John Wesley's theology

[neo-x]

I believe that anyone can be saved if they believe in Christ and follow him.

Here I pasted it again.

[neo-x]

neo-x wrote:
They are not his sheep because of their unbelief...


Actually, it says that have unbelief because they are not his sheep. You have the cause and effect backwards.

Actually in Romans 11, it reverses back again.

[jlay]

I must first point out that 1 John 2:2 gives no place for Arminianism. Christ is either the propitiation for the sins of the whole world (without exception), or he is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world (without distinction). The former would result in Universalism, whereas the latter (the correct interpretation) is Calvinism. The Arminian version would have to limit the actual propitiation to a possible propitiation, contingent upon our accepting it. This simply does not appear in the passage.

PL, I think in enough past conversations with myself and more so, Jac, you know this isnt' the case. As in universal justication versus universal salvation.

An arguments against Calvinism is not specificall an argument for Arminianism.

If anyone wants a different perspective
http://ichabodthegloryisdeparted.blogsp ... ersal.html

[August]

Can you answer the questions with a straight forward yes or no? Your argument here demands it.

I have given you a straight answer. You can categorize me anyway you like. I said what I said.

That is not a straight answer. Yes or no would be straight answers. I'm not categorizing you, I am trying to understand where you are coming from.

[neo-x]

puritan lad on Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:05 pm

neo-x wrote:
I am not undermining election, neither did Wesley;

Yes, you are...

No, I'm only undermining the Calvinist definition of election. You can read the earlier posts in this thread and one is of Wesley's quotes as well, which talks about what he thought of election.

[neo-x]

August on Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:21 am

neo-x wrote:
Can you answer the questions with a straight forward yes or no? Your argument here demands it.


I have given you a straight answer. You can categorize me anyway you like. I said what I said.


That is not a straight answer. Yes or no would be straight answers. I'm not categorizing you, I am trying to understand where you are coming from.

August, will everyone be saved? Only if they believe. Can everyone be saved? yes they can if they come to Christ. Did God gave his son for all? yes he did.

[DannyM]

Neo, if God sent His Son to be the propitiation for the sins of the whole world then the whole world is saved. Simple.

1 John 2:2 is the last text you want to stand on.

[neo-x]

neo-x wrote:
Ever fell of a tree or fell in a river without knowing how to swim. In that moment you know and would love a helping hand to come and rescue you. That is hope. No rocket science is needed to evaluate that hand in that moment. The same happens to a man who is enabled by God.

Does God merely enable the man, or does he save him?

He enabled all through Christ, those that believe will be saved.

[neo-x]

DannyM on Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:25 am

Neo, if God sent His Son to be the propitiation for the sins of the whole world then the whole world is saved. Simple.

1 John 2:2 is the last text you want to stand on.

Danny you are assuming that "propitiation for the sins" means "saved". No, it is only the half part. Now they have to believe in Christ as well. God does not condemn someone because they sinned but rather who didn't believe in Christ as in this case, the rest doesn't matter.

[neo-x]

puritan lad on Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:09 am

neo-x wrote:
The contradiction exists, regardless of the fact that can't see it.

Sorry neo-x, that doesn't cut it. Do you know what a contradiction looks like? See my previous response to B.W. If you see a real contradiction, then you must show it.

Would you answer this, PL
"My question is simple, why does God do a general calling, unless he wants to play the mean kid on the ant hill, I don't see how he would do this."

[August]

August on Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:21 am

neo-x wrote:
Can you answer the questions with a straight forward yes or no? Your argument here demands it.


I have given you a straight answer. You can categorize me anyway you like. I said what I said.


That is not a straight answer. Yes or no would be straight answers. I'm not categorizing you, I am trying to understand where you are coming from.

August, will everyone be saved. Only if they believe. Can everyone be saved, yes they can if they come to Christ. Did God gave his son for all, yes he did.

Ok, so is this fair?
1. Only believers are saved
2. Anyone can believe IF they come to Christ
3. God gave His Son for all
4. From 1. Non-believers are not saved

How do you reconcile 3 and 4? They stand in tension: Unbelief is a sin. God gave His Son for all the sins of all men, which would include unbelief. Then your 1. does not hold?

[DannyM]

Brother Neo,

John 17:2,4,6,9 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.

4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do.

6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.

9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.

Could Christ have said “I am not praying for the world” if He had died for the sins of all men everywhere? How could Christ die for the sins of all men head for head and yet not pray for them? Christ came as a sacrifice, and He intercedes for those whom He came. So if Christ came as a sacrifice for all men, why does He not pray for all men?

[neo-x]

puritan lad on Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:14 am

neo-x wrote:
if you were to write to your fellow country men, would you refer to your country's people who are abroad as "the whole world"?

Yes. We do this all the time. The "whole world" mourned the loss of Princess Diana. (Does that mean that every single person mourned? I have to admit, as part of my sinful heart, that I hardly gave it a second thought.)

Because there is no context involved, PL.

[DannyM]

DannyM on Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:25 am

Neo, if God sent His Son to be the propitiation for the sins of the whole world then the whole world is saved. Simple.

<A class=NETBibleTagged href="javascript:{}" alt="1 John 2:2">1 John 2:2</A> is the last text you want to stand on.

Danny you are assuming that "propitiation for the sins" means "saved". No, it is only the half part. Now they have to believe in Christ as well. God does not condemn someone because they sinned but rather who didn't believe in Christ as in this case, the rest doesn't matter.

Neo, I already responded to this here:

Neo, there are no conditions to be met.

Ephesians 1:3-14
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,

4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight

9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ

10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.

13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Could the scriptures be any clearer, brother? Before the foundation of the world, God chose us to be holy and blameless. In Christ we are redeemed through His blood, forgiven our sins - it is done!

Which brings us back to Christ being the propitiation for our sins:

hilasmos

properly, propitiation; an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party. (hilasmós) is only used twice (1 Jn 2:2, 4:10) – both times of Christ's atoning blood that appeases God's wrath, on all confessed sin. By the sacrifice of Himself, Jesus Christ provided the ultimate /hilasmós ("propitiation").

Strong’s:

propitiation, sin offering
Atonement, i.e. (concretely) an expiator -- propitiation

1 John 4:7-12
Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.

8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him.

10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.

God loved us first, and He loves us so much that He sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. It is effectual, my brother - it is done!

[neo-x]

DannyM on Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:36 am

Brother Neo,

John 17:2,4,6,9 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.

4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do.

6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.

9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.


Could Christ have said “I am not praying for the world” if He had died for the sins of all men everywhere? How could Christ die for the sins of all men head for head and yet not pray for them? Christ came as a sacrifice, and He intercedes for those whom He came. So if Christ came as a sacrifice for all men, why does He not pray for all men?

Brother Danny, the world here applies to those who don't believe. The meaning is the same. It is consistent. He was talking about his apostles, not you and me. Have you kept the word brother Danny? always and always? No. Then you can see that you would not qualify for the last part. Christ was still go on the cross and from there it was for all, Jews, Gentiles, Greeks, Romans. As a matter of fact. If you apply the same meaning to 1 John 2:2, you will see what I am saying.

Christ is not praying for the world, because they still have to believe in him. Those who have believed and are with him are being prayed for by Jesus. And those who believe are no longer of the world. Simple.