The Epicurean paradox

[Gman]

"God loves you" If so, whence come pain, sorrow and evil? For all who preach here, I give you Epicurus

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is wicked. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

"But God gave humans free will" If God is omnipotent, it knows all motion of all matter, therefore it knows our future, leading to the conclusion God created all motion and future. Therefore any pain and suffering caused is a direct cause from God.

Why all the pain? In a nutshell.. It's because of man's sin.... It is man who want's war... It is man who wants evil... G-d can't do much until we turn to back Him. He did not create robots. Man must be willing to submit to His authority in order to preserve life..

Want to stop evil in this world? Then stop sinning....

As written by the prophets..

Hosea 4:1-3

1 Hear the word of the LORD, you people, because the LORD has a charge to bring against you who live in the land:“There is no faithfulness, no love, no acknowledgment of God in the land. 2 There is only cursing, lying and murder, stealing and adultery, they break all bounds, and bloodshed follows bloodshed. 3 Because of this the land dries up, and all who live in it waste away; the beasts of the field, the birds in the sky and the fish in the sea are swept away.

[Empty Lord]

"Why all the pain? In a nutshell.. It's because of man's sin.... It is man who want's war... It is man who wants evil... G-d can't do much until we turn to back Him. He did not create robots. Man must be willing to submit to His authority in order to preserve life..

Want to stop evil in this world? Then stop sinning.... "

As i've already stated, since we're assuming that God is OMNIPOTENT therefore this God created and knows all motion. What i'm saying here is: God created our actions and/or knows all of our future and current actions. If God does NOT know all motion, why call it omnipotent? Id call it a powerful alien being, instead of a "God"

Therefore, fundamentally it is God who 'programmed' our sins, so who is at fault here? The creation, or the creator? You decide.

[August]

"God loves you" If so, whence come pain, sorrow and evil? For all who preach here, I give you Epicurus

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is wicked. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

"But God gave humans free will" If God is omnipotent, it knows all motion of all matter, therefore it knows our future, leading to the conclusion God created all motion and future. Therefore any pain and suffering caused is a direct cause from God.

Your definition of evil is question begging. Evil is that which transgresses the laws of God. By which standard do you wish to define evil?

Your conclusion does not follow your premise. "Is he able, but not willing? Then he is wicked" is an untrue statement. God has a morally sufficient reason for all that occurs, which He tells us: Rom 8:28

With no pain, how shall we know happiness? With no sorrow, how shall we know gladness? With no evil, how shall we know good?

The objection is empty.

[Alpha~Omega]

God does love us, this is seen in his word, and around us. This pain is a resultant of an imperfect world (man+natural processes), created as a sort of deciding ground. Free will plays a major part in this, God wants free will beings to love him, he does not want to twist their will and make them love them he wants them to CHOSE to love him, this must also allow for the possibility to not love him, and to do the exact opposite of his will, which is evil.

We do not use "coldness" to measure temperature, rather, we use thermal units, and depending on the energy present, we get higher or lower temperatures. Evil then, is simply just the absence of good, man chooses to do evil thus the resultant is not a tyrannical God, but one that allows for the possibility to reject good and do evil. However, man does have to answer for their deeds, no one is going to get away with being evil.

Knowing and controlling are two very different concepts, and to say that knowing is controlling is loaded with some pre-conceived notions. For instance, take for example your computers monitor, it has been idle for 9 minutes and is about so go into screen saver mode. This is something you know will happen for sure, but is it you who sends the computer in to its idle state? No, its the computer that initiates this.

[Empty Lord]

"God loves you" If so, whence come pain, sorrow and evil? For all who preach here, I give you Epicurus

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is wicked. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

"But God gave humans free will" If God is omnipotent, it knows all motion of all matter, therefore it knows our future, leading to the conclusion God created all motion and future. Therefore any pain and suffering caused is a direct cause from God.

Your definition of evil is question begging. Evil is that which transgresses the laws of God. By which standard do you wish to define evil?

Your conclusion does not follow your premise. "Is he able, but not willing? Then he is wicked" is an untrue statement. God has a morally sufficient reason for all that occurs, which He tells us: Rom 8:28

With no pain, how shall we know happiness? With no sorrow, how shall we know gladness? With no evil, how shall we know good?

The objection is empty.

My definition of evil is simple, the complete contradiction of love, thus my initial quote "God loves you". If God loves you, why does he ban you to an eternity of hell? Irrelevent to what your actions may be. Unconiditional love is lacking from God.

Morality is subjected to perception and opinion, using this reasoning, I shall ignore this.

Paradise, Utopia. Complete and utter human perfection. If God is omnipotent, he can give us such paradise. Without making us suffer.

[wrain62]

"God loves you" If so, whence come pain, sorrow and evil? For all who preach here, I give you Epicurus

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is wicked. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

"But God gave humans free will" If God is omnipotent, it knows all motion of all matter, therefore it knows our future, leading to the conclusion God created all motion and future. Therefore any pain and suffering caused is a direct cause from God.

Are you trying to deny that God is loving? I suppose when you see people die in vain in disasters and when you see wicked suffering makers thriving to old age you would think that God who allows this must not be loving. After all, if you loved the world, would not you be the hero every time calamity comes and immediatly punish the wicked when they cause suffering? But then there would be no room left for us to have choices that mean anything, materialistic growth and advancement would be halted and we would literally be like cows getting punished when we eat from our neighbors food bin, and spiritual growth would not have meaning either. To put it simply, pain and death gives us meaning to be a loving community. We should grief over its existence but not hate the very existence of pain and evil; but instead fight it with conviction. Otherwise this world is just fluff. A truly loving God instead of a superficially loving God would allow pain and evil.

God is not the direct cause of it either, he knows our suffering but does not intercede most of the time because we are not meant to have worthless free will. This might all be hard to wrap our heads around, I will admit. I can´t know for sure his absolute purpose but I give you what a mere high school student posits. If you are trying to judge our God, let me ask you to not. Please.

[Empty Lord]

"God loves you" If so, whence come pain, sorrow and evil? For all who preach here, I give you Epicurus

Are you trying to deny that God is loving? I suppose when you see people die in vain in disasters and when you see wicked suffering makers thriving to old age you would think that God who allows this must not be loving. After all, if you loved the world, would not you be the hero every time calamity comes and immediatly punish the wicked when they cause suffering? But then there would be no room left for us to have choices that mean anything, materialistic growth and advancement would be halted and we would literally be like cows getting punished when we eat from our neighbors food bin, and spiritual growth would not have meaning either. To put it simply, pain and death gives us meaning to be a loving community. We should grief over its existence but not hate the very existence of pain and evil; but instead fight it with conviction. Otherwise this world is just fluff. A truly loving God instead of a superficially loving God would allow pain and evil.

God is not the direct cause of it either, he knows our suffering but does not intercede most of the time because we are not meant to have worthless free will. This might all be hard to wrap our heads around, I will admit. I can´t know for sure his absolute purpose but I give you what a mere high school student posits. If you are trying to judge our God, let me ask you to not. Please.

I do not judge something I believe does not exist. I'm merely challanging your intelligence. Materials, growth and advancement, what do they mean? Nothing. You will die and turn to dust once your time has come. Assuming that heaven is true, then I shall assume it is paradise. Why does God play with us mere insects just to sweep some off to paradise, and others to hell? Lets take a truely horrid life, complete misery and sorrow, what it is the point of a living existence of pain and suffering, when God can give you paradise? No. I do not see how God can be loving when a life of complete horror and utter sorrow can exist.

[Stu]

"God loves you" If so, whence come pain, sorrow and evil? For all who preach here, I give you Epicurus

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is wicked. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

Evil comes from man -- we do and act as we please every single day.
In other words free will is a fundamental aspect of life, without it we would be mere puppets and God the puppet master, is that what you would prefer?

If you choose to drive your car while drunk and in doing so hit a child walking to school -- is it God's fault? No of course not, it is yours. The same applies to Hitler and Pol Pot.

"But God gave humans free will" If God is omnipotent, it knows all motion of all matter, therefore it knows our future, leading to the conclusion God created all motion and future. Therefore any pain and suffering caused is a direct cause from God.

What if God chooses to interact with us in the moment?
From the time he created Adam he chose to interact with his creation within our perception of time as it unfolds day by day. As Moses navigated the desert so too did God accompany him in the moment. God created the universe and earth and gave it to us to run and manage as we see fit. He follows us as we lead our day to day lives as he did in the past with Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden.

Determinism is not a part of Christianity; this however does not mean God never interacts within our lives and world.
I might be wrong but I think a religion that subscribes to that idea would be Islam; everything occurs according to God's will.

[spartanII]

"God loves you" If so, whence come pain, sorrow and evil? For all who preach here, I give you Epicurus

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is wicked. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

"But God gave humans free will" If God is omnipotent, it knows all motion of all matter, therefore it knows our future, leading to the conclusion God created all motion and future. Therefore any pain and suffering caused is a direct cause from God.

Your definition of evil is question begging. Evil is that which transgresses the laws of God. By which standard do you wish to define evil?

Your conclusion does not follow your premise. "Is he able, but not willing? Then he is wicked" is an untrue statement. God has a morally sufficient reason for all that occurs, which He tells us: Rom 8:28

With no pain, how shall we know happiness? With no sorrow, how shall we know gladness? With no evil, how shall we know good?

The objection is empty.

My definition of evil is simple, the complete contradiction of love, thus my initial quote "God loves you". If God loves you, why does he ban you to an eternity of hell? Irrelevent to what your actions may be. Unconiditional love is lacking from God.

God's love isn't separate from his wrath.

[Reactionary]

My definition of evil is simple, the complete contradiction of love, thus my initial quote "God loves you". If God loves you, why does he ban you to an eternity of hell? Irrelevent to what your actions may be. Unconiditional love is lacking from God.

Exactly, it's your definition, made by your mind. In atheism, who cares about how molecules move and react in your brain, I have mine.

By the way, God doesn't send you to hell, you do. God respects your free will so much that, if you decide to reject His love, He will fulfill your wish.
And since God is absolute love, His absence is exactly the opposite - hell.

Paradise, Utopia. Complete and utter human perfection. If God is omnipotent, he can give us such paradise. Without making us suffer.

Who says He can't? We only know that He didn't, and it's not difficult to understand why. Gman and August explained the reasons adequately.

I do not judge something I believe does not exist. I'm merely challanging your intelligence.

Without God, there is no intelligence. How would one explain intelligence or knowledge if our thoughts are mere chemical reactions, byproducts of random atom movement?

Why does God play with us mere insects just to sweep some off to paradise, and others to hell?

Why do you keep blaming God? He doesn't send you to heaven or paradise, you are the one who does. You make the decisions. Unlike in atheism, determinism is not a part of Christianity, as Stu already pointed out.

Lets take a truely horrid life, complete misery and sorrow, what it is the point of a living existence of pain and suffering, when God can give you paradise? No. I do not see how God can be loving when a life of complete horror and utter sorrow can exist.

80 years of earthly life, compared to an eternity, are very close to nothing.

P.S. I'd be curious to see how you explain "horror" or "sorrow" within the framework of your worldview.

[kmr]

This is, unfortunately, a very 2-dimensional point of-view. "If God doesn't stop evil, then he is either wicked, or not God." Obviously, God looks at the whole picture. The final world after the suffering and evil has abated will be far better than if would be if there had been none at all.... the bible infers this in many ways.

[wrain62]

This is, unfortunately, a very 2-dimensional point of-view. "If God doesn't stop evil, then he is either wicked, or not God." Obviously, God looks at the whole picture. The final world after the suffering and evil has abated will be far better than if would be if there had been none at all.... the bible infers this in many ways.

That was what I ws trying to convey, too. Evil and suffering give meaning to grace and forgiveness. I wish there was a "like" button on these posts. If there was then you got mine.

[August]

My definition of evil is simple, the complete contradiction of love, thus my initial quote "God loves you". If God loves you, why does he ban you to an eternity of hell? Irrelevent to what your actions may be. Unconiditional love is lacking from God.

So you are now changing the argument. First your question was about the omnipotence and all-loving characteristics of God, now it turns out it is nothing but an emotional complaint. If you wish to argue assuming the characteristics of God, then you must accept all of the definitions that come with it, and not argue from some arbitrary nonsense.

But I'm glad to see that you acknowledge that we cannot know evil if there is no love. Now you just have to account for why both exist, and how, from a non-theist perspective you want to judge things as evil or loving.

Morality is subjected to perception and opinion, using this reasoning, I shall ignore this.

Very good, let's just ignore the answer that destroys your empty objection. If you wish to have an intelligent discussion, using your statement above, then we await your argument for morality that is not perception and opinion. Please be sure to include your premises and conclusions.

Paradise, Utopia. Complete and utter human perfection. If God is omnipotent, he can give us such paradise. Without making us suffer.

He did. We messed it up. He will again. That is the hope that is in us. Breaking laws have consequences. Love cannot be unfair or unjust, or it is not love.

So let's recap, since I see further down that you wish to challenge our intelligence, which I interpret as being our logic. Your objection can logically be stated as:
1. God is completely powerful.
2. God is completely good.
3. Evil exists.

You have not shown 3. to be true, you have just asserted it. What is evil? Do you believe evil exists? How? Please define it, and show your reasoning for the existence of objective evil, and your ability to identify, define and judge it. Saying it is an absence of love is a nice little soundbite but is not an argument.

But let's assume for the sake of argument that your 3. is correct, and that it creates a contradiction. The Christian response is simple, if we assume 1. and 2. to be true, as you have to in order for the objection to stand, then we can logically conclude that:

4. God has a morally sufficient reason for the evil that exists.

God is the standard of good, as per 2., so to object against 4. means that you also reject 2., and your argument collapses.

As I said, the objection is empty, and logically fails on both internal and external grounds.

[DannyM]

My definition of evil is simple, the complete contradiction of love, thus my initial quote "God loves you". If God loves you, why does he ban you to an eternity of hell? Irrelevent to what your actions may be. Unconiditional love is lacking from God.

On atheism, your view of evil is neither right nor wrong. You’re just using what is your own perception of reason to come to your own definition.

How do you know there is not a limit to your reason, that it is not limited by some genetic determinant? This is the one reason for your denying God. It’s not that our argument is false; your mind acting differently is what’s really behind your disagreement. What if I’m actually part of a line of humans that is evolving at a much more progressive rate than you, and I’ve evolved in such a way that I have a superior knowledge to you? Ultimately, and on your terms, no premise can be false. You’re effectively here just wasting your life.

[Empty Lord]

Okay, so i'll post a direct reply to all the unanswered replies later on tomorrow, half asleep so i'll just make a general post.

What most, if not all failed to understand is that i'm assuming that God is omnipotent, I shall explain what this word means; Unlimited power "1.A deity is able to do absolutely anything, even the logically impossible, i.e., pure agency." Taking this reasoning into play, Once God creates something he could either do:

Human A, God created Human A's entire future and everything and anything inbetween, everything is static and already 'written' to happen.

Human B, God created Human B without writing or knowing his/her future, but wait? Thats a logically invalid statement, I shall illuminate, God = G knowning = K

If (G=K) is true and (G=Not K) = true, that is a paradox, while omnipotence is accepted to be logically impossible and a paradox to hold true, therefore coming to a conclusion that speculation on this matter is pointless. Because we're but mere humans with limited minds. We cannot comprehend a being of omnipotence.

So, if a human decides to try and understand omnipotence and label its actions with human ideals, that is invalid, is it not? Therefore since you believe the bible is inspired by the logic of God that is the only foundation I will work on. Your own idea of what God may think will prove to be invalid ( Or prove me wrong).

SO! if you read that chunk of text, now my arguement can come into play "God loves you" whence cometh evil? If there is a truly horrid life, lets say a young woman grown up with bandits and used as an object (theoretical) isn't that lacking of any love?

Also, taking into account that God is infact omnipotent, and not just a powerful alien creature, I shall state this: Raw speculation will never hold a known to be true answer, therefore such speculation is pointless. Thus, I want replies based on the bible, since it would be a foundation of evidence if it truly is inspired by God.

If I wrote something that contradicts me, feel free to bluntly point it out, 3:35am currently *yawn*.