William Craig Lane and Bart Erhman debate

[Amalric]

I believe that my view of Paul’s view of Jesus’ resurrection and the general resurrection are consistent. I am not convinced Paul believed there was any physical side to the resurrected body (1 Cor 15).

There is nothing in 1Cor 15 that indicates a disemboded spiritual being, Paul simply states the resurrected body will be impershiable and spiritual not "immaterial".

I am not sure I am saying that a spiritual body is disembodied. I am just saying it isn’t flesh and bone.

The Resurrected Jesus didn’t look like the physical body of Jesus Lk 24:16, Jn 21:4
The Resurrected Jesus can just disappear unlike someone with a physical body Lk 24:31, 51
The Resurrected Jesus can just appear in rooms rather than entering via a door Lk 24:36 Jn 20:19, 26

Plus there is the alternative tradition that the Resurrected Jesus could be touched and eat food! It could be just a matter of choice or it could be a matter of deciding which is the earlier tradition!

Are you PaulSacramento saying that Paul believed in a spiritual existence for the dead before resurrection? If you are what texts do you have to support it?

The spirit returns to God on our death.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to
the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.
Psalms 31:5 Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.
Ecclesiastes 8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.
Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

So firstly you are not saying that Paul believed in a spiritual existence for the dead before resurrection. Secondly you are providing the evidence not provided by N.T. Wright.

The context of Ecclesiastes 12:7 seems to be talking about the end of time for when “the spirit shall return to God who gave it.”12:1b-2 “the evil days come, and the years draw nigh, when you will say, "I have no pleasure in them"; before the sun and the light and the moon and the stars are darkened;”
Ecclesiastes 8:8 doesn’t necessary mean that the spirit is released at death. Also the author of Ecclesiastes states men and beasts “All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again” (Ecc 3:19). Does he believe in a judgment by God so only the good spirits end up with God? Ecc 3:17 – “I said in my heart, God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for he has appointed a time for every matter, and for every work.” Ecc 11:7b – “But know that for all these things God will bring you into judgment.”

If you interpret Ecclesiastes 12:7 as not including a judgment by God at the end of time then everyone’s spirit ends up with God, both the good and the bad.

Psalms 31:5 and Acts 7:59 again this does not need the Spirit to be instantly in heaven with God, but can be seen as a giving act and doesn’t need there to be a death. Even if there is death it can still be interpreted as a future redemption at the end of time. The writer of the Psalms also believes in an end of time judgment – “before the LORD, for he comes to judge the earth. He will judge the world with righteousness, and the peoples with equity.” (Psalm 98:9) We don’t know how Paul interprets these texts.

[PaulSacramento]

Ah, sorry, being named Paul I misunderstood what you were asking, LOL !
I posted the passages that, in my view, show that the spirit returns to God.
If you interpret them differently that is fine and I respect that.

You said:

I am not sure I am saying that a spiritual body is disembodied. I am just saying it isn’t flesh and bone.

If it is not flesh and bone like Christ's was, then what was it if NOT disembodied which means:
1. lacking a body or freed from the body; incorporeal
2. lacking in substance, solidity, or any firm relation to reality

As for St.Paul and whether he believed that the spirit went to God, well I don't recall any explicit comment but implicit would perhaps be when He comments that He would prefer to be with Christ.
To Live Is Christ
Philipians 1:
21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; 24yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake. 25Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith, 26so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again.

[Amalric]

You said:

I am not sure I am saying that a spiritual body is disembodied. I am just saying it isn’t flesh and bone.

If it is not flesh and bone like Christ's was, then what was it if NOT disembodied which means:
1. lacking a body or freed from the body; incorporeal
2. lacking in substance, solidity, or any firm relation to reality

Disembodied to me means lacking a body and an angel has a body. A body doesn’t need to be physical and I believe that is why Paul can talk of a Spiritual body. The Greek word is soma and can have a wide meaning including “a sound whole”. I think Paul talks about body as being the Christian community. Therefore I don’t find the word disembodied useful.

As for St.Paul and whether he believed that the spirit went to God, well I don't recall any explicit comment but implicit would perhaps be when He comments that He would prefer to be with Christ.
To Live Is Christ
Philipians 1:
21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; 24yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake. 25Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith, 26so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again.

I thought Paul believed Christ was with us while we live, but it does seem he wished to be dead so he could be with Christ. He does refer to the day of Christ verses 6 and 10. He also talks about sharing Jesus’ sufferings and death and “that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.” Phil 3:11
However he still talks of us being in heaven after the second coming, “[20] But our community is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
[21] who will transform our lowly body to be conformed to his glorious body, by the power which enables him even to subject all things to himself.”

Paul also talks about those people who are dead in Christ (1 Thess 4:14-16) being raised up at the end of time and it is only after this that they are with Christ forever.

“[14] For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
[15] For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first;
[17] then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.”

Those who are dead are not with God they are “asleep” until the time of the second coming,

However I do have a problem with a theology that says everyone is with God in heaven once they die, but at some time in the future everyone will be judged and then some people will be ejected from heaven. I much prefer a theology that says we have no existence between death and the final judgment when those who are saved are raised up into heaven.

Also I think Jesus disagrees with you about what it will be like after people have been resurrected,
“For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven” (Mk 12:25).

[PaulSacramento]

Those who are dead are not with God they are “asleep” until the time of the second coming,

However I do have a problem with a theology that says everyone is with God in heaven once they die, but at some time in the future everyone will be judged and then some people will be ejected from heaven. I much prefer a theology that says we have no existence between death and the final judgment when those who are saved are raised up into heaven.

Also I think Jesus disagrees with you about what it will be like after people have been resurrected,
“For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven” (Mk 12:25).

Our souls sleep, yes, but our spirits return to God.
Our spirits return to God is biblical, both OT AND NT.
At the last day, at judgment, our bodies are resurrected, our spirit returns and we once again become living souls.
Yes, I agree that our bodies will be like the angels, Just as Christ said.

[Amalric]

Our souls sleep, yes, but our spirits return to God.
Our spirits return to God is biblical, both OT AND NT.
At the last day, at judgment, our bodies are resurrected, our spirit returns and we once again become living souls.
Yes, I agree that our bodies will be like the angels, Just as Christ said.

Firstly you are free to believe whatever you wish, however I disagree that what you believe is Bible based. And I don’t think it is logical. You seem to be saying everyone’s spirit goes to heaven to be with God, but at the last day after existing in heaven for years we are finally judged and then we can be with God.

I would be interesting in see any Bible passages that support your belief that our souls sleep while our spirits return to God.

I think our souls are the essence of us, which is why Mary can say, “My soul doth magnify the Lord” (Lk 1:46) and maybe sometimes it is also called our spirit as in “and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour” (Lk 1:47). Sometimes spirit is used in the sense of celestial as Paul does in 1 Cor 15.

Therefore I believe that Paul states that at the end of time our souls that have been asleep are raised into a Spiritual body or a celestial body or a body suitable for heaven (in the same way as our physical bodies are suitable for living on the earth).

I thought you believed that once we were resurrected we would have physical bodies unlike angels who have celestial bodies, which is why they are often depicted as not being able to eat food or be touched. It seems you don’t believe that now.

[PaulSacramento]

I would be interesting in see any Bible passages that support your belief that our souls sleep while our spirits return to God

Ecclesiastes 12:7
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

As for the soul "sleeping", that terminology is used quite a bit for the dead, Jesus uses it of Lazarus for example.
It is a way of expressing the "rest" that the soul has until the resurrection:
(Luke 8:52; 1 Corinthians 15:6)

We become a living soul when our spirit is given to us and when it leaves us to return to God, we become a "sleeping" soul or a dead one if you prefer the term.

[Amalric]

I would be interesting in see any Bible passages that support your belief that our souls sleep while our spirits return to God

Ecclesiastes 12:7
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

As for the soul "sleeping", that terminology is used quite a bit for the dead, Jesus uses it of Lazarus for example.
It is a way of expressing the "rest" that the soul has until the resurrection:
(Luke 8:52; 1 Corinthians 15:6)

We become a living soul when our spirit is given to us and when it leaves us to return to God, we become a "sleeping" soul or a dead one if you prefer the term.

I have no issue with the idea that when we are dead there is no existence because it is like we are “asleep” and then at the final judgment we are awoken and become spiritual beings like the angels. I believe this is what Paul believed (1 Thess 4:14-16).

This is not the same as saying we have a soul that sleeps but at the same time we have a spirit that returns to God. I have already commented on Ecclesiastes 12:7 that this either happens at the judgment or means there is no judgment and no sleeping soul. However I now understand how you come to your position about souls and spirits even if there is no passage that supports both positions together. There are passages which support each of them and you have harmonised them.