show me where the bible shows it. That's all. It's really simple, Byblos. If the immaculate conception is biblical, then it will be in the bible. Just show me where, because I honestly must be overlooking it.

I can refer you to yet another link re: the immaculate conception but if you don't have time to read it let me know and I will try to summarize it but it will take some time. Of particular attention is Mary's prophecy in Genesis.