how do you interpret Hebrews 6:4-6

[Anonymous]

Well you will never be able to prevent all sin and so I would say willingly could also refer to not wanting to sin as some sin is done without even thinking, such as insults and swearing. I try not to get angry but it happens, and frankly i don't think its something i would be able to prevent.

[August]

Jac,

My interpretation is that it refers to those who once knew God, but their conversion was not permanent, and now show deliberate rejection of God. Temporary faith is possible (Mk 4:16), but once that faith withers, only by God's grace can that person be saved, since no other mechanism exists for him to be saved again, he already had it, and rejected it.

[Kurieuo]

I'd agree with August... but add that it is an outworking of total apostacy to the point one turns against God. I raise this thread again as I came across a certain passages in Hebrews 10 I'd simply like to add:

• 26For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
  ...
  36For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise: 37"For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry. 38Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him." 39But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

What does drawing back here mean, if not drawing back from one's faith in Christ, that is, turning apostate?

Kurieuo.

[Zoe]

I love the internet. I went online looking for a discussion board concerning OSAS to get some feedback. ALL feedback is welcome, and prayerfully filtered. I was raised Southern Baptist, was baptized young (didn't know what it meant) later said "the sinner's prayer" at age 13, and was discipled somewhat for a few years during middle and high school. I promptly fell away from my faith my senior year of high school, and remained that way until I was 30. Now I am 33, and after 3 years of trying to gain back the lost years I spent in sin and rebellion, I recently discovered, apart from any outside instruction and solely through the teaching of the Holy Spirit, that OSAS could possibly be a false teaching.

My question is this: do I stay where I am? Do I confront my pastor and teachers, who still teach that a selfprofessing Christian who is blatant sin for long periods of time is still "saved and going to heaven" but that they will be missing out on blessings now and rewards later? I don't believe any of this anymore, and even my close friend who is my accountability partner today, in the middle of the bible study that we lead in my home, argued with me that I was getting to "obessed" and consumed by the whole OSAS issue.

I told her that I had no doubts that an enduring faith is what is required to enter the Kingdom of God. I have poured over scripture extensively and prayed much about this. But does anyone see any biblical precedent for me remaining where I am if my church doesn't feel the same way?

I have to say, my friend thinks I am being deceived by Satan and me considering leaving our church, etc is SIN and not God's will. I told her that me staying, after I've spoken GOd's truth using His Word, and seeing no change of teaching, would be sin. Am I wrong? Maybe I am too close to this and need an objective opinion.

Keeping the faith...Zoe

[The edge]

KJV

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Heb 10

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Jesus will not die again to get you out from under what He already died to get you out from under.

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

I've read somewhere, I think by Ironside that the falling away refers to the Jews who'd heard the message of the gospel, journey with the disciples, seen the miracles as well as the blessings, but later refuse to accept Christ. This they do by publically renouncing their fellowship with the Christian by trodding on the blood of swine & likening it to the blood of Christ.
Further explanation as follows:
1) these people only tasted but did not "swallow" the heavenly gift & the word of God. Remember a passage somewhere else in the bible where God asked a prophet to eat a scroll, but he refuse intitially & instead just left it in his mouth. Thus they did not fully accept & internalise God's truth.
2) Partakers may mean being in the fellowship of the disciples & enjoying the experience as encountered by others.

Another idea about the passage on Heb 10:27. The fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation refers to the lack of assurance, not salvation, for those who don't walk obediently.

[JBirdAngel]

i didnt read all of this, and maybe i should, but every perosn even christians willfully sin, everyday, a Christian still sins, and probably gets more upset about it when they do, but they still willfully do it, they still make the choice to sin... i hate it so much that i would choose to sin, to yell or swear at those i love, or the milions of other sins i commit all the time, but i dont think it good to make yourself think that your sinning isnt willful... that could make one think then it isnt their responsibility... everything we do is our choice... we do willfully sin.... its unfortunate, and for those of us allowed to go to Heaven, hopefully we are all one of these people, ther we will finally be free from sin...

[Kurieuo]

I love the internet. I went online looking for a discussion board concerning OSAS to get some feedback. ALL feedback is welcome, and prayerfully filtered. I was raised Southern Baptist, was baptized young (didn't know what it meant) later said "the sinner's prayer" at age 13, and was discipled somewhat for a few years during middle and high school. I promptly fell away from my faith my senior year of high school, and remained that way until I was 30. Now I am 33, and after 3 years of trying to gain back the lost years I spent in sin and rebellion, I recently discovered, apart from any outside instruction and solely through the teaching of the Holy Spirit, that OSAS could possibly be a false teaching.

My question is this: do I stay where I am? Do I confront my pastor and teachers, who still teach that a selfprofessing Christian who is blatant sin for long periods of time is still "saved and going to heaven" but that they will be missing out on blessings now and rewards later? I don't believe any of this anymore, and even my close friend who is my accountability partner today, in the middle of the bible study that we lead in my home, argued with me that I was getting to "obessed" and consumed by the whole OSAS issue.

I told her that I had no doubts that an enduring faith is what is required to enter the Kingdom of God. I have poured over scripture extensively and prayed much about this. But does anyone see any biblical precedent for me remaining where I am if my church doesn't feel the same way?

I have to say, my friend thinks I am being deceived by Satan and me considering leaving our church, etc is SIN and not God's will. I told her that me staying, after I've spoken GOd's truth using His Word, and seeing no change of teaching, would be sin. Am I wrong? Maybe I am too close to this and need an objective opinion.

Hi Zoe,

Firstly welcome to the boards and I hope you stay around. With regards to the OSAS issue, regardless of belief, I think it important for any Christian church to recognised disagreements under orthodoxy. That is, the OSAS issue while being open to debate, is an issue upon which whatever someone believes, that someone still remains within orthodox bounds of Christianity since it is non-essential to the Gospel.

Now whether you stay I think should be based upon whether you can live with the difference of opinion others take, and whether they are able to accept your difference in position. If there is tension and animosity because of your difference in belief, I'd personally be inclined to find another church that is more grace oriented and can accept disagreements under orthodoxy. Sadly, many churches want their congregation to conform to all their beliefs so this can be a hard task. Yet, in the long run, I think Christ would want all Christians to love and accept each other despite disagreements over non-essential doctrines.

Kurieuo.

[Anonymous]

God would be a fool if He designed man's redemption and eternal life on a man's daily habits. I mean, a fool if He wanted us to stand better than a 50/50 chance of success.

Sin one day - lose it. Do good tomorrow, get it back.

That would lean toward salvation by works and not of grace.

But God, so wise, allowed us to be born of "seed". And seed is permanent, just as God made our earthly father's seed permanent in our souls.

[Kurieuo]

I'd like to stress that just because someone doesn't advocate a OSAS doctrine, it does not mean they believe someone can whimsically loose or gain salvation day-to-day, or not be assured of it.

Kurieuo.

[August]

I'd like to stress that just because someone doesn't advocate a OSAS doctrine, it does not mean they believe someone can whimsically loose or gain salvation day-to-day, or not be assured of it.

In addition to what Kurieuo says above, I'd like to add the following:
Rom 8: 13 “… if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: “
Does this mean you can lose salvation? This is a warning to all, to examine their lives. Don't confuse the Biblical doctrine of Eternal Security with the false doctrine of Carnal Security.

The real question we examine here is this: "Is it possible for a person who has been truly saved to lose their salvation?" The resounding Biblical answer is "NO!". Salvation is of the LORD—What the LORD does is perfect and permanent. The TRULY saved cannot be lost.

However, we must avoid giving false security. Much of what has been written, preached, and taught in favor of eternal Security is dangerous, because it is incomplete, and can lead to a false sense of security. This false sense of security, combined with what is often in our day a very shallow and incomplete presentation of the gospel, leads to apostasy on a grand scale by those who were never truly saved. These false believers don't have salvation, but they have made a profession of faith, and probably have identified with a local congregation. Their life has no fruit and no root, but they trod along, resting on a false foundation. There really is such a thing as a false doctrine of eternal security. There really is such a thing as "carnal security" or "hell insurance".

Salvation is 100 percent a work of God. God saves sinners, we do not save ourselves. Salvation is a permanent change of state. You cannot lose salvation, but you can deceive yourself into believing you are saved when you are not.

We must also distinguish between planning to sin, premeditating the wrongdoing, and occasionally stumbling and sinning. Christianity is not a lifestyle-independent faith, how you live is an indication of your spiritual state.

[j316]

I think August has the right idea about the issue, but some one made a good point about all this happening in one's life. Life is full of possibilities and we really don't what will happen and which way we may move or be moved. What is paramount is where you are in relation to Christ at the time of your death, because afterward there is no more choice.

In view of the fact that most of us don't know the hour of our demise then we must stay focussed on the means of our salvation, not trusting to interpretations of scripture but trusting the author of scripture. The bible won't save you and neither will your denomination, the only certainty is to find a relationship with He who can.

Many people seem to be happy following a church or pastor, I think that is an error. Churches and pastors are fellow travellers, not saviors. The bible is a signpost, the good news is of salvation, not salvation itself. Many are looking in the wrong direction, don't be one of them.

[Felgar]

August is right, though it does present the big problem of how to know whether one is initially saved. Regardless, this thread http://discussions.godandscience.org/viewtopic.php?t=59 on osas is much more complete, plus has contributions from Jac whom I very much agree with.

In particular, Jac's first post (about 5 down) is a really good explanation of salvation. Zoe, as much problem as you have with OSAS, I have with the reverse position - that we must somehow maintain our justification. That position is simply a faith+works doctrine, and that's where the Jews went wrong, and it's also contrary to biblical teaching. Check out that post of Jac's.

[voicingmaster]

I was born and raised Christian, but went Pagan for couple years until I saw the error of my ways. Then I came back to Christ. But, does this mean that I'm lost forever no matter what, according to the passage in Hebrews?

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

What is this OSAS doctrine?

[Felgar]

What is this OSAS doctrine?

"Once Saved, Always Saved." Check out the first page of the other thread.