Atheists are hard to convert

[Byblos]

I, of course, contend that Jesus was not wrong and scripture is not contradicted. The fact that I can walk away from the inheritance doesn't mean he lost me, it means he never had me to begin with.

Do you realize what you just said, Byblos?

I think what I've been saying all along, why?

No, you just said what we've been saying all along. That absolute assurance that God gives, is only for the true child of God. The true child, who has been sealed by the HS. If someone walks away, it means, just like you said, that God never sealed him, to begin with.

Rick, my brother, I don't know what you're talking about. This has been my argument from the begging, which is to say that if one can prove they were never his, then absolute assurance is meaningless Rick, non-existent. At the heart of OSAS is absolute, unconditional assurance. But if any one of us can at some point in the future prove they were never his, then that absolute assurance they thought they once had goes out the window. You can tell me true believers have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit all day long but the fact is there are people who thought they were indwelled by the HS and it turned out they were wrong. Unless you can predict the future Rick, you simply cannot say with absolute certainty that you will not prove to yourself you were deluded into thinking you had the indwelling of the HS. Others have before and they will again. There is no such thing as absolute assurance, only a moral one. That's what I've been saying all along.

[RickD]

au contraire mon frere.

which is to say that if one can prove they were never his, then absolute assurance is meaningless Rick, non-existent.

Absolute assurance only applies to the true child of God, Byblos. And, the true child will be preserved, by the Holy Spirit of God, until our redemption.

At the heart of OSAS is absolute, unconditional assurance.

Wrong. At the heart of OSAS is absolute, unconditional assurance, only for the true believer. Not for apostates.

But if any one of us can at some point in the future prove they were never his, then that absolute assurance they thought they once had goes out the window.

The absolute assurance is still there, Byblos. It's from God. Once someone has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, he is forever sealed. One who doesn't have the indwelling HS, was never promised assurance.

Unless you can predict the future Rick, you simply cannot say with absolute certainty that you will not prove to yourself you were deluded into thinking you had the indwelling of the HS.

Byblos, I can absolutely say to you that I have the indwelling HS of God inside me. And God will never let me walk away from His salvation. He has sealed me for redemption.

Others have before and they will again. There is no such thing as absolute assurance, only a moral one.

Byblos, that is such a sad statement. God has given you all you need in Christ. Trust in Him alone, and you will have absolute assurance, my friend. God guarantees it. Trust Him, not yourself.

[Byblos]

Lol, Rick, we're back at the Secured Salvation thread. How does this keep happening?

[RickD]

Lol, Rick, we're back at the Secured Salvation thread. How does this keep happening?

It's predestined.

[Byblos]

Lol, Rick, we're back at the Secured Salvation thread. How does this keep happening?

It's predestined.

More like a bad episode of the Twilight Zone.

[RickD]

Lol, Rick, we're back at the Secured Salvation thread. How does this keep happening?

It's predestined.

More like a bad episode of the Twilight Zone.

Byblos, there were no bad episodes of the Twilight Zone.

All these threads are interconnected with secured salvation. Religions of works, don't give any basis for absolute assurance. And Since this thread has differing views, some of which come from religions of works, it is inevitable that it would return to "assurance".

[Byblos]

Lol, Rick, we're back at the Secured Salvation thread. How does this keep happening?

It's predestined.

More like a bad episode of the Twilight Zone.

Byblos, there were no bad episodes of the Twilight Zone.

This one is ...

All these threads are interconnected with secured salvation. Religions of works, don't give any basis for absolute assurance. And Since this thread has differing views, some of which come from religions of works, it is inevitable that it would return to "assurance".

Please define for me what constitutes "works", from scripture of course.

[DannyM]

The fact that I can walk away from the inheritance doesn't mean he lost me, it means he never had me to begin with.

Then there was no inheritance to begin with which you could walk away from. Everyone born of God overcomes the world:

1 John 5:4,5
4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

Even the 'elect' can at some point prove they were never 'elect', rendering absolute assurance meaningless. That is why I've always contended that we can have at best a moral assurance but not an absolute one.

Again, brother, the elect do not 'become' de-elected, just like absolute assurance cannot ‘become’ non-absolute. You are now led by the Spirit, no longer a slave to fear, and the Spirit testifies with your spirit, John:

Romans 8:14,15,16,17
14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children

17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs— heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

I suspect you know all this really, though, brother.

The elect know by their desire for salvation in Christ that they are elect.

[DannyM]

Anyone see Groundhog Day?

[RickD]

Anyone see Groundhog Day?

Yes, Danny. And Bill Murray is Catholic, too. Coincidence?

[DannyM]

My problem lies with the assumption that we can just accept Christ and then do nothing about it.

Whoever made such an assumption, Neo?

This alone is the major issue I have with predestination

Your issue is not with predestination, brother.

and many people believe they can act however they want once they've "accepted Christ". Trust is one thing. Presumption is another Agreed.

Again, who believes this?

This is the inherent problem with predestination, the basic thing is, once you are saved, you are saved. Nothing can avert it, nothing.

Predestination is the sovereign God’s decision made in eternity with regards to the events of world history and the final destiny of individual sinners. It naturally follows from this that your salvation can not be lost. Why would your sin, which was completely overlooked when He gave you life, suddenly become a stumbling block to God?

If I say, sin, then you say no sin is big enough to override grace, if I say, disobedience, then you say well "TRUE Believers" won't sin that much.

1 John 3:9
No-one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

Once we are born again, it goes against our innermost principles to commit sin. Sin now repulses us. Practically, of course, no one in this world lives a sinless life, yet we now have a standard we strive to reach.

It is self contradictory. In all of it, while you are abiding by grace, you are also saying that no matter what you do, you are sealed. This is just too much of presumption.

It’s not a presumption, but a biblical fact.

I have nothing against the idea that God can and does forgive when we sin, I however still believe that we can outright walk away from God, lose our inheritance and this become lost, sin too much, do not repent and become sinners AGAIN, BY CHOICE after coming to Christ.

Brother Neo, you don’t “become” a sinner “again”. You always were a sinner, and you’ll be a sinner until the day of redemption.

Ephesians 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession— to the praise of his glory.

The problem with predestination is, it can't have both grace and good Christian conduct together as a rule because people violate it all the time. So it says you are safe because it has to say it under any circumstance and by definition people can and do violate it all the time.

Neo, you are talking as though predestination itself were up for debate. There is no “problem” for predestination, bro. How does one “violate” predestination? How does one violate God's grace?

[DannyM]

Anyone see Groundhog Day?

Yes, Danny. And Bill Murray is Catholic, too. Coincidence?

Shame ... I used to love Bill Murray

[RickD]

Please define for me what constitutes "works", from scripture of course.

Saving baptism, is when we receive the indwelling of the HS, when we believe on Christ. It is strictly by God. Other baptisms, are done by the hands of men, and are "works" done, by man.
Byblos, I'll define works for you, from Catholicism. Because that's your ultimate authority.
Fromhttp://catholicism.about.com/od/beliefs ... aptism.htm

The Necessity of Baptism:

Christ Himself ordered His disciples to preach the Gospel to all nations and to baptize those who accept the message of the Gospel. In His encounter with Nicodemus (John 3:1-21), Christ made it clear that baptism was necessary for salvation: "Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." For Catholics, the sacrament is not a mere formality; it is the very mark of a Christian, because it brings us into new life in Christ.

Since baptism removes both the guilt and the punishment due to Original Sin, delaying baptism until a child can understand the sacrament may put the child's salvation in danger, should he die unbaptized.

From:http://catholicism.about.com/od/beliefs ... iation.htm

The Sacrament of Baptism, the first of the sacraments of initiation, is our entrance into the Church. Through Baptism, we are cleansed of Original Sin and receive sanctifying grace, the life of God within our souls.

The Sacrament of Holy Communion:

The final sacrament of initiation is the Sacrament of Holy Communion, and it is the only one of the three that we can (and should) receive repeatedly—even daily, if possible. In Holy Communion, we consume the Body and Blood of Christ, which unites us more closely to Him and helps us to grow in grace by living a more Christian life.

[neo-x]

To remain sinning after being bought by Christ and thinking that this is somehow okay to sin and not fight it, cuz we sin all the time, is not ok.

This is always the error people arguing your side make. That being that we are saying it is "Ok to sin." Oddly, Paul was forced to deal with this same objection.

J, the error is not in my argument, the error is that your position says, while it is not okay to sin, sinning also has no consequence, so even if someone does sin there is nothing to stop it, no matter what nature of sin it is. You say the Lord Disciplines us, what discipline are we talking about? I often see this as follows, I have enlarged the text to which I point.

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

I can see how this can be easily be identified as apostasy but the word "remain" always makes me think Jesus is talking about a continuous relationship of faith and obedience and fruit. Consider the first enlarged text.

People can come back, only God knows our hearts and knows our intentions.

I just don't see how you can say that. If someone can lose their salvation, then the bible says it is IMPOSSIBLE to come back. (Heb 6:6)

I didn't mean apostasy.

And I think even true believers can be led astray.

As do I, and the scriptures agree that even the 'elect' can and will be decieved. However, being deceived and losing salvation are something you are equivocating.

J, if we are deceived then don't you think we are on the wrong path already? salvation is salvation from sin, our eternal inheritance is not = salvation, rather salvation is the work by which we are able to inherent our part in God. So salvation is not = eternal inheritance. If you have salvation, you are free from the yoke of sin and its judgement. When and often, we sin, we can ask for forgiveness and therefore continue in grace. If you walk in the spirit and not of the flesh, then we will receive your inheritance. We have been freed from sin, but that does not mean that we can sin without accountability to God, unless we ask forgiveness.

I know the pit from which I was rescued. I have seen the failings of Peter, and seen my own in my walk. I am not going to boast about something saying "I know I would." Unlike many, I work in missional endevours and I see first hand the challenges and areas where one must walk in complete faith.

J, I have never undermined your personal efforts in Christ. We all fail, we all must keep faith, nothing I disagree with, here. God bless you.

This line of thought makes obedience to God, a joke. I mean you are obedient, good. You are disobedient, no big deal, you are still saved. This is an excuse J, not a solid life in the Spirit
It makes obedience and act of love, and not a performance based relgious substitute. It is the difference in being sourced by God, and sourced by will power.

It is not will power but my asking forgiveness when I sin and walking in the spirit, not of the flesh, that's all.

[neo-x]

RickD on Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:43 pm

Neo-x wrote:
I however still believe that we can outright walk away from God, lose our inheritance and this become lost, sin too much, do not repent and become sinners AGAIN, BY CHOICE after coming to Christ.

Neo, when we accept Christ, and are adopted as sons, into God's family, God becomes our Father. No matter what we do, He will always be our Father. Our relationship with Him may suffer, but He can never disown us. Just like our own child can sin, and walk away from us, but he will always be our child. No matter how many times our children may say "You are not my Father", that doesn't make it true. My son will always be my child, even if he doesn't acknowledge me. How much more does that mean when God says He won't disown us?

Yes Rick, I would agree, but as Byblos pointed out this doesn't make him come back and claim his inheritance, only his act to come back does. Being a son we can still not come back, if we choose to.