John Wesley's theology

[neo-x]

God loved us first, and He loves us so much that He sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. It is effectual, my brother - it is done!

But it is by faith you are saved, brother Danny. Stop believing and see where that goes. Had you not believed, God's atonement for you would have had no effect.

[DannyM]

yes, but no where it says that God's grace is limited to the sheep and not to the Goat. Show me where the scripture says, God will only SAVE the ELECT and NO ONE ELSE.

Scripture:

John 10:15
just as the Father knows me and I know the Father— and I lay down my life for the sheep.

John 10:26
but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

Christ doesn't say. you are not my sheep because you do not believe, He says, you do not believe because you are not my sheep

Here Christ is effectively saying:

I die for my sheep
You are not of my sheep
Therefore, I am not dying for you

[August]

God loved us first, and He loves us so much that He sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. It is effectual, my brother - it is done!

But it is by faith you are saved, brother Danny. Stop believing and see where that goes. Had you not believed, God's atonement for you would have had no effect.

No-one is arguing that. Everyone needs faith. The argument in this thread is about how we come to faith, from within ourselves, or with the help of the Spirit. The sidetrack is the extent of propitiation.

[neo-x]

neo-x wrote:
God loved us first, and He loves us so much that He sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. It is effectual, my brother - it is done!


But it is by faith you are saved, brother Danny. Stop believing and see where that goes. Had you not believed, God's atonement for you would have had no effect.


No-one is arguing that. Everyone needs faith. The argument in this thread is about how we come to faith, from within ourselves, or with the help of the Spirit. The sidetrack is the extent of propitiation.

We can come if God calls us. In Christ he has called all. So yes, you can come to him. Since he already has issued the call. If you choose to believe the spirit will Guide you and help you. But the spirit will not throw your reason out of the window and automatically make you irresistible to grace. This is the part which has no concrete biblical support. Only parts that must be isolated and and assigned meanings will show some support to it. I'm not saying all of Calvinism is wrong, it has truths in it but far more contradicting elements that don't line up TULIP with the scriptures.

As PL said that TULIP is biblical, I guess anyone can say that for his own view, for that would make sense to him. But essentially one would have to see if it lines up with scripture all the way and not just the Calvinistic way.

[DannyM]

Brother Danny, the world here applies to those who don't believe. The meaning is the same. It is consistent. He was talking about his apostles, not you and me. Have you kept the word brother Danny? always and always? No.

What do you think keeping the word means, Neo?

Christ is not praying for the world, because they still have to believe in him. Those who have believed and are with him are being prayed for by Jesus. And those who believe are no longer of the world. Simple.

So on this Christ only prays for those who are His and, even though He wants to save the whole world, He does not bother to pray for them? And I take it that "world" here means "not of the world," just to suit your scheme?

Brother Neo, you are not digesting what is being put your way.

[August]

neo-x wrote:
God loved us first, and He loves us so much that He sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. It is effectual, my brother - it is done!


But it is by faith you are saved, brother Danny. Stop believing and see where that goes. Had you not believed, God's atonement for you would have had no effect.


No-one is arguing that. Everyone needs faith. The argument in this thread is about how we come to faith, from within ourselves, or with the help of the Spirit. The sidetrack is the extent of propitiation.

We can come if God calls us. In Christ he has called all. So yes, you can come to him. Since he already has issued the call. If you choose to believe the spirit will Guide you and help you. But the spirit will not throw your reason out of the window and automatically make you irresistible to grace. This is the part which has no concrete biblical support. Only parts that must be isolated and and assigned meanings will show some support to it. I'm not saying all of Calvinism is wrong, it has truths in it but far more contradicting elements that don't line up TULIP with the scriptures.

As PL said that TULIP is biblical, I guess anyone can say that for his own view, for that would make sense to him. But essentially one would have to see if it lines up with scripture all the way and not just the Calvinistic way.

If you read 2 or 3 or 4 pages back I already spoke about that. Not that you have to agree with it.

You may have also missed my answer to you with the 4 points in it. I'm curious to see your response.

Also, can you talk us through your understanding about the extent of the propitiation in the Biblical context? I know that there are a few of us asking questions, so if it is too much then I understand.

[DannyM]

God loved us first, and He loves us so much that He sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. It is effectual, my brother - it is done!

But it is by faith you are saved, brother Danny. Stop believing and see where that goes. Had you not believed, God's atonement for you would have had no effect.

Neo, propitiation is effectual. The post that went with that end statement is key to your earlier point, and you've just ignored it, brother.

[neo-x]

DannyM on Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:50 am

neo-x wrote:
yes, but no where it says that God's grace is limited to the sheep and not to the Goat. Show me where the scripture says, God will only SAVE the ELECT and NO ONE ELSE.


Scripture:

John 10:15
just as the Father knows me and I know the Father— and I lay down my life for the sheep.

John 10:26
but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

Christ doesn't say. you are not my sheep because you do not believe, He says, you do not believe because you are not my sheep

Here Christ is effectively saying:

I die for my sheep
You are not of my sheep
Therefore, I am not dying for you

Read Romans 11 with this and you will see. Paul explains it

Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith.

Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

[neo-x]

If you read 2 or 3 or 4 pages back I already spoke about that. Not that you have to agree with it.

You may have also missed my answer to you with the 4 points in it. I'm curious to see your response.

Also, can you talk us through your understanding about the extent of the propitiation in the Biblical context? I know that there are a few of us asking questions, so if it is too much then I understand.

I'll try to answer all. It is too much...lol...Anyways I will respond soon. I have to goto bed now, its pretty late here.

Cheers and God bless, we'll continue.

[DannyM]

DannyM on Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:50 am

neo-x wrote:
yes, but no where it says that God's grace is limited to the sheep and not to the Goat. Show me where the scripture says, God will only SAVE the ELECT and NO ONE ELSE.


Scripture:

John 10:15
just as the Father knows me and I know the Father— and I lay down my life for the sheep.

John 10:26
but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

Christ doesn't say. you are not my sheep because you do not believe, He says, you do not believe because you are not my sheep

Here Christ is effectively saying:

I die for my sheep
You are not of my sheep
Therefore, I am not dying for you

Read Romans 11 with this and you will see. Paul explains it

Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith.

Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Neo, and how does this contradict the Lord's words? What do you make of our Lord's words?

[DannyM]

If you read 2 or 3 or 4 pages back I already spoke about that. Not that you have to agree with it.

You may have also missed my answer to you with the 4 points in it. I'm curious to see your response.

Also, can you talk us through your understanding about the extent of the propitiation in the Biblical context? I know that there are a few of us asking questions, so if it is too much then I understand.

I'll try to answer all. It is too much...lol...Anyways I will respond soon. I have to goto bed now, its pretty late here.

Cheers and God bless, we'll continue.

Neo, you've been a soldier!

[August]

If you read 2 or 3 or 4 pages back I already spoke about that. Not that you have to agree with it.

You may have also missed my answer to you with the 4 points in it. I'm curious to see your response.

Also, can you talk us through your understanding about the extent of the propitiation in the Biblical context? I know that there are a few of us asking questions, so if it is too much then I understand.

I'll try to answer all. It is too much...lol...Anyways I will respond soon. I have to goto bed now, its pretty late here.

Cheers and God bless, we'll continue.

Thanks brother, appreciate the conversation. God bless.

[puritan lad]

PL, I think in enough past conversations with myself and more so, Jac, you know this isnt' the case. As in universal justication versus universal salvation.

An arguments against Calvinism is not specificall an argument for Arminianism.

If anyone wants a different perspective
http://ichabodthegloryisdeparted.blogsp ... ersal.html

So a person can be justified and not saved? How then can God say that the justified will be sanctified, and ultimately glorified?

[puritan lad]

August, will everyone be saved? Only if they believe. Can everyone be saved? yes they can if they come to Christ. Did God gave his son for all? yes he did.

Can antichrist be saved, or is he predestined to Hell?

[PaulSacramento]

I wanted to get an "outsider" view on predestination and the elect, so I asked an atheist friend of mine and a Jewish friend of mine to take a look at this thread and hare their thoughts.
You can well imagine, LOL !
The atheist basically said that IF there was a God and he elected some people for eternal damnation even before they were born that this God is far less moral than any imperfect human since he knows of no human that would condem anyone ( much less their "child") before they are even born.
The Jewish person asked me if I wanted to convert !
He mentioned that the God Of Abraham was far less cruel than this God that condemns those that have not even born to do something worth condemning.
I think he was serious about the conversion thing too...
Anyways, it was very interesting to hear their views on this.
I am gonna ask a muslim friend of mine to take a look too.