Atheists are hard to convert

[Byblos]

Perhaps the Bible and our Saviour's promise is just not enough for some...

That's a nice soundbite at Catholic-heresy Bible study night and all, but come on Danny, give me just a tad more credit than that.

[RickD]

Most non-Arminians maybe.

Not sure what you mean by this?

But just as a quick answer, repentant sinners are not considered dead and the pahrisees were never considered sons.

All sinners are considered "dead to sin", until they're made alive in Christ. So, that is why the father considered his son dead, in the parable.

Byblos, if the elder son is not a pharisee, then who does he represent?

[DannyM]

As far as I'm concerned there is no such thing as losing one's salvation as salvation is not actually obtained until the end

I'm telling you I cannot be absolutely sure that I will be [saved]. I know if I die today, I am. Can I be sure what I will do 10 years from now? No I can't.

John, this goes against what Jesus actually said:

John 6:37-39,44
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

44 No-one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

How exactly might Jesus 'lose' you, brother?

Perhaps the Bible and our Saviour's promise is just not enough for some...

That's a nice soundbite at Catholic-heresy Bible study night and all, but come on Danny, give me just a tad more credit than that.

Catholic heresy? Where?! John, I said that after reading through all I have missed, and it wasn't aimed at you particularly, but rather the general theme running through the threrad.

[Byblos]

As far as I'm concerned there is no such thing as losing one's salvation as salvation is not actually obtained until the end

I'm telling you I cannot be absolutely sure that I will be [saved]. I know if I die today, I am. Can I be sure what I will do 10 years from now? No I can't.

John, this goes against what Jesus actually said:

John 6:37-39,44
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

44 No-one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

How exactly might Jesus 'lose' you, brother?

Jesus will not lose who are his. I will not know for sure I am his because I can walk away of my own volition (or in your language, I can always prove I never was his).

Perhaps the Bible and our Saviour's promise is just not enough for some...

That's a nice soundbite at Catholic-heresy Bible study night and all, but come on Danny, give me just a tad more credit than that.

Catholic heresy? Where?! John, I said that after reading through all I have missed, and it wasn't aimed at you particularly, but rather the general theme running through the threrad.

Sorry brother, I just took it as a reply to my last post. I must be getting think-skinned in my old age.

[jlay]

With any allegory, parable, etc. we have to look at what is being conveyed. THis is a fundemental difference in how RCC handle the word of truth verses following a historical grammatical hermanuetic. Rick, maybe Byb will surprise me, but I don't know that you are going to get that question answered. Taking a parable that was directed towards an Israel that was in captivity due to its covenant breaking, and applying this to the loss of salvation for post crucifixion gentiles is out of bounds, IMO.

As far as I'm concerned there is no such thing as losing one's salvation as salvation is not actually obtained until the end.

Yet you say, "Today I am." Byb, we're mincing words and arguing symantics. You can't say you are saved today, and then might not be in the future, and then out of the other side of your mouth say that one can't "lose" their salvation. It just isn't consistent. Bottom line, is you are NOT trusting Christ to keep you. You are trusting religious performance. I don't see any way around it.

[DannyM]

John 6:37-39,44
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

44 No-one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

How exactly might Jesus 'lose' you, brother?

Jesus will not lose who are his. I will not know for sure I am his because I can walk away of my own volition (or in your language, I can always prove I never was his).

John, if you cannot ‘know’ then the gospel message must be pretty flaky.

Romans 8:33-34
33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.

34 Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died— more than that, who was raised to life— is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

You are as safe as safe can be, my brother. I just don’t see how anybody can be ‘unsure’…

Sorry brother, I just took it as a reply to my last post. I must be getting think-skinned in my old age.

Brother you’ve always been a thinker

[Byblos]

John, if you cannot ‘know’ then the gospel message must be pretty flaky.

Romans 8:33-34
33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.

34 Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died— more than that, who was raised to life— is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

You are as safe as safe can be, my brother. I just don’t see how anybody can be ‘unsure’…

Does Jesus intercede for the elect? Why?

There is no scripture you can show me Danny that says one cannot walk away or one cannot prove they were never saved to begin with.

[Byblos]

With any allegory, parable, etc. we have to look at what is being conveyed. THis is a fundemental difference in how RCC handle the word of truth verses following a historical grammatical hermanuetic. Rick, maybe Byb will surprise me, but I don't know that you are going to get that question answered. Taking a parable that was directed towards an Israel that was in captivity due to its covenant breaking, and applying this to the loss of salvation for post crucifixion gentiles is out of bounds, IMO.

The message is still universal, irrespective of the audience, otherwise the whole Gospel doesn't make sense.

As far as I'm concerned there is no such thing as losing one's salvation as salvation is not actually obtained until the end.

Yet you say, "Today I am." Byb, we're mincing words and arguing symantics. You can't say you are saved today, and then might not be in the future, and then out of the other side of your mouth say that one can't "lose" their salvation. It just isn't consistent. Bottom line, is you are NOT trusting Christ to keep you. You are trusting religious performance. I don't see any way around it.

Or perhaps you are still misunderstanding what I'm saying. Salvation is determined AT DEATH, not before. Once I become a member of Christ's family I rely on God's graces (not on anything I can do or boast about) to keep me as an heir to the inheritance. I can decide to walk away out of my own volition, but God's promise is always there. I am always his adopted son and can return and become heir to the inheritance once again. I did not lose my status as a son by walking away, but I did lose my inheritance. Simple, not very hard to understand and completely aligns with scripture.

[DannyM]

Does Jesus intercede for the elect? Why?

Why not, John? Why bother praying for forgiveness when we are already forgiven?

There is no scripture you can show me Danny that says one cannot walk away or one cannot prove they were never saved to begin with.

That’s question-begging, John. Jesus says He will lose none of His own. So the burden is on you to show Jesus was wrong, brother; there is no burden on me to defend the fact that Jesus is not contradicted in the Bible. How would that work?

[Byblos]

Does Jesus intercede for the elect? Why?

Why not, John? Why bother praying for forgiveness when we are already forgiven?

I don't know, you tell me (well, I suspect I know what you're going to say but I had to ask ...)

There is no scripture you can show me Danny that says one cannot walk away or one cannot prove they were never saved to begin with.

That’s question-begging, John. Jesus says He will lose none of His own. So the burden is on you to show Jesus was wrong, brother; there is no burden on me to defend the fact that Jesus is not contradicted in the Bible. How would that work?

I, of course, contend that Jesus was not wrong and scripture is not contradicted. The fact that I can walk away from the inheritance doesn't mean he lost me, it means he never had me to begin with.

[RickD]

I, of course, contend that Jesus was not wrong and scripture is not contradicted. The fact that I can walk away from the inheritance doesn't mean he lost me, it means he never had me to begin with.

Do you realize what you just said, Byblos?

[DannyM]

I don't know, you tell me (well, I suspect I know what you're going to say but I had to ask ...)

Because He loves us? Again, why not?

I, of course, contend that Jesus was not wrong and scripture is not contradicted. The fact that I can walk away from the inheritance doesn't mean he lost me, it means he never had me to begin with.

On this view, John, there can be no certainty, everything is up in the air, and the elect can never know they are elected. You have faith in Christ, God gave you that faith and you have received it. If you have real faith, then you cannot deny or 'leave hanging' the fact that you are saved.

[Byblos]

I don't know, you tell me (well, I suspect I know what you're going to say but I had to ask ...)

Because He loves us? Again, why not?

Why not, I'm not even sure anymore what my line of thought was with this.

I, of course, contend that Jesus was not wrong and scripture is not contradicted. The fact that I can walk away from the inheritance doesn't mean he lost me, it means he never had me to begin with.

On this view, John, there can be no certainty, everything is up in the air, and the elect can never know they are elected. You have faith in Christ, God gave you that faith and you have received it. If you have real faith, then you cannot deny or 'leave hanging' the fact that you are saved.

Even the 'elect' can at some point prove they were never 'elect', rendering absolute assurance meaningless. That is why I've always contended that we can have at best a moral assurance but not an absolute one.

[Byblos]

I, of course, contend that Jesus was not wrong and scripture is not contradicted. The fact that I can walk away from the inheritance doesn't mean he lost me, it means he never had me to begin with.

Do you realize what you just said, Byblos?

I think what I've been saying all along, why?

[RickD]

I, of course, contend that Jesus was not wrong and scripture is not contradicted. The fact that I can walk away from the inheritance doesn't mean he lost me, it means he never had me to begin with.

Do you realize what you just said, Byblos?

I think what I've been saying all along, why?

No, you just said what we've been saying all along. That absolute assurance that God gives, is only for the true child of God. The true child, who has been sealed by the HS. If someone walks away, it means, just like you said, that God never sealed him, to begin with.