Danny and Rick disagreeing. Split from Ken Ham-and YEC

[RickD]

I agree, B.W. Ham and his little group are one-trick ponies, no more sophisticated than single-issue pressure groups.

IBack when I was an atheist, I used a tactic to stop people from witnessing to me by bring up YEC. Doing so would cause those Christians witnessing to me to stop and do everything in their power to convince me of YEC and thus I won. They were not preaching Christ to me anymore. See what I am saying? If there was an OEC amongst the group witnessing to me, I could rest assured I could divid the group into two factions and they’ll be in heated debate with each other and not me. I thought this was grand at the time as it let me avoid hearing the Romans Road preached to me or Christ.

I brought this up for two reasons. If you are witnessing to people – don’t fall into that trap and defend YEC or OEC – side step it and preach Christ to them and nothing else. Realize how people will use the same tactic on you and thwart it.

Great point, B.W. I saw a prime example of this recently. Rick found himself drawn into an ‘in-house’ squabble by two atheists who were debating two presuppositional apologists. It almost took the entire focus away from the incoherent atheists.

Excellent point.

Danny, while I understand what you're trying to say here, My "in house squabble" had no effect on anyone's witness to any unbelievers. And, by the way, my focus was never on "incoherent atheists". When you asked for opinions about the podcast, I saw something completely different, than two incoherent atheists. I saw two people, that Christ died for, that have been so disillusioned by what they know as "Christianity", that they have built up a defensive wall to protect themselves from anything they perceive as Christian. Maybe, if someone shows them the real love of Christ, then their defenses will come down. Certainly, bashing them over the head with spiritual arguments that they can't possibly comprehend in themselves, does more harm than good, IMO.

[DannyM]

Danny, while I understand what you're trying to say here, My "in house squabble" had no effect on anyone's witness to any unbelievers. And, by the way, my focus was never on "incoherent atheists". When you asked for opinions about the podcast, I saw something completely different, than two incoherent atheists. I saw two people, that Christ died for, that have been so disillusioned by what they know as "Christianity", that they have built up a defensive wall to protect themselves from anything they perceive as Christian. Maybe, if someone shows them the real love of Christ, then their defenses will come down. Certainly, bashing them over the head with spiritual arguments that they can't possibly comprehend in themselves, does more harm than good, IMO.

Rick, you belittled fellow Christians on an atheist website. What more do you want me to say? As for your friends, look at the bile they spew, look how they couldn't give a brass farthing about actually defending their inconsistencies:

http://debunkingatheists.blogspot.com/2 ... -deny.html

See comments section. See Sye showing love, see your atheist friends spewing profanities. You just don't like Sye's way of showing his love, Rick. Not Sye's nor my problem. But you sure as hell can't accuse him of not acting out of love when he debates these fools. Same as with me, contrary to what you'd wish to believe. No I don't 'love' all atheists. And neither do you. Please. But when I debate them my love for Christ wants to persuade them. Maybe they are elect.

But let’s not derail B.W.’s thread, so if you want to continue we should do it in another thread or offline. How about a thread demonstrating how the presuppositional apologetic leads to a lack of love. You know, like a logical progression, or something?

[RickD]

Rick, you belittled fellow Christians on an atheist website. What more do you want me to say?

I belittled fellow Christians, by saying that Jim and Alex won a debate against YECs? I didn't belittle any Christian, Danny. Belittling YEC beliefs, that I disagree with, isn't the same as belittling a person. Unless you are referring to something else, then show me what you mean.

As for your friends, look at the bile they spew, look how they couldn't give a brass farthing about actually defending their inconsistencies:

Now they're my friends, Danny? Quite a leap, to say that.

See comments section. See Sye showing love, see your atheist friends spewing profanities. You just don't like Sye's way of showing his love, Rick. Not Sye's nor my problem. But you sure as hell can't accuse him of not acting out of love when he debates these fools.

I never accused Sye of that, Danny. Never.

Same as with me, contrary to what you'd wish to believe. No I don't 'love' all atheists. And neither do you. Please.

Danny, what is this with your "I don't 'love' all atheists. And neither do you."? I said that God tells me to love my neighbor. That is anyone I have come in contact with. And, I also said that I am imperfect, and don't always show my love as I should. That's quite a bit different than your philosophy of :

Where am I told to love arrogant, autonomous man? I don’t love atheists, Rick. Do you really love these people? I love whom I love and I love Christ and those in Christ. God doesn’t even love all people, Rick, so how do you think I should fair against such competition?

But when I debate them my love for Christ wants to persuade them. Maybe they are elect.

Danny. We all should think, and pray that God will lead us by His love, when we debate, or speak with anybody. But, we should love them because Christ loved them first, and died for them, not because they might be "elect".

. How about a thread demonstrating how the presuppositional apologetic leads to a lack of love. You know, like a logical progression, or something?

Danny, if you want to start a thread, and try to prove that, then fine. I don't think that presuppositional apologetics leads to a lack of love. But, if you want to try to show me, then I'm all ears.

[DannyM]

I belittled fellow Christians, by saying that Jim and Alex won a debate against YECs? I didn't belittle any Christian, Danny. Belittling YEC beliefs, that I disagree with, isn't the same as belittling a person. Unless you are referring to something else, then show me what you mean.

.
Did you not comment on their site, siding with the atheists? It was a debate about presuppositional apologetics, and you picked up on the YEC thing and commented on their site siding with them on that, ignoring the topic of the debate and how intellectually dishonest they were being.

See comments section. See Sye showing love, see your atheist friends spewing profanities. You just don't like Sye's way of showing his love, Rick. Not Sye's nor my problem. But you sure as hell can't accuse him of not acting out of love when he debates these fools.

I never accused Sye of that, Danny. Never.

Then what’s your point with this:

Maybe, if someone shows them the real love of Christ, then their defenses will come down. Certainly, bashing them over the head with spiritual arguments that they can't possibly comprehend in themselves, does more harm than good, IMO.

If it’s not aimed at Sye's approach?

What’s showing someone “the real love of Chist”? And how does one attain this?

And did you look at the comments section?

Same as with me, contrary to what you'd wish to believe. No I don't 'love' all atheists. And neither do you. Please.

Danny, what is this with your "I don't 'love' all atheists. And neither do you."? I said that God tells me to love my neighbor. That is anyone I have come in contact with. And, I also said that I am imperfect, and don't always show my love as I should.

That's quite a bit different than your philosophy of :

Where am I told to love arrogant, autonomous man? I don’t love atheists, Rick. Do you really love these people? I love whom I love and I love Christ and those in Christ. God doesn’t even love all people, Rick, so how do you think I should fair against such competition?

Far from a “philosophy”, Rick, it was hyperbole. I love my neighbour as best I can. I’m just honest and open about it. I don’t “love atheists”. And I must point out again that neither do you. So what’s your problem? God certainly does not love everyone, at least not in the way He loves His elect.

Danny. We all should think, and pray that God will lead us by His love, when we debate, or speak with anybody. But, we should love them because Christ loved them first, and died for them, not because they might be "elect".

Here we go. So now you are saying Christ died for every single human being head for head? I’m not quite sure which bible you’re reading there, Rick.

[DannyM]

Rick, love the title of the thread -

Danny and Rick disagreeing. . . .

No change there, then

[jlay]

Far from a “philosophy”, Rick, it was hyperbole. I love my neighbour as best I can. I’m just honest and open about it. I don’t “love atheists”. And I must point out again that neither do you. So what’s your problem? God certainly does not love everyone, at least not in the way He loves His elect.

Sorry, Danny but who are you to judge Rick? You, rick, myself, may not 'feel' love for an atheist. But that is nothing of what Christ speaks. Christ commanded to love one's enemy. There simply isn't anything more plainly stated. He didn't say to have warm fuzzy feelings for them, or to even like them or what they do. Why would Christ command this? Because He loved His enemies.
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

When we were. That means, you, me, etc. WERE enemies. Not redeemed. Not elect. But dead in sin.
Colossians 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.

[RickD]

Did you not comment on their site, siding with the atheists? It was a debate about presuppositional apologetics, and you picked up on the YEC thing and commented on their site siding with them on that, ignoring the topic of the debate and how intellectually dishonest they were being.

No, Danny. I didn't "side" with anyone. If I gave that impression, then I'm sorry. I wasn't taking anyone's side. I was just trying to understand where Jim, and Alex are coming from.

Then what’s your point with this:
RickD wrote:
Maybe, if someone shows them the real love of Christ, then their defenses will come down. Certainly, bashing them over the head with spiritual arguments that they can't possibly comprehend in themselves, does more harm than good, IMO.
If it’s not aimed at Sye's approach?

It was aimed at Sye's approach. Not his motivations for his approach, as you suggested. I didn't say Sye's motivation wasn't based on love.

And did you look at the comments section?

I didn't look specifically at the comments you posted. I've seen plenty of comments by Jim and Alex, before. That's one reason why I didn't want to go on their podcast. Because, then my name would become public with them, and they could say whatever they wanted about me publically.

I don’t “love atheists”. And I must point out again that neither do you.

Danny, you keep saying this. That I don't love atheists. Why do you keep saying that? Danny, it is easy to love those that love us back. We, as Christians are supposed to be the light to the world. We are supposed to reflect the light of Christ. Especially to those who we find difficult to love.

RickD wrote:
Danny. We all should think, and pray that God will lead us by His love, when we debate, or speak with anybody. But, we should love them because Christ loved them first, and died for them, not because they might be "elect".


Here we go. So now you are saying Christ died for every single human being head for head? I’m not quite sure which bible you’re reading there, Rick.

Danny, I think it's pretty obvious that I'm disagreeing with Calvinism's idea of what the 'elect' is.

[DannyM]

Sorry, Danny but who are you to judge Rick?

Where am I judging Rick? And who are you to tell me I'm judging Rick when I'm merely admonishing him for his behaviour towards other Christians in front of and to other atheists?

And why on earth would I take advice on appropriate behaviour towards other Chistians from you? Do me a favour!

[DannyM]

Rick, that's fine, brother. I made my point and I stand by what I saw as disruptive at best. I know you're a good man, Rick, but I just feel your approach back then undermined the heart of the debate.