Hell and an Agnostic Atheist

[StMonicaGuideMe]

Prove, how I am wrong, without smuggling in objective morality, Ken.

He can't

It may be just a hunch, but I kinda believe that we won't be hearing from KenV on this board anymore (I'd like to be wrong though)... But I mean, he hasn't logged in for nearly 48 hours.

Is 18 posts a highscore for newcoming atheists around here?

Awww, Reactionary, you know how much I like you, but let's be fair to him. He did remain very respectful and was coming here for answers. We need to pray for souls like his -- he's searching and the devil will be pulling at him more and more now that he's found us. We have to be charitable even to those who don't "deserve" it. We are no different from any of the atheists who insult us, or ignorant towards us, if we high-brow them. It's hard, for sure, to pray for people like that, but in the end, God will make good of it, even if we do it with our teeth gritted

[Reactionary]

Awww, Reactionary, you know how much I like you,

I'm flattered.

but let's be fair to him. He did remain very respectful and was coming here for answers. We need to pray for souls like his -- he's searching and the devil will be pulling at him more and more now that he's found us.

I understand, that's why I corrected myself. The thing is, most atheists I deal with are arrogant and contradictory people who pretend to be intellectuals by using complex terms they don't fully understand themselves, who play "I'm-so-smarter-than-you"-like games, and accuse me of making logical fallacies but at the same time failing to account for logic in the first place.

So I'm sometimes unfairly on guard because of negative experiences. I'm just so frustrated with the fact that I see evolutionary indoctrination everywhere. Whether I want to read up about interpersonal relationships, or manual transmission in motor vehicles, I always somehow come across a direct or indirect reference to our alleged ape-like ancestors.

But everything you pointed out stands - I'm aware that we shouldn't generalize. It's just my temperament, in which my young age definitely plays a role. However, I mustn't use that as an excuse - our worldview doesn't allow blaming genes.

[Murray]

So I'm sometimes unfairly on guard because of negative experiences. I'm just so frustrated with the fact that I see evolutionary indoctrination everywhere. Whether I want to read up about interpersonal relationships, or manual transmission in motor vehicles, I always somehow come across a direct or indirect reference to our alleged ape-like ancestors.

That pretty much sums up how I feel as well.

[Jonathan_95]

Hi,

God is God, do you think it is meant for everything in the bible and so, to be logic for us? Since he's so smart, and divine, we cannot comprehend.
That's what we have faith for.

[StMonicaGuideMe]

Hi,

God is God, do you think it is meant for everything in the bible and so, to be logic for us? Since he's so smart, and divine, we cannot comprehend.
That's what we have faith for.

Welcome, Jonathan

God may be beyond us in intelligence and obviously divinity, but He is gracious and loving, and has made His truth known to us in the way our mere human minds can comprehend along with faith. He knows we SHOULD be smart enough to simply deduce the possibility of His existence and shows us along the way even more.

[Tiffany Dawn]

This website may help you to better understand the place called hell.

See: http://www.av1611.org/hell.html

[Murray]

I think BW's book gives a pretty good idea of hell as well.

[cheezerrox]

This website may help you to better understand the place called hell.

See: http://www.av1611.org/hell.html

Well, I've seen the site before, would like to point out that a lot of the scripture that site quotes is from a bit of a mistranslation. It quotes Acts 2:31 as speaking of Hell, when it's actually referring to Hades, which contrary to what a lot of people think, is a different place altogether. The same with the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, it speaks of Hades, not Hell. Hades is the abode of the dead, both righteous and the wicked. Acts 2:31 is quoting Psalm 16:10, where the word used is Sheol. This shows that Sheol and Hades are interchangeable. Sheol is described specifically in Ecclesiastes 9:10, where it says there is no knowledge or activity or planning there. And in Psalm 6:5, it specifies the dead in Sheol have no contact or knowledge of God. And as for the parable, it's just that; a parable. It's not meant to be taken completely literally or as pure fact. For the sake of the story and its message, contrasting someone with pleasure and rest with someone who is in torment is easier than two people who are not conscious. And if that's not a good enough explanation, then there's the fact that the righteous dead and the wicked dead are communicating in it, where it's specified in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 that the wicked will be eternally destroyed, away from the presence of God. So, they can't communicate with anyone in heaven, who is in the presence of God.

[Tiffany Dawn]

This website may help you to better understand the place called hell.

See: http://www.av1611.org/hell.html

Well, I've seen the site before, would like to point out that a lot of the scripture that site quotes is from a bit of a mistranslation. It quotes Acts 2:31 as speaking of Hell, when it's actually referring to Hades, which contrary to what a lot of people think, is a different place altogether. The same with the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, it speaks of Hades, not Hell. Hades is the abode of the dead, both righteous and the wicked. Acts 2:31 is quoting Psalm 16:10, where the word used is Sheol. This shows that Sheol and Hades are interchangeable. Sheol is described specifically in Ecclesiastes 9:10, where it says there is no knowledge or activity or planning there. And in Psalm 6:5, it specifies the dead in Sheol have no contact or knowledge of God. And as for the parable, it's just that; a parable. It's not meant to be taken completely literally or as pure fact. For the sake of the story and its message, contrasting someone with pleasure and rest with someone who is in torment is easier than two people who are not conscious. And if that's not a good enough explanation, then there's the fact that the righteous dead and the wicked dead are communicating in it, where it's specified in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 that the wicked will be eternally destroyed, away from the presence of God. So, they can't communicate with anyone in heaven, who is in the presence of God.

*******************************************
This is why we should always go back to God's Word to check behind the source of information. This is our responsibility as "Christians".

Perhaps this info should make things more simple and less confusing-

Sheol - - The concept 'sheol' conveys is the 'the underworld'. The abode of the dead. A place:
of no return;
where there is no praise of God;
where the wicked were sent for punishment.
A place of exile from God.
The righteous are not abandoned to it.
The place of torment, commonly called hell, where devils and damned spirits are; hither the souls of the wicked go immediately upon their departure from their bodies.
Hades (Hell) - - The word 'hades' (hell) is derived from name 'Pluto' (Hades), who the ancient Romans & Greeks believed was the god of the underworld, the nether world, the realm of the dead. Therefore it conveys a 'dwelling place.'
Gehenna - - 'Gehenna' is derived from the Hebrew, 'Ge-Hinnom', the valley of Hinnom. A valley of Jerusalem that was used to dump dead animals and waste in. The heaps of refuse were then burned. It was figuratively used to designate 'a place of eternal dwelling and eternal punishment'.
We can see that the words 'gehenna, sheol, hades (hell)' meant more to the authors of the original biblical manuscripts than simply a hole in the ground called a grave. These words signified to all the writers of the manuscripts, 'a dwelling place of eternal punishment'. This was, and is, the concept they meant their readers to envision.
"And in hell (hades) he lifted up his eyes, being in torments,
and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame. "
Luke 16:23-24
Several Hebrew & Aramaic words were used to denote 'grave, sepulchre, tomb' by the authors of the original scriptural manuscripts. They are transliterated as: 'qatat, qeber, pathach, beiy, shachath, & qeburah'. The only Greek word, used by the authors of the original Bible manuscripts, to denote the grave, sepulchre, or tomb, was transliterated as, 'mnemeion'. The Hebrew words to signify 'death' were: 'maveth & muth' (the most common); occasionally used were 'mohth; tsalmaveth; & temuthah'. Several Greek words were used by the authors to signify 'death.' They were: 'thanatos & thanatoo' (the most commonly used); occasionally used were 'teleute; echo; anairesis; & anaireo'. As you can see hell, hades, gehenna, and sheol were not used to denote the grave or death.
Further scriptural evidence showing that hades(hell), gehenna, & sheol, represent
'a place' rather than just a grave-

See: http://acharlie.tripod.com/bible_study/hell_hades.html
See: Eternal Punishment
(Damnation - Condemnation)
"These, then, will be sent off to eternal punishment,
but the righteous will go to eternal life."
(Mat 25:46)

{Quote} The Bible speaks of only two destinies for mankind - Eternal Life or Eternal Punishment (Condemnation, Damnation). Christianity seems to have drifted away from the 'hell fire & brimstone' preaching that was prevalent for a long time. While it is much better to focus on God's Love; His sense of Justice, and man's reprobation, should not be overlooked, or swept under the rug. Mankind needs to know that these are its only true destinies; yet, we find many of today's Christian Preachers & Teachers failing to address the issue of Eternal Punishment. We even have whole segments of supposedly Christian Denominations, Churches, now teaching that there is no such thing as Eternal Damnation (Condemnation). Their reasoning is that since "God is love" (1 John 4:16) He could not possibly sentence someone to be punished for eternity. It is no mystery that these groups are becoming extremely popular. Their message is pleasing to hear. Just imagine, "No matter what, everyone is going to Heaven." Holy Scripture addresses this situation,
- - "The time will come when people will not listen to sound doctrine, but will follow their own desires and will collect for themselves more and more teachers who will tell them what they are itching to hear. They will turn away from listening to the truth and give their attention to legends."
(2Ti 4:3-4)
Regardless of the beliefs of some, the Bible clearly teaches Eternal Punishment (Condemnation - Damnation). On a another page, I have already established that Hell is a real place, not just symbolic of the grave. For those interested in the truth concerning God's Justice, I have listed appropriate verses below. May the Holy Spirit guide & enlighten you as you study them. {Un-Quote}

See: http://acharlie.tripod.com/bible_study/ ... hment.html#
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

American King James Version
He seeing this before spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Foreseeing this, he spoke of the resurrection of Christ. For neither was he left in hell, neither did his flesh see corruption.

Webster's Bible Translation
He seeing this before, spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither did his flesh see corruption.

Weymouth New Testament
with prophetic foresight he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, to the effect that He was not left forsaken in the Unseen World, nor did His body undergo decay.

In fact, the Bible teaches us more about Hell than Heaven.

[Danieltwotwenty]

This website may help you to better understand the place called hell.

See: http://www.av1611.org/hell.html

Some of the story's in this link were found to be hoax's e.g the hole drilled and they heard voices etc....
I don't think this article is doing Christains any favors, i don't believe in Christ because im scared of going to hell.


Daniel

[Tiffany Dawn]

This website may help you to better understand the place called hell.

See: http://www.av1611.org/hell.html

Some of the story's in this link were found to be hoax's e.g the hole drilled and they heard voices etc....
I don't think this site is doing Christians any favors, i don't believe because im scared of going to hell.


Daniel

************************************

I'm with you on that drilling into hell-I don't believe that either-
The only thing I believe on that site is the Bible verses and I do believe the stuff about the doctor and the NDE's because I have a family member
that works in the operating room where they do Heart surgeries and she has told me some really strange things that happen in that operating room and so
have some other nurses that are friend's of mine. Even down to the Grim Reaper going into another room-
You don't have to believe any of this info but it happens.A dead body is useless to demons
I hope you don't think me strange

[Danieltwotwenty]

This website may help you to better understand the place called hell.

See: http://www.av1611.org/hell.html

Some of the story's in this link were found to be hoax's e.g the hole drilled and they heard voices etc....
I don't think this site is doing Christians any favors, i don't believe because im scared of going to hell.


Daniel

************************************

I'm with you on that drilling into hell-I don't believe that either-
The only thing I believe on that site is the Bible verses and I do believe the stuff about the doctor and the NDE's because I have a family member
that works in the operating room where they do Heart surgeries and she has told me some really strange things that happen in that operating room and so
have some other nurses that are friend's of mine. Even down to the Grim Reaper going into another room-
You don't have to believe any of this info but it happens.A dead body is useless to demons
I hope you don't think me strange

No not at all, i just didn't think that site was a very good example.


Dan

[KenV]

I'm back!

I've got to say I'm pretty surprised to see this is STILL on the top of the page lol. I'm getting a second degree and it was finals time so the last few weeks (plus my job) has kept me more than busy enough. I almost felt like if I was devoting my time to anything besides studying/work I was frivolously wasting it. Also, it is pretty tiresome to argue 10+ people at once without anyone else on my side to pick up the slack. There seems to be way too much for me to comment back on, I'll pick a few for now:

(Also, I've got to say I just hate this forum's format. It makes quoting things a real pain in the neck )

Whoa, you used to be a Christian? you knew Christ? If you knew Christ, how did you unknow Him? Could it be that you participated in a religious process, and thus thought of yourself as a Christian? But, you never were what the Bible requires for a beleiver. It is prejudicial and arbitrary to say, unitl you began to think for yourself. Christianity is not an imposed ideology regardless of what some narrow minded bible belt church may have imposed on you. The Bible existed long before they did. I live in Tennessee. I rebelled against the church to 'free my mind.' Are you telling me that none of us here think for ourselves? Could your perception of genuine Christianity be badly warped because of your upbringing?

Use to be as in I was until I was 11 or 12 and met someone who wasn't religious, which in turn made me think about it and decided it didn't make much sense. Hasn't made much sense to me ever since. I probably was never a Christian as some people here would refer to it, I just know at one point in my child hood I just accepted that God was a real thing, like Santa Claus, did the whole praying bit and everything. The point being, I wasn't raised as an atheist.

Good according to what?
Jesus didn't come to make bad people good, He came to make dead people live.

So the whole deal here is that you believe we need something higher to give us morality because we can't make it our own, but you also believe that we have an inherent sense of morality as displayed by this poster:

Very apt comparison. You cannot derive an ought from an is, you cannot get objective morality from a collection of random particles. If anyone said that a computer was good or evil for its actions or a plant or the sun for rising and falling, he'd be ridiculed. And yet assuming atheism, we're no more or less than any collection of atoms whether it be a plant or a computer or anything. Of course the problem is that the existence of moral laws seems basic and obvious. Its a problem for the atheist for sure, I'm glad I'm not one.

The existence of moral laws does seem basic and obvious. But I don't think they need to have been given to us, I think that as a species we are born with this inherent knowledge for one evolutionary purpose or another. Morality is a guiding principle in keeping your offspring from dying, to work as a team, to get the desire to have and raise kids. It has a purpose, just not a divine one.

I mean even in Christianity there is a ton of stuff that we omit today as if it doesn't exist, but the Bible says to kill homosexuals does it not?

The Bible has many harsh punishments for those within the Theocracy of Israel. Why is it wrong? How do you judge a moral system as bad, good or better?
You can't examine the punishments of Israel Levitical law outside of its context. If you are sincere in knowing why, then there is some great literature.

I can't think of one possible scenario that makes it ok to stone people for their sexuality. There simply is no justification for it. And to say you can't examine it out of its context but you can still use it as a guiding principle for a basis of bigotry? That seems a little contradictory, right?

Prove it? Better? You are smuggling in objective morality to promote subjective. Who cares what things 'seem' like. Maybe to someone else, might is right seems better. Who are you to force your 'better' moral code on anyone. That is plain arrogance. Your code is subjective. That means it is you. Who do you think you are to determine 'better?'

Sure, I'd agree to that, because I can't rely on an overall rule that applies to everyone like you can. And someone who thinks rape and murder is ok is free to think that, and we will be at odds with each other, but that's just the nature of the world we live in. I don't need absolutes to answer my questions for me.

Of course. I hope these discussions at least made him rethink his beliefs.

Still atheist, so re-think might not be the right words. What I've heard here is a lot of world view/philosophical based argumentation that hasn't really swayed me to think, on a practical level, that God must exist. It seems many have conceded that there is no way to prove God exist in any practical way and have resorted to these types of arguments because they are easier to put in philosophical brackets but I'd feel disingenuous if I started believing in God without being able to give a scientific or practical reason as to why I've made that decision and arguments like "morality is obvious, it had to come from God" haven't made enough of an impact to detract from that major section of my atheism.

So I'm sometimes unfairly on guard because of negative experiences. I'm just so frustrated with the fact that I see evolutionary indoctrination everywhere. Whether I want to read up about interpersonal relationships, or manual transmission in motor vehicles, I always somehow come across a direct or indirect reference to our alleged ape-like ancestors.

Evolutionary indoctrination? Please go on. Evolution is something I love to talk about, I've done plenty of reading on my own about and its the one area of science that I think I have a fairly good grasp on. It really has me sold, it just makes sense to me in so many ways. Also, I find a few subtopics of it (like Chromosome 2 and the Laryngeal Nerve) to be pretty interesting to look at from a 'young Earth' point of view, because in that context it is really difficult to make any sense unless God was intentionally messing with us.

Also, I've heard some truly terrible understandings of evolution that make sense as to why someone would doubt it given that incredibly horrible understanding of it. For example, the last time I spoke about evolution on a forum, the guy I was arguing with thought that, according to evolution, that apes spontaneously birthed a human baby and then that human baby found another miracle human baby and started the human race. Just down right silly.

Anyways, I'll try to keep up with the post again, sorry for the long departure.

[Reactionary]

I'm back!

Hello again, KenV, I'm glad to see you back.

Use to be as in I was until I was 11 or 12 and met someone who wasn't religious, which in turn made me think about it and decided it didn't make much sense. Hasn't made much sense to me ever since. I probably was never a Christian as some people here would refer to it, I just know at one point in my child hood I just accepted that God was a real thing, like Santa Claus, did the whole praying bit and everything. The point being, I wasn't raised as an atheist.

But you obviously weren't raised as a Christian either.

So the whole deal here is that you believe we need something higher to give us morality because we can't make it our own, but you also believe that we have an inherent sense of morality (...) The existence of moral laws does seem basic and obvious. But I don't think they need to have been given to us, I think that as a species we are born with this inherent knowledge for one evolutionary purpose or another. Morality is a guiding principle in keeping your offspring from dying, to work as a team, to get the desire to have and raise kids. It has a purpose, just not a divine one.

KenV, we can't make our own morality. It either exists and makes sense, or it doesn't. If it's true that it doesn't, there's nothing we can do to change it. We can live a delusion that we're good or moral, and that what we're doing has a purpose, but let's be honest with ourselves, that would be a lie. I don't understand how you can see the existence of moral laws from an evolutionary point of view, for me that would be just an arrangement of chemicals that makes us think that way. And as such, it has as much purpose as any other chemical reaction in the universe - pretty much none. Regarding morality, when you look at it in more detail, you can see that it involves a lot more than "keeping your offspring from dying", which is a ridiculously reductionist view. Especially since we humans are reasonable beings, who can transcend the chemicals in our brain and come to the conclusion that we're all about to die, including our offspring, and that without God we're all obviously doomed. An eternal life is the only kind of purpose I can see. This, of course, is not the reason why I believe in God, but if I were an atheist, at least I would be honest enough to admit that, from the atheist perspective, life is meaningless.

I can't think of one possible scenario that makes it ok to stone people for their sexuality. There simply is no justification for it.

I agree. But why do you think that way? From an evolutionary/naturalistic point of view, people with different sexual orientation don't produce offspring, and as such, are not useful to our society. All kinds of atrocities have been done throughout the history, but let's face it, the evolutionary/naturalistic worldview can't condemn any. Fortunately, I don't adhere to it.

Sure, I'd agree to that, because I can't rely on an overall rule that applies to everyone like you can. And someone who thinks rape and murder is ok is free to think that, and we will be at odds with each other, but that's just the nature of the world we live in. I don't need absolutes to answer my questions for me.

Fine. However, if you don't involve absolutes, your opinion will remain only your opinion, i.e. an arrangement of chemicals in your brain, a product of your evolutionary heritage. Which would be meaningless, as I've pointed out.

Still atheist, so re-think might not be the right words. What I've heard here is a lot of world view/philosophical based argumentation that hasn't really swayed me to think, on a practical level, that God must exist. It seems many have conceded that there is no way to prove God exist in any practical way and have resorted to these types of arguments because they are easier to put in philosophical brackets but I'd feel disingenuous if I started believing in God without being able to give a scientific or practical reason as to why I've made that decision and arguments like "morality is obvious, it had to come from God" haven't made enough of an impact to detract from that major section of my atheism.

In other words, you don't believe in philosophy - this seems to happen very often in Christianity vs. atheism debates. Not being able to refute the Aristotelian/Thomistic philosophy, naturalism just discarded philosophy in general, meanwhile not offering a basis for knowledge. Building science on naturalism is like building a house without foundations - if we reduce our thoughts to mere chemicals in the brain, then where's the reason to trust them?

Evolutionary indoctrination? Please go on. Evolution is something I love to talk about, I've done plenty of reading on my own about and its the one area of science that I think I have a fairly good grasp on. It really has me sold, it just makes sense to me in so many ways.

You see, this is where we disagree. I consider myself a reasonable person, and I make my life decisions based on reason. As such, I reject with aversion the idea that I'm an animal guided by its instincts, which evolution degrades us to. Sure, a human can behave like an animal - in fact, this is starting to happen more and more, as it's easier to go down the ladder than up. For me personally, that very idea is an insult. When I help someone, I do it out of altruism - I lose my time, patience, and/or money (survival advantages) for someone else, without seeking anything in return. When I talk to a girl, I don't secretly want to produce "offspring" with her, I'm just being sociable. I've seen people sacrificing their lives for their homeland and people, they went against their survival instincts so they could ensure them a safe and peaceful place to live. When I contemplate the human altruism and love for one another, it's very obvious to me that there's much more to it than animal instincts. Maybe you just haven't experienced that...

Also, I've heard some truly terrible understandings of evolution that make sense as to why someone would doubt it given that incredibly horrible understanding of it. For example, the last time I spoke about evolution on a forum, the guy I was arguing with thought that, according to evolution, that apes spontaneously birthed a human baby and then that human baby found another miracle human baby and started the human race. Just down right silly.

Wasn't that theory known as "punctuated equilibrium"?

[neo-x]

KenV on Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:33 pm

I'm back!

Welcome back