Atheists are hard to convert

[neo-x]

DannyM on Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:32 am

neo-x wrote:
My problem lies with the assumption that we can just accept Christ and then do nothing about it.


Whoever made such an assumption, Neo?

Brother Danny, this is the underlying assumption. This is what you are saying, you have to do nothing to get saved, except beleive in Jesus Christ. Once you are done, you are saved, sealed and forever assured. You have to do nothing else, if you sin, you don;t even have to ask forgiveness, since all future sins price is already paid too. Isn't this what you have been saying or did I get something wrong?

neo-x wrote:
This alone is the major issue I have with predestination

Your issue is not with predestination, brother.

Predestination with respect to OSAS.

neo-x wrote:
and many people believe they can act however they want once they've "accepted Christ". Trust is one thing. Presumption is another Agreed.

Again, who believes this?

A lot of people Brother Danny, a lot. Of course they are misguided but my point is that the reason they don't care is because they are OSAS.

Why would your sin, which was completely overlooked when He gave you life, suddenly become a stumbling block to God?

Agreed brother, my only point of contention is, this overlooking is not a merit to sin, since it will be overlooked as well.

1 John 3:9
No-one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

Once we are born again, it goes against our innermost principles to commit sin. Sin now repulses us. Practically, of course, no one in this world lives a sinless life, yet we now have a standard we strive to reach.

Agreed, not go on sinning, I always tend to read this with "IF we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness (1 Jn. 1:9)." This means an ongoing process rather then a one time. because he rightly points out that we do sin, and if we say we have no sin in us, then we are lying. 'If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

Yet this flies direct in the face of OSAS. The question is, should we not, confess our sin and ask forgiveness, and go on sinning. Then is there something to be afraid of? does this not challenge OSAS?

neo-x wrote:
I have nothing against the idea that God can and does forgive when we sin, I however still believe that we can outright walk away from God, lose our inheritance and this become lost, sin too much, do not repent and become sinners AGAIN, BY CHOICE after coming to Christ.

Brother Neo, you don’t “become” a sinner “again”. You always were a sinner, and you’ll be a sinner until the day of redemption.

I believe that a walk in the spirit means a walk contrary to walk of the flesh. That is my point. Are we sinners after Christ blood washed us? do we continue sin, cuz we will sin, anyway and we will be saved, nonetheless?

What you are saying here Bro, is directly opposite of the reference you quoted "1 John 3:9,
No-one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."

If I am a sinner in God's eyes, I receive Christ and is saved, then am I still considered a sinner in front of God? You say, no, you are sealed, saved, child of God, yet you say, that I will remain a sinner always. Why would a sealed, saved, child of God, a true believer could also be considered a sinner all through life, in front of God? Unless he goes on sinning, but then that means he is not saved, was never saved.

So first we are saying that we can not go on sinning, and then we are saying that we will sin occasionally, and then we are saying that if we keep on sinning then we were never saved to begin with. I don't know what I am arguing for at this point.

On a serious note Brother Danny, I can see that we can sin, but it doesn't mean it is ok to sin. But the OSAS makes this trivial, since you are saved. As for my point, to ask for forgiveness, really must not be a "feeling sorry" but a realization that God has ordained us to be holy and that we should remain holy. 1 cor 6:19 "Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?..."

I can never imagine to go to God and say, I did these works I am entitled to this. Far from it. But unless I ask for forgiveness of things that I have done wrong, I am accountable to God for them. Also consider the below,

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins (Mt. 6:14,15).

It would be wrong for God to accept people who persist in sin and call themselves filled with the Spirit, a good tree bears good fruit, a bad tree does respectively. I think that scriptures make it clear. I think the work Christ did was meant for us to sin less and less with passing time. So that we can learn to walk more in the spirit and less in the flesh, with each passing day.

Some verses from 1 John 2
(1 John 2:3-6 NIV) [3]"We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. [4] The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [5] But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: [6] Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did."

9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness.

15 "Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father[d] is not in them. 16 For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. 17 The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever."

These are some of the conditional verses brother Danny, they have conditions which are to be met, not by perfect Christians but by people are meant to transform in the image of Christ with passing time. That is a big goal, but we are told to pursue it with whatever we have. We can always say, I am saved, but do we truly act like we are saved or are we comfortable with sin?

God bless you

[Canuckster1127]

Thus conversation is going as similar conversations have gone for ages. There are texts that when isolated and used with others can build a case for either a hyper-grace position or a hyper-works position and number of other positions along the spectrum.

I don't know that I can resolve this to everyone's satisfaction but I think when we step back a lot of thus has to do with how we view the character of God. I'll expand mire later but I just wanted to throw that out to prompt some thought.

[Byblos]

Please define for me what constitutes "works", from scripture of course.

Saving baptism, is when we receive the indwelling of the HS, when we believe on Christ. It is strictly by God. Other baptisms, are done by the hands of men, and are "works" done, by man.
Byblos, I'll define works for you, from Catholicism. Because that's your ultimate authority.
Fromhttp://catholicism.about.com/od/beliefs ... aptism.htm

The Necessity of Baptism:

Christ Himself ordered His disciples to preach the Gospel to all nations and to baptize those who accept the message of the Gospel. In His encounter with Nicodemus (John 3:1-21), Christ made it clear that baptism was necessary for salvation: "Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." For Catholics, the sacrament is not a mere formality; it is the very mark of a Christian, because it brings us into new life in Christ.

Since baptism removes both the guilt and the punishment due to Original Sin, delaying baptism until a child can understand the sacrament may put the child's salvation in danger, should he die unbaptized.

From:http://catholicism.about.com/od/beliefs ... iation.htm

The Sacrament of Baptism, the first of the sacraments of initiation, is our entrance into the Church. Through Baptism, we are cleansed of Original Sin and receive sanctifying grace, the life of God within our souls.

The Sacrament of Holy Communion:

The final sacrament of initiation is the Sacrament of Holy Communion, and it is the only one of the three that we can (and should) receive repeatedly—even daily, if possible. In Holy Communion, we consume the Body and Blood of Christ, which unites us more closely to Him and helps us to grow in grace by living a more Christian life.

Rick, what you've shown me is nothing but your opinion that these are "works". I am looking for scripture that shows that the above are "works". Where in scripture does it say that baptism or repentance or the Lord's Supper are "works" that might "earn" someone salvation and therefore ought not be practiced for that purpose. Mind you I am not saying they are, but it appears that you are since you referenced them as "works".

[RickD]

Rick, what you've shown me is nothing but your opinion that these are "works". I am looking for scripture that shows that the above are "works".

Byblos, I'm going to post a link, that explains baptism covenantally. And how baptism, is a covenant sign, just like circumcision is a covenant sign. This then goes into how circumcision was a work done by men, and didn't save. Just like baptism is a work done by men, that doesn't save.

Where in scripture does it say that baptism or repentance or the Lord's Supper are "works" that might "earn" someone salvation and therefore ought not be practiced for that purpose.

The link also explains this.

God please forgive me. I'm linking a Calvinist site , to attempt to explain away a faith + X=salvation theology. I hope the end justifies the means, in this case.
http://carm.org/is-baptism-necessary-salvation

[Byblos]

Rick, what you've shown me is nothing but your opinion that these are "works". I am looking for scripture that shows that the above are "works".

Byblos, I'm going to post a link, that explains baptism covenantally. And how baptism, is a covenant sign, just like circumcision is a covenant sign. This then goes into how circumcision was a work done by men, and didn't save. Just like baptism is a work done by men, that doesn't save.

Oh I agree totally that baptism is a covenant sign. I also agree that circumcision is a sign of the old and ineffective covenant, the old covenant that foreshadowed the new and everlasting covenant that saves. Circumcision as part of the old covenant did not save, but baptism is part of the new covenant so does the new covenant save or not?

But all that aside, you STILL are not answering my question. Where in scripture does it say baptism IS a "work". Please show me where scripture emphatically states the list of what constitutes "works".

Where in scripture does it say that baptism or repentance or the Lord's Supper are "works" that might "earn" someone salvation and therefore ought not be practiced for that purpose.

The link also explains this.

God please forgive me. I'm linking a Calvinist site , to attempt to explain away a faith + X=salvation theology. I hope the end justifies the means, in this case.
http://carm.org/is-baptism-necessary-salvation

I will certainly read this when I have the time. For now, I'm still waiting for that list of "works" from scripture.

[StMonicaGuideMe]

O.O oh my, I have a lot to catch up on O.O

[Byblos]

God please forgive me. I'm linking a Calvinist site , to attempt to explain away a faith + X=salvation theology. I hope the end justifies the means, in this case.
http://carm.org/is-baptism-necessary-salvation

I will certainly read this when I have the time. For now, I'm still waiting for that list of "works" from scripture.

You know I did go back and read the link and surprisingly there isn't really much I disagree with other than the conclusion but, for the sake of the discussion, let's just say that I agree, baptism is an outward sign of the inner faith and is not necessary. In other words, practicing baptism when it is a reflection of the inward faith does NOT constitute a work (although how that could be possible and still call it a covenant is beyond me but again, I digress).

Ultimately though, this works not in your favor Rick because it is shown that baptism (albeit when practiced with the right intentions, and I contend that is precisely how it is practiced in Catholicism) is NOT a work. So, I ask again, please show me from scripture what constitutes a "work".

[RickD]

Oh I agree totally that baptism is a covenant sign. I also agree that circumcision is a sign of the old and ineffective covenant, the old covenant that foreshadowed the new and everlasting covenant that saves. Circumcision as part of the old covenant did not save, but baptism is part of the new covenant so does the new covenant save or not?

What saved in the old covenant? Faith. Romans 4:1-3: 1 What then shall we say that Abraham, [a]our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not [c]before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”

What saves in the new covenant? Faith.
Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9Not by works, lest any man should boast."
Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

But all that aside, you STILL are not answering my question. Where in scripture does it say baptism IS a "work". Please show me where scripture emphatically states the list of what constitutes "works".

Anything added to being justified by faith, that is done by the hands of men, is a work. Circumcision is a work done by the hands of men. Baptism is a work, done by the hands of men.

Where in scripture does it say that baptism or repentance or the Lord's Supper are "works" that might "earn" someone salvation and therefore ought not be practiced for that purpose.

Scripture doesn't say they are works that might earn salvation, because they don't earn salvation. Salvation comes by faith.
Ephesians 2:8-9:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [a]that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

[RickD]

You know I did go back and read the link and surprisingly there isn't really much I disagree with other than the conclusion but, for the sake of the discussion, let's just say that I agree, baptism is an outward sign of the inner faith and is not necessary. In other words, practicing baptism when it is a reflection of the inward faith does NOT constitute a work (although how that could be possible and still call it a covenant is beyond me but again, I digress).

It does constitute a work, if it is necessary for salvation. If it(water baptism) is performed as a reflection of the inward faith, and is not required for salvation, then it is not something added to faith, in order to gain or keep salvation. But, it is clear, from Catholic doctrine, that baptism is necessary for salvation. Do you see the difference? If a believer, who is saved by believing on Christ, then gets baptized, as a sign of his belief, then its not a 'work' to gain or keep salvation. But if baptism is performed, as the Catholic church, and other churches say, then it becomes something added to faith, that is needed for salvation. Can't you see the glaring difference?

Ultimately though, this works not in your favor Rick because it is shown that baptism (albeit when practiced with the right intentions, and I contend that is precisely how it is practiced in Catholicism) is NOT a work.

Do you really need me to quote Catholic sources, that show, according to them, that baptism is necessary for salvation? Would that show you what I'm saying?

[RickD]

from :http://catholicism.about.com/od/beliefs ... aptism.htm

The Necessity of Baptism:

Christ Himself ordered His disciples to preach the Gospel to all nations and to baptize those who accept the message of the Gospel. In His encounter with Nicodemus (John 3:1-21), Christ made it clear that baptism was necessary for salvation: "Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." For Catholics, the sacrament is not a mere formality; it is the very mark of a Christian, because it brings us into new life in Christ.

Shall I continue?

[RickD]

http://catholicism.org/necessity-of-baptism.html

Thus, as there are no substitutes for the water, then the necessity for the Sacrament of Baptism for Salvation is no longer of a relative or hypothetical nature, but of an absolute nature. And so, we see that Our Lord Jesus Christ and the Council of Trent both teach explicitly that the Sacrament of Baptism is absolutely necessary for Salvation. And when it is absolute it is for “everyone without exception.”

http://catholicism.org/rptal-part3.html

Is There Any Case When Baptism of the Holy Spirit Without Actual Reception of Baptism of Water Can Be Sufficient for Salvation?

Now that we have considered the defined truths which must be believed, namely, the absolute necessity of the Catholic Faith, the absolute necessity of membership in the Catholic Church, the absolute necessity of submission to the Roman Pontiff, the absolute necessity of baptism of water, for salvation, there remains but one point to examine; that is, whether there is any case where a man can be saved without actually receiving the water of baptism on his head.

At this point, we have to depart from infallibly defined dogma and must rely on the teachings of the Fathers and Doctors, because it has never so far been defined that any human being can be saved who was not actually baptized, except for those who lived before the coming of Our Lord, and except for the martyrs.

What is the teaching of the Fathers and the Doctors? Some Fathers deny that there is any case in which a man could be saved without the actual reception of the water of baptism (with the exception of the martyrs alone). But most of them agree in saying that there is one case, and only one case, when a man could be saved without having been actually baptized with water. It is the case of a catechumen who confesses the Catholic Faith, who is sorry for his past sins, who is burning with desire to be baptized and to join the Catholic Church, under the authority of the Roman Pontiff, but who, having been kept without baptism by the Church until he has been fully instructed, is overtaken by death suddenly and is incapable of receiving baptism. Such a catechumen, it is believed, can be saved, if he makes an act of perfect charity. 85

In answer to our third question, therefore, we shall say that, according to the majority of the Fathers and Doctors, baptism of the Holy Spirit, without the actual reception of Baptism of water, can be sufficient for salvation if the following five conditions are fulfilled:

First, that person must have the Catholic Faith. (We have already proved that no one can be saved without the Catholic Faith, and that not even the Sacrament of Baptism can be profitable for salvation if the subject who receives it does not confess the Catholic Faith.)

Second, he must have an explicit will or desire to receive the Sacrament of Baptism. For example, St. Bernard says that he must have an “entire yearning for the sacrament of Jesus.” 86

Third, he must have perfect charity. For St. Robert Bellarmine says that only “perfect conversion can be called baptism of the Spirit, and this includes true contrition and charity. ” 87 St. Augustine says that he must have “faith and conversion of the heart. ” 88 St. Thomas says that, as in the case of the Sacrament of Penance, so also in the Sacrament of Baptism, if sanctifying grace is to be received previous to the Sacrament, a perfect act of charity is necessary, for “if an adult is not perfectly disposed before baptism to obtain remission of his sins, he obtains this remission by the power of baptism, in the very act of being baptized. ” 89 St. Bernard says that “right faith, God-fearing hope, and sincere charity” must be present. 90

Fourth, he must have an explicit will to join the Catholic Church , — for, as we have shown, not even actual Baptism is profitable for salvation if it is received outside the Catholic Church (except for babies) and without an explicit will to join the Church. Much less, therefore, does baptism in voto profit for salvation if it does not include an explicit will to join the Catholic Church.

Fifth, he must be dying and, although yearning for the Baptism of Water, is unable to receive it because of an absolute impossibility, not because of a contempt for it. Thus, St. Augustine says that baptism of the Spirit, or perfect conversion to God, “may indeed be found when Baptism has not yet been received, but never when it has been despised. For it should never in any way be called a conversion of the heart to God when the sacrament of God has been despised. ” 91 In the same way St. Bernard says that, since the time of the promulgation of the Gospel, “whoever refuses now to be baptized, after the remedy of baptism has been made accessible to all everywhere, adds of his own accord a sin of pride to the general original stain, carrying within himself a double cause of the most just damnation, if he happens to leave the body in the same state.” 92 Also, St. Thomas says, “It is necessary, in order that a man might enter into the kingdom of God, that he approach the baptism of water actually (in re), as it is in all those who are baptized; or in voto, as it is in the martyrs and the catechumens who were hindered by death before they could fulfill their intent (votum); or in figure, as in the ancient Fathers,” — that is, in those before Christ. 93

Now that we have shown in what sense a person who has the desire for baptism can be saved, let us enumerate again Father Donnelly’s three doctrines which we listed at the beginning of Part III, namely, (1) that a person can be said to have desire for Baptism while being totally ignorant of the Catholic Faith and ignorant of the Baptism of water; (2) that a person can be said to have a desire for Baptism while knowing the Catholic Church and the Catholic Faith and refusing both; (3) that a person can be said to have a desire for Baptism while knowing the Baptism of water and refusing it. From the evidence we have presented, it must be clear that these doctrines are erroneous and cannot be held.

Can't you see this, Byblos?

[Byblos]

Oh I agree totally that baptism is a covenant sign. I also agree that circumcision is a sign of the old and ineffective covenant, the old covenant that foreshadowed the new and everlasting covenant that saves. Circumcision as part of the old covenant did not save, but baptism is part of the new covenant so does the new covenant save or not?

What saved in the old covenant? Faith. Romans 4:1-3: 1 What then shall we say that Abraham, [a]our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not [c]before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”

What saves in the new covenant? Faith.
Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9Not by works, lest any man should boast."
Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

But all that aside, you STILL are not answering my question. Where in scripture does it say baptism IS a "work". Please show me where scripture emphatically states the list of what constitutes "works".

Anything added to being justified by faith, that is done by the hands of men, is a work. Circumcision is a work done by the hands of men. Baptism is a work, done by the hands of men.

Where in scripture does it say that baptism or repentance or the Lord's Supper are "works" that might "earn" someone salvation and therefore ought not be practiced for that purpose.

Scripture doesn't say they are works that might earn salvation, because they don't earn salvation. Salvation comes by faith.
Ephesians 2:8-9:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [a]that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Ah so now we're getting somewhere. Of course, I totally agree that we are justified by faith. Even my faith is a gift from God so I can't even boast about having that to begin with (predestination anyone? ok, ok, let's leave this one aside for now, please). But more to the point, what are those works that are referenced by scripture? That's right, they are works of the law. Is baptism a work of the law? Evidently not because it is an outward sign of this inner faith I have from God. Is repentance a work? Of course not, it is the means God left us to confess our sins and have them forgiven. Is receiving the Lord's Supper a work? Of course not since it is an outward sign commemorating Christ's death and resurrection. In other words, faith in Christ leads one to keep the covenant between us. No one can boast about any of it because its source is not us, it is Christ. Do you see what I'm getting at Rick? It's easy to just throw around statements like 'oh we're justified by faith and anything added to that is a work'. First, there is a fundamental difference in how salvation is viewed and to say that if one does not believe in absolute assurance then they must be adding something to that faith to get justified is simply wrong and categorically rejected. What we 'do' to stay the course is not of US, it is of HIM. P.S. What you've shown from scripture is that works of the law do nothing to save and with that I am in total agreement. What I vehemently disagree with is for baptism or repentance or the Lord's Supper to be classified as works, that is basically where my beef is.

[RickD]

What I vehemently disagree with is for baptism or repentance or the Lord's Supper to be classified as works, that is basically where my beef is.

Where's the beef!!
I'm saying, when water baptism is deemed necessary for salvation, by the Catholic Church, then it is no longer a symbol of the saving baptism that God gives us, when we believe on Christ. Water baptism, has now been elevated to the meaning that the real baptism it symbolizes, holds. It is now, no longer a symbol, or outward showing of the true saving baptism. It is now equal to true, saving baptism of the Holy Spirit.

[RickD]

That's right, they are works of the law. Is baptism a work of the law? Evidently not because it is an outward sign of this inner faith I have from God. Is repentance a work? Of course not, it is the means God left us to confess our sins and have them forgiven. Is receiving the Lord's Supper a work? Of course not since it is an outward sign commemorating Christ's death and resurrection. In other words, faith in Christ leads one to keep the covenant between us. No one can boast about any of it because its source is not us, it is Christ. Do you see what I'm getting at Rick?

If all these were done properly, as signs of what they symbolize, then there's no problem, and they're not works, done to gain or keep salvation. When these things are done, as necessary for salvation, as your Church teaches, then they become "works". Can't you see the difference?

Maybe you hold these symbols to mean the same thing that I believe they mean. I'm sure you do, because you've said it. But, that is in stark contrast to what your church teaches. How can you not see, from their own words, that the Catholic Church teaches that water baptism is needed for salvation? What you said above, leads me to believe, that you believe in what the bible says about baptism. How can you reconcile that with what the Catholic church teaches?

[Byblos]

What I vehemently disagree with is for baptism or repentance or the Lord's Supper to be classified as works, that is basically where my beef is.

Where's the beef!!
I'm saying, when water baptism is deemed necessary for salvation, by the Catholic Church, then it is no longer a symbol of the saving baptism that God gives us, when we believe on Christ. Water baptism, has now been elevated to the meaning that the real baptism it symbolizes, holds. It is now, no longer a symbol, or outward showing of the true saving baptism. It is now equal to true, saving baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I understand what you're saying Rick and we don't need to branch into a discussion on the necessity of baptism (and why it's not a work because we believe we are commanded to do it). For the sake of our discussion here, I am asking you to put aside what the RCC has to say about the necessity of baptism and to consider that it really is an outward sign of an inner faith. If you do that, then baptism is not a work. My question to you is, is there anything else that you might deem to be a "work" if we are commanded to do it as part of our covenant with God or if it is an outward sign of the inner faith?