Hell and an Agnostic Atheist

[B. W.]

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Part One comments on your (cheezerrox's) prior answers/post

I am going back to your earlier post and finish addressing that one first regarding 2 Samuel 14:14. This verse explains an established biblical principle that has nothing to do with universalism.

“…For we will surely die and become like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away a life; but He devises means, so that His banished ones are not expelled from Him.” 2 Samuel 14:14 NKJV

Story Line – Absalom in the bible is described as ruthless vain person who sought to overthrow his Father King David and kill him. I won’t go into the incident before chapter 14 except that Absalom fled from David because of what he had done and was said about him. A plan was devised in which the King could watch and test his son’s heart and very cleverly put forth to King David by a wise woman – a prophetesses wise in the ways of Yahweh. That was why she was chosen.

After the discourse, King David sent for Absalom and had him reside in the place for two years before see him. In effect – banished him, under watch, to see what was in his heart. In Absalom heart was destruction due to burning a field which led to an audience with King David. After this, Absalom banished himself away from the king and hid in seen acts of subterfuge, and began to scheme and developed a conspiracy to overthrow the King and kill him.

Absalom, it is interesting to note, refused to listen or seek Good’s counsel as well as often manipulated religion jargon ( 2 Sam 14:32 ) to suit his schemes. King David, on the other had sought God’s counsel, repented when wrong and corrected. Absalom only listened to the counsel and advice of men that fed his vanity, pride, ambition. His father, King David sought the Lord and God’s counsel, and repented of sins: Big difference between the two men.

The point of all this is that David was testing Absalom to see what was in his heart. A good ruler should seek God's counsel and ways first in order to rule wisely. Now, while Absalom was in the Palace, he was being observed for two years to see if he was eligible to rule correctly by testing to see whom he would seek counsel from and what he did. Absalom’s heart was being tested to see if he would seek God’s counsel/ways, or seek ungodly advice from men whom fed pride. If Absalom would have repented of pride/wrong seeking, etc, the banished one would have been able to return fully to his place in the palace. If not, what was in the heart would be made known, and as it turned out, Absalom died in an unrepentant banished state.

Main Point

The wise woman set forth a principle in verse 14 and it is quite prophetic too. So you’ll understand it better - I’ll break the passages down so you can see it…

"…For we will surely die and become like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again" ( Genesis 2:17 - Ezekiel 18:20 - Romans 5:12 – Our mortalness dies - and we cannot of ourselves remake our flesh and return to this mortal state again)

"Yet God does not take away a life" ( Zechariah 12:1 - Isaiah 42:5 - Ecc 3:14 - Hebrews 9:27 - Ecc 12:7 note -Breath is the word spirit too bad the NET misses this - Ezekiel 26:20 - Ezekiel 32:19-32 – There is Spiritual part to us which is the real us that separates from the body after we die, faces judgment, and will either reside up where the Lord is, or down where the beastly go because during this life this test is set forth - Ecc 3:18. Our spiritual being continues on because: one – it is God’s gift from himself to us, two – his gifts, promises, callings are without recall. Three - God will not deny himself. Though the mortal flesh dies, the spiritual essence continues own – forever)

"...but He devises means, so that His banished ones are not expelled from Him." 2 Samuel 14:14 NKJV

The means devised are a test for those whom are banished which is fallen humanity as the bible states in the folowing verses: Genesis 3:24, Romans 5:12-14, Psalms 14:3 Banished away from God in a place where God seems far away, yet very close by, to see whom will seek God’s counsel and guidance and who will not and how ( Ecc 3:18-19, Psalms 10:4, Psalms 14:2 ) .

The means devised so that one is not expelled forever ( Isaiah 57:16, John 3:14-19, James 5:20 ) is by the work of Jesus Christ on that cross and resurrection into new life. This new life is called eternal life, that is reconciled/restoring one back to live with God forever. This is how people get confused – bible teaches and warns that sinners do have an eternal spirit.

However, will one’s eternal spirit find eternal life with God or eternal ruin in banishment? See the difference? This is not universalism at all. There is a difference between eternal life and eternity placed in the heart when we were born. Both are eternal, yet, one requires one to become Born Again into eternal Zoe -life (with God reconciled, restored, transformed out of darkness into light).

So, God banished humanity away from the Garden of Eden into a world of our own making to see who seeks after God or who seeks after the world, and in a way, very symbolic of how Absalom was tested. We think God is afar off, yet, he is very near, ( Psalms 11:4-7 ) seeing if we’ll burn things ( 2 Sam 14:30 ) i.e. rely our own works to reach him, or repent of pride/sin/every ruinous way.

The means devised, was Jesus Christ to show us the way back to God as mediator between God and man. Only Jesus can change an Absalom into a new creation, only if such Absaloms will take Christ Godly counsel ( John 14:16 - John 14:17 - John 14:18 – John 16:13 ) forsaking their own counsel and counselors. If not, such die and awake forever banished into a place that exposes what is truly in their heart. Please note: Jeremiah 17:5 - Jeremiah 17:6 - Jeremiah 17:7- Jeremiah 17:8 - Jeremiah 17:9 – Jeremiah 17:10 - what do these verses reveal? )

That’s the sermon lesson for today – for you all reading this.

And Cheezerox, regarding your next post I see you are having trouble with the word translated destruction. The word has a wide array of usages in both Hebrew and Greek and refers most often to a state of ruin, not annihilation into non-being. For, if God did annihilate into non-being, those whom he fashioned as special morally reasoning beings, this would cause him to deny his gift of life to them. This God will not do. Hell, both the current and the future hell of the Lake of Fire, Jesus warned to avoid at all cost. I’ll trust his words and not the counsel of men. Look at the end of Absalom who died forever banished away from the King…
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[B. W.]

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Part Two of comments on your prior answers/post

…Isaiah 14:9 is explained as well by what I said above for Isaiah 38:18. If you look at Isaiah 14:11, it specifies that Sheol is simply the state of death that all living things face, as it states that "maggots are spread out as your bed beneath you and worms are your covering." Obviously, this is describing the state of physical death, which is something all life faces. Then, on to Isaiah 14:15, again, this is explained well by what I said for Isaiah 38:18.

These verses contradict your interpretation:

Isaiah 14:9 "Hell from beneath is excited about you, To meet you at your coming; It stirs up the dead for you, All the chief ones of the earth; It has raised up from their thrones All the kings of the nations." NKJBV

Isaiah 14:10 , "They all shall speak and say to you: 'Have you also become as weak as we? Have you become like us?" NKJV

The dead are described as the chief ones and kings of nation and they shall speak – I did not know nonexistent nothingness spoke?

Proverbs 9:18 also says nothing about eternal torment at all. It says the dead are the guests of the woman of folly; or in other words, those in Sheol. If the point being made is that since it is obviously only speaking of the wicked when it means the dead, that Sheol is only a place of the wicked dead, then I'd say that's not accurate. Death and the dead are commonly used by the Bible to refer to those who are wicked, and in their sins. Sheol is referred to specifically for the wicked in some instances, but it is also referred to as a place where the righteous go as well, like Joseph and Jesus. It's all about context, and in this context, it means specifically the wicked.

The bible does teach that there are two parts to Sheol-hell. One called Abraham’s Bosom for the righteous and the other place was called various ways as the Pit, Hell, Grave, Lowest Hell, Darkness, etc, for the unrighteous, and it was where Deut 32:22 mentions God’s wrath burns.

Proverbs 7:27 says of Folly’s house: "Her house is the way to hell, Descending to the chambers of death." NKJV - Which indentifies the part of hell that 9:18 mentions. The word chamber is used 43 times in 33 verses in the OT and all mention chamber like rooms and even the inner most stomach.

This verse states that there are chambers (inner rooms – small enclosures) of death in Sheol. Ezekiel 32 I quoted is the realm of the unrighteous dead and describes sheol’s pit. It is described as round, with graves (Burial chambers, room like sepulchers of great grief) embedded into its walls going back into the deep recesses of this pit. Please do your own key word study of the Hebrew words used in this text as our English translations do a poor job uncovering the Hebrew imagery of this place. Those there are described as bearing their own shame (guilt, dishonor, humiliation). It is not a happy place nor does it describe a place of non-existence because those there see, feel, shout, and hear. Why mention that Pharaoh see’s in verse 31, if there is no cognizance in sheol?

Ezekiel 26:20 sets forth a principle – people of a city going to a place alive after they die where others reside alive. Point is - if they went alive so shall others later on...

Deuteronomy 32:22 speaks of God’s wrath as burning like the furnaces of the earth. Therefore sheol sounds painful would it not? This lines up with what Jesus said about hell. Also, the inside of the earth denotes great pressure. Job 26 I quoted mention great pressure below the great waters – bottom of deepest sea which indeed causes, rocks to melt like it does around the earths core. You have the imagery of the text explaining one another, connecting. You should try to stop applying that western scholastic mindset I spoke earlier of to these text.

Isaiah 38:18 For Sheol doth not confess Thee, Death doth not praise Thee, Those going down to the pit hope not for Thy truth.

Those suffering under the pressure and shame they caused in hell – would not be praising or confessing God, nor would they be hoping in God’s truth known about them would they – how could they? Only those who are mortally alive and those deceased in Abraham’s Bosom (or in heaven with God per NT promises) can and will praise God, confessing him, and resting in his truth as the context indicates. Again, common sense of having bible interpret bible helps expose the truth. Suggest people try it sometime because it clears the air.

As for Jacob – he would have resided in Abraham’s Bosom anyways. That is the same area of sheol Jesus went too - Abraham’s Bosom ( Psalm 16:10 and Acts 2:31, Ephesians 4:8-10 ).

Matthew 22:31-32, "'But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God: "I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB, He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

That is true. It suggests God is a living God who does not destroy into non-being one’s eternal spirit that he gave a person. Those righteous will be with him ( Luke 23:43 ) and those who are not – go elsewhere not very pleasant as other bible text indicate..

This should answer all your comments in your first answers to the verses I referenced…

Isaiah 38:18 does seem to make Sheol seem to be a place only for the wicked, at first glance. But, for one, then what about Genesis 37:35? Are you willing to argue that Jacob is in Hell right now? And then there's Psalm 16:10 and Acts 2:31. Did Messiah Yeshua Himself go to Hell? But, even going past this, as I said before, let's look at the context of this verse. Surely death cannot praise God, for as the next verse says, "It is the living who give thanks to You, as I do today". It is just as Jesus says in Matthew 22:31-32, "'But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God: "I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB (remember Genesis 37:35?)"? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.'" Notice how at the beginning, the Lord says "regarding the resurrection of the dead". I believe He has made clear the point I am trying to make. While the righteous do go to Sheol as well as the wicked, being that all go there eventually, those whom are servants of the Most High are regarded as living and not dead. Jacob indeed went to Sheol when he died, yet in Exodus 3:6 says long after he died, that He is the God of Jacob. This would also explain Proverbs 9:18 better, because usually when Sheol and the dead are referred to, it means the wicked dead, as they are not regarded as alive to the Lord, for they are forever spiritually dead. While they will be resurrected, they will then face judgement and finally, the second death. But, as stated before, context is crucial.

[B. W.]

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Part Three continued from my post above;

To answer some of your points regarding Ecc 9

Remember, bible interprets bible – both Old and New Testaments testify clearly that after one dies, their spiritual being in judged and continues on in cognizance either with the Lord or in a place called hell. That is one reason the writer Psalms 55 said this:

Psalms 55:15, "(55:16) May He incite death against them, let them go down alive into the nether-world; for evil is in their dwelling, and within them." JPS – That's pretty plain language used here of both death and arriving alive into the nether world…

I gave you many of these verses and you cannot toss them out when you come to passages like Psalms 37:9, 10, 20 – Ecc 9:1-6 – Psalms 88, Isaiah 38:18, etc… or you’ll have proven a contradiction beyond all doubt. I am posting below a modified/edited response written on this forum back during 2008…

...Let’s look at Ecclesiastes 9:1-6 and actually discover what it is saying contextually…

Ecclesiastes 9:3 ESV, “This is an evil in all that is done under the sun that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.”

Notice it says – they go to the dead… interesting – where do the dead go? Bible elsewhere describes where, sheol, cognizant placed in a congregation mentioned in Proverbs 21:16 , The man that strayeth out of the way of understanding shall rest in the congregation of the shades. JPS

In such a place, the unrighteous are described cognizant as Job 26:5 states – revealed by word translated tremble – writhe, pained, grieved, vexed, etc… Interesting – look at all the verses I quoted in parts one and two as well of this thread. Next, read…

Ecclesiastes 9:4-5, “But he who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.”

What does this all mean? Soul sleep – annihilationism? Or something else? Look at the imagery first:

He who is joined to the living Lord has hope. Sinners were classed as dogs to the ancient Jewish people and in fact a woman said to Jesus, even the dogs eat crumbs from the master’s table illustrates this point. Therefore what is being said in verse 4 is simple God transforms those, who were likened like a mangy flea bitten dog, into a new creation i.e. Born Again and have joined themselves to the Lord of all living. Bible tells us that God changes wretches like us into kings and priest and are now remembered inscribed in the book of life.

However, those that join death’s lion and share its pride have no hope. Recall: Satan roars like a lion seeking whom to devour. Principle message from verse 4 is clear: join yourself to the living Lord and forsake the pride of the dead lion.

Why – because: Ecclesiastes 9:6 answers, “Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.”

This is telling us that those who have departed have no more share in the land of mortals. Who is being mentioned: All people or those who join the Lion’s pride? The context explains who – those who die without hope – the unrighteous connected directly by context linked to whom Ecc 9:3 clearly describes.

This means such persons have been cut off from mortal life, and are now separated from it; no more can they share in the mortal state of the flesh. Instead they found a place where the wicked have no rest, a place where the dead lion devours, where they are banished from God and hope forever. Where they are held in punishment awaiting the resurrection of the dead which raises the existing spiritual body of a person to his/her final domain.

Look again at Ecc 9:6, “Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun: Explains what is forgotten and why no memory on earth will remain of such persons mentioned as they have no more share in anything done under the sun – in other words they do not come back to this planet. This mortal life under the sun they'll know nothing about any more. Think of it another way - the movies have it all wrong - Freddie Kruger and Jason the killers can’t come back to life for revenge…

I do not want to sound rude but go to a graveyard and read these verses out loud and you may get a better understanding of what these verses mean and note which graves have the most flowers compared with those that do not. How many people lived in ancient times or even 200 years ago? Are not their thoughts and dreams forgotten? No memory of them remains. Unless there were famous and even then, time moves on and their history will fade too. That is what Ecc 9 and Ps 37 and 88 refer too...

That is what Ecc 9:1-6 is revealing. We who are still mortally alive will forget the dead and their lives forgotten by us. That is the context of Psalms 37:1-20 and Psalms 89 as well. Ps 37 refers to the wicked becoming no more on earth. The memory of such vanishes from those who are alive in the flesh as time passes.

In Fact, Ezekiel 32:19-32 describes the cognizant fate of those who caused woe in the land of the living as soldiers in the bad part of Sheol/Hell’s pit. They did not vanish from God’s sight but only ours. For example, we who are alive in the flesh right now have no memory of the name of the head charioteer in Pharaohs’ army, do we? Or the names of Ottoman Turks who butchered Christians during WW 1 – do we? So like smoke, the wicked are no more, memory of them vanishes here on earth, but in Hell, there they remain, cognizant…there eternal spirit (shade) still alive.

Bible passages that suggest that the unrighteous dead are no more, or vanish are applied to the realm of mortal living. It is from the flesh/blood mortal world that they are no more part of and vanish from. Psalms 37:20 is easily taken out of context from context Psalms 37:1-2 begins with, which speaks of the wicked being cut off from this mortal flesh and blood life. Such cannot return from the dead to continue to cause harm. This Psalms does not say what happens after they are cut off from the land flesh/blood mortal living.

The book of Job records the same sentiments… see verse 9 and note context pertains to mortality.

Job 7:8 "The eye of him who sees me will behold me no longer; Your eyes will be on me, but I will not be."
Job 7:9 "When a cloud vanishes, it is gone, so he who goes down to Sheol does not come up."
Job 7:10 "He will not return again to his house, nor will his place know him anymore."
Job 7:11 "Therefore I will not restrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit, I will complain in the bitterness of my soul." NASB

Psalms 88 and also contains the same sentiments as well.

Bible explains bible and after one dies comes judgment Hebrews 9:27, a person’s spiritual essence, the real them, continues on either with the Lord ( 2 Corinthians 5:6c) or banished forever away from the Lord. In the banished place, they are cognizant as Job 26:5, Ezekiel 26:20, Ezekiel 32:19-32, Luke 16:19-30, Matthew 25:41, 46 speak of.

To imply that this does not happen, denies the verses that clearly speak of everlasting contempt, recompense, to the wicked and produces contradiction.

Note on the Psalms 37:20 NET translation from the NET version uses a poor choice of words. The word translated incinerate is not in the text but was implied by the translators. The word is the Hebrew is kālāh – consume, vanish, complete failing: it is a verb which means to complete, to accomplish regarding end, finish, or failing. Its primary meaning implies to consummate, to bring to completion – not incineration.

Kālāh is used twice in the text but not place next to each other as the verb word die is used in Genesis 2:17 and 3:4 (shall die-die) for emphatic definition. But rather smoke is place between the two words. Emphatic incineration is not implied because a word separates from the other Kālāh by a noun (smoke). The meaning changes to the wicked meeting their just end in this mortal life, and vanish from it: Nothing to do with the state of the afterlife they'll face.

Go back to verses 1 and 2 - Psalms 37:1-3 - for context as it points to how such things (the evil wicked) are viewed from a mortal perspective, how they fail and meet their mortal end from a mortal perspective: They’ll vanish from mortal life and they will be forgotten by those mortals living in the future - that is their end in mortal life.
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