I have an idea why: because they have not been regenerated.RickD wrote:That's a great question, Danny. I really don't know why some men choose not to believe. I certainly could guess, but I just don't know for sure.The question stands. Why do some men not believe? Do they identify the grace and just ignore it? If they do not identify the grace then why not if it’s ‘there’?
So God quickens all and only some choose to respond to the quickening? [Or is the quickening only identifiable to some?]
So men are first quickened and then reject the quickening? Rick, if that’s what you are saying, then our Lord must have been mistaken:RickD wrote:I think all who are quickened, respond. They either accept the gospel, or they deny Christ. And by denying the gospel of Christ, they deny the only way they have to gain eternal life.
John 6:37,39
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
John 6:44
No-one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
But of course our Lord can not have been mistaken. Since Christ loses none of those whom the Father draws, and since we know that not all men are saved, this means that God does not draw all men. Now if you disagree with this reading, Rick, then please offer an alternative reading of these verses.
Either way we surely end up with a pretty inefficient mode of regeneration, don’t we?
Neither would I, Rick. But if salvation is offered to all men head for head, then the mode of regeneration is comparatively shoddy.RickD wrote:I'm not sure I would call the work of Christ, through the power of the Holy Spirit, inefficient.
But what about this:
John 10:15
just as the Father knows me and I know the Father— and I lay down my life for the sheep.
John 10:26
but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.
10:26 does not say “you are not my sheep because you do not believe”; it says “you do not believe because you are not my sheep.” God’s grace is clearly withdrawn, Rick. Again, if you think I am interpreting this falsely, please offer an alternative reading here.
If Calvinism is true? Rick, are Christ’s words true?
Rick, Christ died for His sheep. If Christ’s sheep are not His own then who or what are they? I’m giving you my interpretation on a plain reading of the texts, Rick. Now I know we can all claim to be applying a plain reading, so with that in mind I’d now like to see your reading of these verses I’m putting up, bro.RickD wrote:Danny, if by "Christ's words", you mean he said he only died for the elect, then I certainly don't see what you're seeing.
You have just reverted back to the same line as before. How many times does it need to be pointed out that we do not know who the elect are? Instead of just repeating this fallacious line, why not address our Lord and Saviour’s own words? Where’s Calvinism in our Lord’s own words above? You have issues with Christ’s words, brother, not John Calvin. You’ve basically inferred the same bogus “logical conclusion” as before, thus bringing us full circle.RickD wrote:No, Danny. You are adding to Christ's words. He didn't say he only died for the elect. You inferred that. Danny, for the umpteenth time, I have issues with Calvinism's interpretation of scripture. I certainly don't disagree with Christ's words.