I'll try to layout why I'm starting to see it, August. I have a long day at work today, but I'll get to it as soon as I can.August wrote:Well, then it is time to show how that is true. There is a huge gap between what hypers believe and teach, and what Calvinist doctrine is.RickD wrote:I believe I'm beginning to understand what Bart is saying about Calvinism, taken to its logical conclusion, results in behavior like the behavior manifested by WBC.
WBC
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Re: WBC
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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Re: WBC
Just a word of caution, to me as well as others.
I have elements of Calvinism that I simply don't agree with anymore and I believe that taken logically to it's extreme that hyper-calvinism isn't quite the disconnect that mainstream Calvinists maintain it is. But that doesn't mean that I think at all that Calvinism has to degenerate into hyper-Calvinism and I accept that most Calvinists maintain in some places (like I do in places too) some level of cognative dissonance that removes them from living completely in accord with what they intellectually affirm. It's like the phrase "Trust like it all depends on God and Pray like it all depends on you."
I don't however, doubt the motives of most Calvinists in their search for truth, their belief in God or their sincerity.
It's hard to separate Calvinism from Calvinists. Please really be careful not to blur that line and let's not let this thread degenerate into Calvinist bashing (or Arminian bashing or whatever other directions things can take.)
If my comments have pushed in that direction, I hope this makes clear that this is not my heart nor my intent.
I have elements of Calvinism that I simply don't agree with anymore and I believe that taken logically to it's extreme that hyper-calvinism isn't quite the disconnect that mainstream Calvinists maintain it is. But that doesn't mean that I think at all that Calvinism has to degenerate into hyper-Calvinism and I accept that most Calvinists maintain in some places (like I do in places too) some level of cognative dissonance that removes them from living completely in accord with what they intellectually affirm. It's like the phrase "Trust like it all depends on God and Pray like it all depends on you."
I don't however, doubt the motives of most Calvinists in their search for truth, their belief in God or their sincerity.
It's hard to separate Calvinism from Calvinists. Please really be careful not to blur that line and let's not let this thread degenerate into Calvinist bashing (or Arminian bashing or whatever other directions things can take.)
If my comments have pushed in that direction, I hope this makes clear that this is not my heart nor my intent.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender
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Re: WBC
Well in that case its a case of embracing a theological system instead of God and Christ. Whatever you might want to say about Calvinism taken to its logical conclusion or any other system, even a perfunctory reading of the Gospels will do the trick and show you how you're supposed to treat people. In my mind its worth than flat-earthers because you have the text that you supposedly adhere to right in front of you.RickD wrote:I believe I'm beginning to understand what Bart is saying about Calvinism, taken to its logical conclusion, results in behavior like the behavior manifested by WBC.Somehow I just can't believe they're serious, although I don't know what their angle would be or what they would get with publicity. There's simply a complete lack of Christian love, charity, and compassion as clearly demonstrated by Christ. I just don't know how any Christian could possibly be so over the top, under any circumstance I just don't see it.
On another note, Narnia, I believe they are completely serious. Just look at some of the stunts they have pulled. And look at what the children in their church are saying. It's truly disgusting what hate they indoctrinate their children with. It's the same spirit, that certain Muslims use to indoctrinate their young children with, when they teach them to hate Jews.
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Re: WBC
This is what I have found, to understand what Bart was saying. This is my opinion only, and I'm not sure if it is any way, related to Bart's view.
For my response to August, I'll refer to the Calvinist website, that he showed me. So there won't be any disagreements with that end of my ideas.
http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/
At least WBC, is being consistent with the way their god acts.
And, this is why I had such a problem with what Danny said in another thread:
For my response to August, I'll refer to the Calvinist website, that he showed me. So there won't be any disagreements with that end of my ideas.
http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/
This Calvinist belief, especially the part I put in blue, is the beginning of how those in Calvinism have a basis for not showing the love of Christ, to all people they are in contact with. This Calvinist idea that God only loves the elect, and not all people is summed up perfectly in this old Calvinist hymn:Unconditional Election
Unconditional Election is the doctrine which states that God chose those whom he was pleased to bring to a knowledge of himself, not based upon any merit shown by the object of his grace and not based upon his looking forward to discover who would "accept" the offer of the gospel. God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and others for damnation (Romans 9:15,21). He has done this act before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4-8).
Now, if God doesn't love everyone, and that means God must hate the ones He doesn't love, then why should Calvinists not hate those that they believe God hates. They are just emulating their god.We are the Lord's elected few, let all the rest be damned; there's room enough in hell for you, we won't have heaven crammed!"
At least WBC, is being consistent with the way their god acts.
And, this is why I had such a problem with what Danny said in another thread:
This is why I think Calvinism, taken to its logical end, leads to a lack of love, as shown by the lives lived by the members of WBC, and by the statement of Danny, above.Where am I told to love arrogant, autonomous man? I don’t love atheists, Rick. Do you really love these people? I love whom I love and I love Christ and those in Christ. God doesn’t even love all people, Rick, so how do you think I should fair against such competition?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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Re: WBC
Well done for showing this glorious biblical doctrine, Rick.RickD wrote:God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and others for damnation (Romans 9:15,21). He has done this act before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4-8).
Then you might want to take this up with the apostle when you are in heaven, Rick. Why are you calling this a Calvinist belief? Isn’t it your belief, Rick? It’s certainly the apostle’s belief. See Romans 9This Calvinist belief, especially the part I put in blue, is the beginning of how those in Calvinism have a basis for not showing the love of Christ, to all people they are in contact with.
Do you dispute this?Now, if God doesn't love everyone, and that means God must hate the ones He doesn't love
then why should Calvinists not hate those that they believe God hates. They are just emulating their god.
Interesting. How would the Calvinist work that out, Rick?
The WBC are not representing Calvinism at all. Tell me though, Rick, do you believe in the God revealed by Paul in Ephesians and in Romans?At least WBC, is being consistent with the way their god acts.
I fall very short of the glory of God. And as I recall, we established that you do not love all atheists, Rick. Are you comparing me with the WBC? I’m not really sure why you felt you had to quote this; I guess that’s something only you’ll know.And, this is why I had such a problem with what Danny said in another thread:
Where am I told to love arrogant, autonomous man? I don’t love atheists, Rick. Do you really love these people? I love whom I love and I love Christ and those in Christ. God doesn’t even love all people, Rick, so how do you think I should fair against such competition?
Then the bible, taken to its logical end, leads to a lack of love, as shown by the lives lived by the members of WBC, and by the statement of Danny above.This is why I think Calvinism, taken to its logical end, leads to a lack of love, as shown by the lives lived by the members of WBC, and by the statement of Danny, above.
Wow.
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Re: WBC
Danny,
This is my opinion, on why I believe a belief in Calvinism, leads to a lack of love. It is not a personal attack on you. Just like any other doctrine I disagree with, is not a personal attack on the one who believes it. So, If you can understand that, then maybe we can proceed.
Here is a link that shows what Romans 9 , is about.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commenta ... ans-9.html
from the link:
Danny, we all fall short of the glory of God. And contrary to what you believe I'm doing, this isn't a personal attack on you. If you go back to the thread where I originally had a problem with your quote, you'll see that I had a problem with what you said. And it was never an attack on you, personally. I quoted your quote, to show it in the context of what I'm saying about where Calvinism logically leads. And, I'm comparing your quote to WBC. I'm certainly not comparing you to the members of WBC. I want to make that perfectly clear.
I know you can't separate Calvinism's interpretation of the bible, and the bible itself, Danny. That's why I was talking before, about not being stuck in a belief system, such as Calvinism, or any other ism. Because that just leads to interpreting the bible through the ism, not by the bible itself. I'm saying that the best way to read the bible, is to read, while letting the Holy Spirit speak to us. Not reading in light of how some "ism" interprets it. I hope you understand that this wasn't a personal attack against you, or anyone else.
This is my opinion, on why I believe a belief in Calvinism, leads to a lack of love. It is not a personal attack on you. Just like any other doctrine I disagree with, is not a personal attack on the one who believes it. So, If you can understand that, then maybe we can proceed.
Unconditional Election
Unconditional Election is the doctrine which states that God chose those whom he was pleased to bring to a knowledge of himself, not based upon any merit shown by the object of his grace and not based upon his looking forward to discover who would "accept" the offer of the gospel. God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and others for damnation (Romans 9:15,21). He has done this act before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4-8).
Danny, this "Unconditional Election" shown here in the quote of the Calvinist site, is taking the passages in Romans, out of context. Romans 9, isn't referring to election to eternal life, and damnation to eternity, for those who God chooses, by the council of His own will.Well done for showing this glorious biblical doctrine, Rick.
Here is a link that shows what Romans 9 , is about.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commenta ... ans-9.html
from the link:
In this chapter St. Paul, after strongly declaring his love and esteem for them, sets himself to answer the grand objection of his countrymen; namely, that the rejection of the Jews and reception of the gentiles was contrary to the word of God. That he had not here the least thought of personal election or reprobation is manifest,
Danny, see above link, to understand what Romans 9 is saying. The part in blue here:God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and others for damnation (Romans 9:15,21). He has done this act before the foundations of the world, is the Calvinist belief, that is derived from reading Romans 9, in improper context.This Calvinist belief, especially the part I put in blue, is the beginning of how those in Calvinism have a basis for not showing the love of Christ, to all people they are in contact with.
Then you might want to take this up with the apostle when you are in heaven, Rick. Why are you calling this a Calvinist belief? Isn’t it your belief, Rick? It’s certainly the apostle’s belief. See Romans 9
I absolutely dispute, that what God means by "hate", is the same meaning that WBC shows by their actions, to be the meaning of hate.Now, if God doesn't love everyone, and that means God must hate the ones He doesn't love
Do you dispute this?
Danny, you can see how when someone takes what they see as "hate" of unbelievers, to its logical conclusion, we end up with the actions, and un-Christlike hate of unbelievers.then why should Calvinists not hate those that they believe God hates. They are just emulating their god.
Interesting. How would the Calvinist work that out, Rick?
Danny, WBC, as crazy as they are, DO represent what happens when Calvinism is taken all the way, to its logical end. Fortunately, all Calvinists don't take Calvinism "all the way" as WBC does.The WBC are not representing Calvinism at all. Tell me though, Rick, do you believe in the God revealed by Paul in Ephesians and in Romans?
Danny, I posted your quote, to show that it is where "holding to Calvinism" leads. Your quote is Calvinist at its core.Where am I told to love arrogant, autonomous man? I don’t love atheists, Rick. Do you really love these people? I love whom I love and I love Christ and those in Christ. God doesn’t even love all people, Rick, so how do you think I should fair against such competition?
I fall very short of the glory of God. And as I recall, we established that you do not love all atheists, Rick. Are you comparing me with the WBC? I’m not really sure why you felt you had to quote this; I guess that’s something only you’ll know.
Danny, we all fall short of the glory of God. And contrary to what you believe I'm doing, this isn't a personal attack on you. If you go back to the thread where I originally had a problem with your quote, you'll see that I had a problem with what you said. And it was never an attack on you, personally. I quoted your quote, to show it in the context of what I'm saying about where Calvinism logically leads. And, I'm comparing your quote to WBC. I'm certainly not comparing you to the members of WBC. I want to make that perfectly clear.
No, Danny. How Calvinists interpret the bible, out of context, leads to a lack of love, as shown by the lives lived by the members of WBC, and by the statement of Danny above.This is why I think Calvinism, taken to its logical end, leads to a lack of love, as shown by the lives lived by the members of WBC, and by the statement of Danny, above.
Then the bible, taken to its logical end, leads to a lack of love, as shown by the lives lived by the members of WBC, and by the statement of Danny above.
I know you can't separate Calvinism's interpretation of the bible, and the bible itself, Danny. That's why I was talking before, about not being stuck in a belief system, such as Calvinism, or any other ism. Because that just leads to interpreting the bible through the ism, not by the bible itself. I'm saying that the best way to read the bible, is to read, while letting the Holy Spirit speak to us. Not reading in light of how some "ism" interprets it. I hope you understand that this wasn't a personal attack against you, or anyone else.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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Re: WBC
As with any verse out of context, we have the danger of reading our theology into the text. As opposes to having our theology shaped by the text. I think Rick makes a very good point about this verse.
Ultimately Calvanism boils down to preprogramming. Faith is preprogrammed. Grace is irresistible. Hey, if that is the way it is, then so be it. Let every man be proved a liar. But, let's not be so naive that quoting a verse, verifies these reformed definititions of these doctrines. They don't. I have no problem understanding the verse to refer to eternal life and eternal damnation. But, that doesn't confirm Calvanism. I gave an illustration the last time we had a huge thread on Calvanism. Maybe I can dig it up.
Ultimately Calvanism boils down to preprogramming. Faith is preprogrammed. Grace is irresistible. Hey, if that is the way it is, then so be it. Let every man be proved a liar. But, let's not be so naive that quoting a verse, verifies these reformed definititions of these doctrines. They don't. I have no problem understanding the verse to refer to eternal life and eternal damnation. But, that doesn't confirm Calvanism. I gave an illustration the last time we had a huge thread on Calvanism. Maybe I can dig it up.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord
"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
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Re: WBC
My problem doesn't lie with if one interprets the verse to refer to eternal life and eternal damnation, either. My problem lies when one interprets the verse to refer to eternal life, and eternal damnation, in a Calvinist sense, that election is determined solely by God's choice of damning some people without those people having a choice to accept or reject the gospel.I have no problem understanding the verse to refer to eternal life and eternal damnation.
Please do. Maybe it will help.I gave an illustration the last time we had a huge thread on Calvanism. Maybe I can dig it up.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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Re: WBC
Maybe Bart will chime in soon. I'm anxious to see his take on this.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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Re: WBC
Rick, really? John Wesley denying individual election in Romans 9? Is that it? So I take it by this you want to deny individual election and individual damnation?
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Re: WBC
Which verse?jlay wrote:As with any verse out of context, we have the danger of reading our theology into the text. As opposes to having our theology shaped by the text. I think Rick makes a very good point about this verse.
Yeah, hear that one alot. Nice little soundbite you've got going for yourself there. What do you hold to, Jlay?Ultimately Calvanism boils down to preprogramming. Faith is preprogrammed. Grace is irresistible. Hey, if that is the way it is, then so be it. Let every man be proved a liar. But, let's not be so naive that quoting a verse, verifies these reformed definititions of these doctrines
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Re: WBC
The verse that Rick referred to being taken our of context.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord
"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
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Re: WBC
9:15 or 9:21? What do you think the context is?jlay wrote:The verse that Rick referred to being taken our of context.
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Re: WBC
The context is not what I think. Paul states the context in Romans. Speicifcally in chapter 9 as it relates to Israel and its promises. The idea of the Gentiles being heirs of salvation was controversial to say the least. Not much of an issue today, but in the 'context' of the 1st century audience of the espistle, quite large. The things we tend to focus on today, may not have been much of a thought then.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord
"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
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Re: WBC
Danny, I believe Wesley, was more Arminian. So, yes, he would deny the Calvinist view. If that's what you're asking.DannyM wrote:Rick, really? John Wesley denying individual election in Romans 9? Is that it? So I take it by this you want to deny individual election and individual damnation?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony