Hi Danny.
RickD wrote:Danny, I certainly don't expect you to agree with me. But, I would hope that you would at least make an effort to listen to what I'm saying, before you disagree. I know at times, I don't properly convey my thoughts. But, in this case, I think I was perfectly clear, on where I stand. God doesn't have an eternal relationship with all people, because some people choose to reject God's provision, for eternal life. Again, forced love, is not true love.
Whoever said anything about forced love, Rick?
Danny, in this thread, I did. My point was that if there's no choice by man, then it's not real love.
Okay. So God has offered salvation to all and been rejected by the many?
I agree, as long as "all" means something different than the elect, as laid out here:
Unconditional Election is the doctrine which states that God chose those whom he was pleased to bring to a knowledge of himself, not based upon any merit shown by the object of his grace and not based upon his looking forward to discover who would "accept" the offer of the gospel. God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and others for damnation (Romans 9:15,21). He has done this act before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4-8).
RickD wrote:Who says God doesn't draw everyone? The bible certainly doesn't say that.
Danny, I know how fond you are of quoting Jesus' words. So pay attention to what our Lord says here in John 12:32:
But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
That's Jesus' own words, Danny.
Rick, the burden is on you to show that this means ALL men head for head. Our Lord say this:
Danny, I've never argued that "all" means all mean head for head. I've just tried to show what I believe "all" doesn't mean. See above.
John 6:37-39
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
John 6:44
No-one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Christ says that out of all those whom God draws, He will lose none. Now since we know that not all men are saved, this tells us in no uncertain terms that God does not draw all men.
Danny, you forgot John 6:40
40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
Anyone who believes, will have eternal life. We agree on all of this, Danny. what I said before, is I think the disagreement begins, in how you and I see the nature of God.
But taking your interpretation of foreknowledge and predestination (even though I think it is completely inadequate): before the foundation of the world, God knew that you would make a free decision to come to Christ, agreed?
Close. It depends on what definition of "free" we are using. Absolute, libertarian free? Then, no. Free will, in as much as God grants us the ability to choose? Then, yes.
God knew of your free decision long before you were even born. Your decision to come to Christ was thus inevitable. Why was it inevitable?
It was inevitable, IMO, because God has foreknowledge of the decision He enabled us to make. And, obviously, to me, If God knows something will happen, then it is inevitable.
Was it down to your free will, even though you had not yet been born?
Yes, it was partly due to my choice that God enabled me to make. In this instance, "free will", isn't the best way to communicate this.
See, this is where “middle knowledge” refutes itself by its total dependence on God’s foreknowledge and creation.
No, Danny. I have no idea what "middle knowledge" even is. jlay was the one who mentioned that.
For Total Depravity simply read Total Inability to come to Christ of our own volition without a prior quickening from God.
And, this gets back to the heart of why I disagree with Calvinism. The sentence:"For Total Depravity simply read Total Inability to come to Christ of our own volition without a prior quickening from God." Will get no disagreement from me. But, when we get into what Calvinism really means by "total depravity", and "prior Quickening", then I disagree with Calvinism.
That's why I asked you, and August to define what these terms mean in Calvinism, so I can show you why I disagree with Calvinism's definition, and show you why I disagree with the foundation of Calvinism.
So, please lay out what Calvinism means by total depravity, and according to Calvinism, what exactly God does to quicken someone. Then we can proceed, and I can say why I disagree with Calvinism's interpretation, of terms that I don't necessarily disagree with, under other interpretations. You see, Danny. I don't disagree with the bible verses that you quote. I just disagree with how they are interpreted in light of Calvinism, in certain, but certainly not all, instances. Like I said before, there are parts of Calvinism that I agree with. Because I look at Calvinism and Arminianism, from outside both, I don't have to study Arminianism, through Calvinist lenses. And I don't have to analyze Calvinism, through Arminian glasses. You, by saying you hold to Calvinism, have to look at Arminianism(or something you may perceive as Arminianism), on how it disagrees with Calvinism. You have "locked yourself" into viewing all theology, by the light of Calvinism. I know you believe 5 point Calvinism is biblical. But it is still an interpretation of what's biblical. Do you see my point?